My New TT : The Cello from Scheu Analog

[Asit]

3.Please enter the Scheu dealer info for our future reference

Jochen Semler, The Listening Room, Bangalore

4.Any idea about dealers of Clearaudio, VPI and McIntosh in India as they are very popular in the above $1000 region.

Clearaudio used to be distributed by the Soundsmiths in Bombay, but I do not see Clearaudio any more in their website. I do not think anybody is dealing with Clearaudio at the moment in India. Manav Malvai should know, because he owns a Clearaudio TT.

As posted by Bluu, VPI is sold by Sridhar, ARN Systems, again in Bangalore. I have heard the VPI Classic at Vasu's place. It is solidly built and is very very good, but in a different price bracket.

I am not posting here Sridhar's and Jochen's numbers, unless they allow me to. But these numbers should be available with a lot of people on the forum through private communications.

It's a pity that Rega has pulled out of India. The Pune dealer was very unresponsive. I tried with Nova to get the price of RPM 5 for one year, and also tried with the Pune dealer of Rega, but did not get any information on repeated calling.

The Goldnote Valore was also in my radar. My impression was that it costs a bit more than the Cello. In addition, there was very little information available on it on the net. There was quite a lot on the Scheus, and mostly quite good.

Regards.

 

[Asit]

That's good but what is supercool is I have calculated it to be 6 hz (5.8 hz to be precise) which is amazing.
Calculator - Resonance Frequency

I guess with two tonearms one can be used with elliptical shape stylus for innergroove songs, right ?

Your post has gone completely over my head. I am not sure what you actually mean in your post. Please look at my post http://www.hifivision.com/phono-turntables/18378-cartridge-compliance.html#post252002 . There I have given the formula, and also mentioned the values I assumed for the effective mass of the arm+cart+screws and the compliance value of the cartridges. There, for the RB251 arm and the Super OM 10/20/30 carts, I got values of around 8 Hz and 8.5 Hz (with the brass plate removed from the cart). According to Jochen, actual measurement with the test record (Jochen perhaps has something like this http://homepages.tcp.co.uk/~nroberts/article71.pdf) yields 10 Hz. The calculation with the formula depends on the accuracy of the estimate of the effective mass of the arm, and hence can produce results which are slightly off. But your 5.8 Hz is actually not a good value, it's too low. I have no idea how the site you have used is actually doing the calculation. Jochen's measurement can also be slightly off, because all physical measurements have some error. Within their errors, I would think my calculation and Jochen's measurement agrees within error bars, your number is completely off.

An elliptical needle is generally bettered by a fine line needle. Hence it is unlikely that an elliptical needle will track better. Having two arms on two separate armboards on the plinth is not very uncommon. My understanding is that people have this to enjoy two different arm-cart combo on the same TT.

Regards.

 

[Hiten]

Asitda,
there is a possibility of error in the link I have provided, as we dont know what formula they have used. So I double checked with the 4th link you provided in your compliance thread. It came with same results. Cartridge and arm matching link has following formula
rf = 159 / sqrt ((eff. mass + cart weight + fastener weight) * (compliance))

Googling I got following data on measurements
Regar RB tonearm weight 11.5 to 12 gms
Cartridge Weight 5 gms.
Cartridge fastening weight approx 5 gms.
Total comes to 21.5 gms.
Ortofon cartridge complianc is 35 if we put this figures in above formula
rf = 159/sqrt of (21.5 x 35)
rf=159/27.4
rf=5.80

Am I missing something
Not nitpicking just having some interesting fun
Regards

 

[myriad]

Asitda,
there is a possibility of error in the link I have provided, as we dont know what formula they have used. So I double checked with the 4th link you provided in your compliance thread. It came with same results. Cartridge and arm matching link has following formula
rf = 159 / sqrt ((eff. mass + cart weight + fastener weight) * (compliance))

Googling I got following data on measurements
Regar RB tonearm weight 11.5 to 12 gms
Cartridge Weight 5 gms.
Cartridge fastening weight approx 5 gms.
Total comes to 21.5 gms.
Ortofon cartridge complianc is 35 if we put this figures in above formula
rf = 159/sqrt of (21.5 x 35)
rf=159/27.4
rf=5.80

Am I missing something
Not nitpicking just having some interesting fun
Regards

Hiten,
The compliance of Super OM30 as per Ortofon website is 25 not 35 and the fasteners are usually 0.5 gms not 5 gms. Hope this helps
Regards
Vasu

 

[Asit]

Hiten,

Your formula is correct and agrees with mine. However, you and I are different values. People generally take 0.5 gm for the cart fastening screws, you have taken this value to be 5 gms. The other difference is that the effective mass of the RB251 I have taken is 11gms, where you have taken is 11.5 or 12 gms. Finally, I have taken the cart mass to be 2.5 gms without the brass plate. Now the total effective mass comes out to be only 14 gms instead of 21.5 gms. Now, with your value of the cart compliance (35 in the appro units) and using the formula yields 7.2 Hz (not 5.8 Hz as you got). This number is better but perhaps not the best.

There is one more difference. I have used the cart compliance to be 25, with that I get close to 8.5 Hz. I cannot remember where I got this value from or which one is the correct value for the compliance. I'll search the net if possible to get the more representative number. The inverse of this number has to act as the spring constant in the equation of motion.

