My new HT setup with Rs.2.5 Lakhs

[subhash]

Subhash -

Thanks for the explanation. Does that mean I don't need an AVR at all. I can get Pre-processor + Power Amp (Stereo or more channel as required) and can use it for my HT (5/7.1 channels) needs as well as my musical needs (stereo mode)?

as simple as that:yahoo:

but u may have to do this stage wise coz of budget

u cud start off with a pre/prosc , one power amp , L/R speakers of your choice and then add ons as and when wallet permits

 

[periyar]

These questions have been answered many times in these forums. Let me recap them for you.

A single channel sound system has multiple stages. The first is the source. If we take an analogue system, we have players such as a TT or a tape drive that sends analogue signals out. These signals have very low strength measured in millivolts and cannot be used as such. In stage two, a pre-amplifier takes these low strength signals and processes them for stage three. This processing includes enhancing the signal strength and some filtration to 'clean' the signal so to say. A pre-amplifier will also be able to understand the signal strength of various source devices (such as a turntable and a tape drive), differentiate between them, and process them differently. The output of a pre amplifier will vary from a few volts to as much as 10 to 15 volts depending upon the volume you set.

The processed and enhanced signal is sent to a power amplifier which is the next stage. A power amplifier is the 'dumbest' of all the stages. All it does is to take the incoming signal, and add juice to it by appending current to it. An amplifier has a fixed strength enhancing capability - what is usually referred to as gain. If you give it 2 volts as input it will output say 20 volts. If you want more output, you increase the input signal strength.

In the final stage, these signals are sent to the speaker for you to hear as sound.

This is the simplest of a sound system using a single channel analogue circuitry. In a stereo system, the complete circuitry is duplicated at each stage for two channels.

We will add a few complications to this sound system.

(1) A few years ago, again in a purely analogue system, noise cancellation or suppression methodology was added by a company called Dolby. In an analogue system, the Dolby processing is done at the source stage, so there is not much work for the pre-amplifier.

(2) Sometime ago, Philips introduced a new method of storing sound - in digital form instead of analogue form. So instead of tape drive, you now had a CD drive. The CD stores data in digital form and the CD Player had to convert the digital signals to analogue (DAC) before sending them to the pre amplifier. Some designers felt that a pre-amplifier is better suited to do the DAC, so many pre-amplifiers can accept digital signals, do a DAC first, then all the processing we discussed above.

(3) When we ventured into multichannel audio for movies, storing them in digital form was the only option. You now needed 6 channels of sound to be processed, so a surround sound processor (SSP) was born to replace the pre-amplifier. In addition, SSPs also had to undertake a new task - that of processing the video signals in addition to the audio signals. A SSP can accept coded digital signals, decode them, separate audio and video signals, do a DAC on each channel, and process each channel for further amplification.

The amplifier continues to be dumb. Now it amplifies upto 8 channels in a multi channel system as against two channels in a stereo system.

Pre amplifiers and SSP process sound in different ways. This has more to do with the final reqirement than any technology. In movies, the emphasis is on 'loudness' with a enhancement of low frequencies. Thus a SSP would focus on this and could even add a bit of distortion as the volume levels go up.

A stereo or musical pre-amplifier, on the other hand, will focus on delivery of clear and undistorted sound across the complete frequency range.

If you like music, using an AVR as a pre-processor and then amplifying it for music will not make much sense. As I said before, an amplifier is a dumb unit and all the important processing is done by the pre-amplifier or surround processor.

Cheers

Venkat -

Thanks a lot for the detailed explanation. I also read the other posts you have referred about Amplifiers, AVR, Processors etc., It was very informative and leading towards ideal path.

But there's some point I need to compromise on certain things due to several constraints (budget, space etc.,). As I mentioned earlier, I need to find that optimum point suitable for my needs and capacity. I am very much indebt to you guys all for the inputs/suggestions you are providing. Definitely, it influences my decisions towards setting up my HT system.

Once again thanks for all your inputs including the very informative old posts of yours.

Regards,

 

[Asit]

If you really are particular about music and want to do something about it, it will make more sense in improving the source and the pre-amplification. Not the amplification part of the chain.

Cheers

Venkat,

I agree partially, but not completely. I agree on the source and the pre-amp part. Certainly one needs to improve these parts.

But, one needs to improve on the pure amplification part also. Very very important. All amplifiers (I mean the power amp part) are not the same, there are some very good ones, and there are some very bad ones with high distortions and lack of dynamics with poor power supply, lack of isolation of channels etc etc.

Pure amplification is an old problem, but it is a very fundamental problem and good amplification is still a matter of art as much it is a matter of science and engineering. This needs a good design, good quality hardware and implementation. I'd expect a huge difference in the quality of amplification in a reasonable multi-channel power amplifier when compared to the power amp section of an all-in-one AVR (the ones being talked about here).

Please do not dismiss the pure amplification part as dumb, something that does not need any attention. Some people think it is THE most important part and use a passive pre-amplifier (basically just an attenuator for volume control) connected to a very good power amp as the purest form of amplification.

If the quality of pure amplification was not important, everybody including myself would buy only AVRs and use the direct mode to bypass any processing in the pre-amp section for 2-channel audio, and let the power section amplify and be satisfied. But I know many many people who bought AVRs costing in excess of 50K (sometimes much more than that) and are very unsatisfied with 2-channel music even in the direct mode. In this forum itself, there are many members citing the same experience. There is no point discussing these issues very much, one has to just use one's ears. If one is happy, there is nothing more to it.

Regards.

 

[periyar]

as simple as that:yahoo:

but u may have to do this stage wise coz of budget

u cud start off with a pre/prosc , one power amp , L/R speakers of your choice and then add ons as and when wallet permits

Thanks. So finally I found the path in which I'm supposed to travel to get the IDEAL solution.

Please suggest me a few brands and availability with the price if possible.

Thanks and Regards,

 

[odyssey]

Hi Periyar
The Pre/Proc route is the similar to the discussion that we had, instead of a pre/proc, I suggested using a receiver with a pre out for the Front L & R with something like the Operetta 2-channel (which you heard) and then using the receiver amp portion for the rest of the 3 channels. When you want to upgrade add an extra channel to the Operetta (upgradeable channel by channel) and then bypass the amp portion of the receiver and take the input to the operetta. The subs can be added independently. If you buy a pre/proc and not a receiver then the main thing you lose is the availability of an amp (though I agree that the quality of the amplification isnt that good), however pre/proc will generally cost more than similar featured receivers. This may not be intuitive as the receiver is a combo of the pre/proc + the amp (you get more in a receiver in a manner of speaking), however this is the volume game for the manufacturers. They probably outsell receivers by a big factor compared to the pre/proc. In fact, I cant think of a single pre/proc sold in India that will be at a similar price with similar features (like HDMI switching, full HD, number of video inputs, etc). yes, you dont need to worry about features that you dont use (like 5 HDMI inputs). If there is such a pre/proc in the market here, I would like to explore this option for a number of my other customers too. I also agree that the pre out section of such a standalone product may be better than the pre out for receivers.

So in summary, if you can find a pre/proc and go to an upgradeable amp like the Operetta, this can solve your needs plus provide an upraded path for you in the future. The sub is an idependent problem and you can add if you feel you need it. Like everything else, it comes down to what your budget is and where you want to compromise. If you can find a good budget pre/proc - great, otherwise in this pursuit, I feel you will end up compromising on the rest pr part of the downstream chain (since the price of the pre/proc will be high). Do let us know what you find

cheers
Sridhar

 

[subhash]

Hi Periyar
The Pre/Proc route is the similar to the discussion that we had, instead of a pre/proc, I suggested using a receiver with a pre out for the Front L & R with something like the Operetta 2-channel (which you heard) and then using the receiver amp portion for the rest of the 3 channels. When you want to upgrade add an extra channel to the Operetta (upgradeable channel by channel) and then bypass the amp portion of the receiver and take the input to the operetta. The subs can be added independently. If you buy a pre/proc and not a receiver then the main thing you lose is the availability of an amp (though I agree that the quality of the amplification isnt that good), however pre/proc will generally cost more than similar featured receivers. This may not be intuitive as the receiver is a combo of the pre/proc + the amp (you get more in a receiver in a manner of speaking), however this is the volume game for the manufacturers. They probably outsell receivers by a big factor compared to the pre/proc. In fact, I cant think of a single pre/proc sold in India that will be at a similar price with similar features (like HDMI switching, full HD, number of video inputs, etc). yes, you dont need to worry about features that you dont use (like 5 HDMI inputs). If there is such a pre/proc in the market here, I would like to explore this option for a number of my other customers too. I also agree that the pre out section of such a standalone product may be better than the pre out for receivers.

So in summary, if you can find a pre/proc and go to an upgradeable amp like the Operetta, this can solve your needs plus provide an upraded path for you in the future. The sub is an idependent problem and you can add if you feel you need it. Like everything else, it comes down to what your budget is and where you want to compromise. If you can find a good budget pre/proc - great, otherwise in this pursuit, I feel you will end up compromising on the rest pr part of the downstream chain (since the price of the pre/proc will be high). Do let us know what you find

cheers
Sridhar

hi sreedhar , there is one processor which i will be getting shortly ,its the marantz AV 8003 , its abt 80k in grey ,shud have had it by now, the only thing am holding back is waiting for user reviews of the Emotiva UMC-1 , which is much cheaper ( abt 700 USD) (roughly 50k with shipping)

 

[subhash]

wud like to add ---a pre/procs + poweramps combo wud best be suitable for dedicated HT room set ups only
not advisable for living room set ups

 

[odyssey]

Hi Subash
you are confirming my suspicion that there is nothing available at a budget price. The point I am trying to make is that it may make more sense to buy an AV receiver and only use the processor part of it as most features/capabilities that will be needed will be similar in performance. If one doesnt mind spending more on the pre/proc than thats fine, however if one goes that way with the budet limit that the thread starter has in mind, then a compromise is inevitable. In this particular case, I believe Periyar doesnt mind compromising a bit on the features/capabilities and instead will want to spend more on the speakers and external amp.
You cannot take the Emotiva since its not sold in India , service/support will remain an issue

cheers

 

[venkatcr]

I agree partially, but not completely. I agree on the source and the pre-amp part. Certainly one needs to improve these parts.

But, one needs to improve on the pure amplification part also. Very very important.

If the quality of pure amplification was not important, everybody including myself would buy only AVRs and use the direct mode to bypass any processing in the pre-amp section for 2-channel audio, and let the power section amplify and be satisfied.

Asit, there is no denying that a good design and build is important across the whole chain. But this thread was veering off into stating that 'power, power, and more power' was a global panacea for all evils. I just wanted the OP to understand the tasks that various units undertake in the chain. I am concerned for this hunger for power without understanding the needs and requirements. If selected, matched and configured properly, I have heard tiny amplifiers deliver beautiful music as well as medium sized AVRs deliver movies with enough punch.

When I said 'dumb' what I meant was in terms of processing intelligence. That the amplifier just takes an incoming signal and adds gain to it, nothing more.

BTW, when you use a Pure Direct mode in an AVR, you are not by passing the audio pre-amplification. What you are by passing are the video circuitry as well as display functions. The audio is pre-amplified unless you are pre-amplifying externally and feeding the AVR's amplifiers directly.

I am also amused by this constant bashing of AVRs. In a lengthy review that we had at home last week, my 875 beat a Marantz two channel amp hollow, and came neck to neck with a Cayin tube amp. Where the tube amp was slightly better was in wind instruments. And here also, the difference was in transient speed. Each note of a saxophone died quicker in the tube amplifier unless the artists wanted to extend a note, providing what one of participants called 'lushness'. This is not something that may people will recognise. But in terms of sound stage, accuracy, and handling of low frequencies, the 875 was neck to neck with the Cayin. In reality, the 875 had better low frequency (without any sub) handling, but it is a known fact that SS amps are better than tubes when it comes to handling low frequencies. Even at very low volumes, both amps were able to present all the instruments very clearly. Again, this, in my mind, was a function of the speaker's greatness than the amps's.

I am using a pair Audire IO2 speakers that Sharath and Sandeep have been kind enough to send to me for extended review.

Cheers

 

[sidvee]

I agree with sridhar - for a given price point - usually under $1000 -$1200, typically a pre and a rcvr (pre section) is quite similar in movies soundtrack performance and - depending on the brand - it may be quite close for music as well(Obviously there will be exceptions - the emotiva, nuforce etc). Typically rcvr makers skimp on the power section. So unless one is considering a mega buck pre, vfm proposition will be rcvr+ future amp route.
Cheeers
Sid

 

[subhash]

Hi Subash
you are confirming my suspicion that there is nothing available at a budget price. The point I am trying to make is that it may make more sense to buy an AV receiver and only use the processor part of it as most features/capabilities that will be needed will be similar in performance. If one doesnt mind spending more on the pre/proc than thats fine, however if one goes that way with the budet limit that the thread starter has in mind, then a compromise is inevitable. In this particular case, I believe Periyar doesnt mind compromising a bit on the features/capabilities and instead will want to spend more on the speakers and external amp.
You cannot take the Emotiva since its not sold in India , service/support will remain an issue

cheers

ya definetly sreedhar ,no pre/processor is available @ a budget
all of them availble here (denon /onkyo )are on the north side , marantz cud be caught up ,but in grey
emotiva seems the one in budget ,as u say not sold here , but its not an issue to source one

but then its new in the market (yet to be released, no user reviews as yet)
and got to be careful with the BUG:sad: issues too

so a compro wud be to use the pre of the avr

 

[periyar]

wud like to add ---a pre/procs + poweramps combo wud best be suitable for dedicated HT room set ups only
not advisable for living room set ups

This could be the issue in my case that I am not currently (Am not sure even in future) having a dedicated HT room :sad:. I will be using my living room to watch movies and listen to music.

So, considering my setup, would you suggest me to go for AVR + Power Amp instead of Pre/Processor + Power Amp?

 

[periyar]

Asit, there is no denying that a good design and build is important across the whole chain. But this thread was veering off into stating that 'power, power, and more power' was a global panacea for all evils. I just wanted the OP to understand the tasks that various units undertake in the chain. I am concerned for this hunger for power without understanding the needs and requirements. If selected, matched and configured properly, I have heard tiny amplifiers deliver beautiful music as well as medium sized AVRs deliver movies with enough punch.

When I said 'dumb' what I meant was in terms of processing intelligence. That the amplifier just takes an incoming signal and adds gain to it, nothing more.

BTW, when you use a Pure Direct mode in an AVR, you are not by passing the audio pre-amplification. What you are by passing are the video circuitry as well as display functions. The audio is pre-amplified unless you are pre-amplifying externally and feeding the AVR's amplifiers directly.

I am also amused by this constant bashing of AVRs. In a lengthy review that we had at home last week, my 875 beat a Marantz two channel amp hollow, and came neck to neck with a Cayin tube amp. Where the tube amp was slightly better was in wind instruments. And here also, the difference was in transient speed. Each note of a saxophone died quicker in the tube amplifier unless the artists wanted to extend a note, providing what one of participants called 'lushness'. This is not something that may people will recognise. But in terms of sound stage, accuracy, and handling of low frequencies, the 875 was neck to neck with the Cayin. In reality, the 875 had better low frequency (without any sub) handling, but it is a known fact that SS amps are better than tubes when it comes to handling low frequencies. Even at very low volumes, both amps were able to present all the instruments very clearly. Again, this, in my mind, was a function of the speaker's greatness than the amps's.

I am using a pair Audire IO2 speakers that Sharath and Sandeep have been kind enough to send to me for extended review.

Cheers

Venkat -

It seems that even Sridhar and Subhash feel that I can settle down for AVR instead of looking for Pre/processor due to several reasons - cost, availability, support, lack of dedicated HT room etc.

Please let me know your comments on this part.

Regards,

 

[subhash]

This could be the issue in my case that I am not currently (Am not sure even in future) having a dedicated HT room :sad:. I will be using my living room to watch movies and listen to music.

So, considering my setup, would you suggest me to go for AVR + Power Amp instead of Pre/Processor + Power Amp?

sure why not?

a compromise, but you still will be very much satisfied

 

[venkatcr]

It seems that even Sridhar and Subhash feel that I can settle down for AVR instead of looking for Pre/processor due to several reasons - cost, availability, support, lack of dedicated HT room etc.

Please let me know your comments on this part.

I have never said no to a good AVR !! I have also maintained that using AVR for music and a stereo amp for movie is a compromise either way. But yes, given budget and other constraints, many people choose one or the other.

Given the fact that you are going to use the living room for music/HT tasks, you will have a certain amount of human traffic as well collateral noise. You have to live with this.

I would suggest a two pronged process. Don't spend all of your 2.5 for now, and go in for a HT system based on a reasonable AVR such as a Denon or a Marantz. I would not go in for a Yamaha or an Onkyo as you may find (at least the lower versions) a bit harsh.

Sometime down the line get a CD Player and a good two channel amplifier to be used separately for music. If you buy a good pair of speakers now, you can use a simple switch later on to use the same speakers for both Ht and for music.

Cheers

 

[Asit]

Periyar,

Venkat was exactly saying the opposite, I thought. He was talking in terms of improvement at the pre-amp and the processing stage and also at the source. The power part did not need any improvement in Venkat's opinion.
This is where I made my complaint and got rebuked by Venkat for constantly bashing AVRs (an allegation he has to prove). Well, he is the expert, I am just a novice. However, Sidvee also said it is the power section that is compromised more in an AVR. Accordingly, the suggestion made by Sridhar and Subhash for you is to use an AVR for pre/pro and use a separate power amplifier (multi-channel I suppose, but 2-channel to start with?). This is NOT what Venkat said, as far as my uncultured uneducated always-bashing mind can see. Somebody please explain.
Regards.

 

[subhash]

Thanks. So finally I found the path in which I'm supposed to travel to get the IDEAL solution.

Please suggest me a few brands and availability with the price if possible.

Thanks and Regards,

seems like u wud be going the AVR /power amp route
for FLRS
apart from ushers , which u have already heard and liked ,i wud suggest u cud also chk out

-PSB synchrony 2
-morduant short-mezzo 8 ( audio planet ,koramangala)
-jamo C809 (cinebells , millers road)
-polk audio ,some Ls series(cant remember the exact model) , this speaker sounded very good , had heard it in profx ,mg road ,it was kept at the ground floor
-also chk with sreedhar for the emerald physics (cud be slightly costlier)

these range from 1 to 1.5 Lakhs , but all of these are huge ,placement in living room cud be a concern

lets not confuse periyar further , give him some more good options for FLRS and AVRs :lol:

 

[sidvee]

Guys - just to put things in perspective - 6-7 years ago I had a state of the art (for that time) HT setup in my basement in Detroit (was living in the US). Preamp was a B&K ref50 ($3000) power amp was a Parasound HCA 1205 A ($2000) and a HCA 1000A ($700) - speakers were B&W DM series ($4000 for &7.1, projector was a panasonic Ptae100 ($1700)and screen was a dalite permwall HCCV ($600). Along with other ancillary equipment and a dedicated 20'x 14'x 8' room I spent cose to $20,000. Ok it sounded great. Then when I was moving back to India 2 years ago, I first sold the pre and power amps and temporarily replaced with a used Pioneer Elite 52vsx receiver that cost me $1000 as I did not want to bring the power amps back with me to India(voltage issues etc). Guess what the $1000 rcvr sounded at-least as good as the $5700 pre-power for movies. I mean I did not feel like I was missing anything, ok maybe the explosions were not as dynamic, but you know what they were pretty darn good. Where the rcvr. lost out was in music and that too was because of the amp section. Since then I realized that unless you have a huge space read 30 feet by 20 feet by 8 feet or something in that range, and super high end speakers and a huge budget read $50,000 - most of the $1000 recievers will be good enough for majority of the home theaters. That being said if one can afford separates then they should go ahead but beware of the law of diminishing returns. Anyways this my opinion only - so now I will spend big bucks for a music only system but am happy with a reciever based system for movie watching.
Cheers
Sid - sorry for the long winded post:sad:

 

[subhash]

Guys - just to put things in perspective - 6-7 years ago I had a state of the art (for that time) HT setup in my basement in Detroit (was living in the US). Preamp was a B&K ref50 ($3000) power amp was a Parasound HCA 1205 A ($2000) and a HCA 1000A ($700) - speakers were B&W DM series ($4000 for &7.1, projector was a panasonic Ptae100 ($1700)and screen was a dalite permwall HCCV ($600). Along with other ancillary equipment and a dedicated 20'x 14'x 8' room I spent cose to $20,000. Ok it sounded great. Then when I was moving back to India 2 years ago, I first sold the pre and power amps and temporarily replaced with a used Pioneer Elite 52vsx receiver that cost me $1000 as I did not want to bring the power amps back with me to India(voltage issues etc). Guess what the $1000 rcvr sounded at-least as good as the $5700 pre-power for movies. I mean I did not feel like I was missing anything, ok maybe the explosions were not as dynamic, but you know what they were pretty darn good. Where the rcvr. lost out was in music and that too was because of the amp section. Since then I realized that unless you have a huge space read 30 feet by 20 feet by 8 feet or something in that range, and super high end speakers and a huge budget read $50,000 - most of the $1000 recievers will be good enough for majority of the home theaters. That being said if one can afford separates then they should go ahead but beware of the law of diminishing returns. Anyways this my opinion only - so now I will spend big bucks for a music only system but am happy with a reciever based system for movie watching.
Cheers
Sid - sorry for the long winded post:sad:

man if i was u , i wud have got everything back with me whatever the issue:licklips:

 

[sidvee]

I know Subhash - letting go of the parasound HCA 1205a was especially painful but being that it was 120v I would need a huge stepdown to service its 1kw - 5channel output, not to mention its 80lb weight.
Cheers
Sid