However, the number I will trust the most is the measured number, because other than measurement uncertainties and some systematic errors involved in all measurements, this is the physical result.

Regards.

 

[myriad]

One can check resonance here:
Cartridge Database Tools

 

[AMITNOIDA]

Asit,

We have not talked since long on Audio. Congrats for your new TT, it should be a VFM product, because I know you always keep this in mind. Earlier, I was beneficiary of your 'Amp selection' thread and purchased Leben, which I also believe a VFM product. And I am really happy.

From the technical details provided by the TT owners in your thread, it is pretty sure that TT is a different ball game. It has lot of physics involved in it. I am sure you are enjoying.

Regards

Amit

 

[Asit]

Here are a few pictures.

 

[Asit]

Hiten,
I have taken the value of the compliance of the cart (super OM 30) from this Ortofon brochure http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/cartridges/om_omp/OM and 500 series.pdf .

Amit,
Thanks a lot. Hope everything's alright with your audio-video set-up. Yes, I am enjoying my TT. Today I have listened to it for 2 hours and a half, and today I adjusted the speed a little. It is opening up with every passing hour. Still some time to go before the cart is broken in.

Regards.

 

[Bluu]

Excellent photos!

Gosh I'm jealous.

 

[ssf]

Congrats, Asit. The beauty of the TT is nicely captured in the photographs.

Play on.

 

[AMITNOIDA]

The pictures are really eye candy. The transparent base and frosted white table gives real good black & white look. Feeling tempted to jump in and follow you.
In my next visit to Kolkata, will definitely try to drop in at your place.
Enjoy

 

[grubyhalo]

That's one fine looking instrument. I love the way how they've made the motor-pod a footer, or is it vice-versa?!

 

[Bluu]

Yup! The motor lives in the front left foot.

 

[himadri]

Congrats Asit on your new purchase. Just like your Amp thread , the Cello thread will inspire many of us to look seriously at TTs beyond entry level and what better time that this when vinyl is on a revival mode.
Cheers
Himadri

 

[jls001]

Hiten,
I have taken the value of the compliance of the cart (super OM 30) from this Ortofon brochure http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/cartridges/om_omp/OM and 500 series.pdf .

@Asit: surprisingly, there is another Ortofon document here : http://www.ortofon.com/images/stories/stylus/Ortofon Super OM 30_20_10.pdf which says the compliance of Super OM30 is 35.

Anyway, all this information is good to arrive at a ballpark figure of good arm-cart match. Once mounted, what matters is the proper setup. Enjoy!!
Joshua

 

[mksharan]

Congratulations Asit da. I am back this Saturday. Stumbled on some Western Classical LP's in mint condition at the Geneva flea market. Would love to play them on your system.
Manoj

 

[Asit]

Thanks everybody for the encouragement and liking the pictures. Actually the original pictures are much much better. For the purpose of uploading them here, I had to seriously compromise with the quality (to a less extent only for one which shows the very thin thread acting as the belt).

Amit, you are very welcome to visit my place whenever you come next to Kolkata.

Grubyhalo, as already explained by Bluu, the motor resides in the front left foot. From the next higher model (premier) Scheu has deployed the motor outside and hence completely decoupled from the plinth. For the Cello, their lowest priced TT, their finding is that putting the motor in one of the feet results in the least interference of the motor noise in the actual functioning of the TT. Novel idea indeed! I hope it works the way they expect it to. The other novelty is the thin nylon thread instead of the rubber belt, a thing already described by me above. Even their more expensive models have these threads acting as belts. They say that this is sonically better. Then there is the inverted bearing with a ceramic ball on top and sleeve around all that. One has to take the sleeve out and put in a bit of oil, and due to capillary effect, the oil spreads all around including the ceramic ball. Then one has to put the sleeve back and then put the acrylic platter in place. I should have taken a picture or two of this operation. Unfortunately it did not occur to me at that time, but the 6moon review has pictures of this.

Some do not like acrylic as a material for platter or plinth. Clearaudio and some others have used acrylic too. Acrylic is sonically very neutral. Already I see an incredible amount of details in the Cello's performance and generally a good frequency response across the board. Scheu now supplies these acrylic platters to reputed brands in Germany and outside Germany. BTW, all these (motor, bearing and the platter) are made to the same specification as their more expensive model except that the platter is thinner for Cello and hence lighter (2.5 kg).

Rega RB251 arm has average cabling, otherwise the arm is quite good (according to all reports). However, there is one good side - the tone arm cables and the interconnect that goes into the phono pre are one and the same. At every connection, for these very weak signals coming out from the cartridge, there is some loss and distortion because of a junction impedance, and here the Rega arm without any separate connection for external interconnect actually has an advantage, even though the actual cable quality is ordinary.

Joshua, there was some confusion in my mind also when I first did that calculation for the resonant frequency. I actually looked at many many documents regarding the compliance value. Something convinced me that 25 was the correct value to use, but I cannot remember exactly the chain of arguments or documentation I found convincing. It also could be that one of the documents has a typo error. Any way, as I said earlier, even with the compliance value of 35, the resonance frequency comes to above 7 Hz, much better than the value Hiten got. The range of 8-12 Hz is considered ideal. Experimental determination should have less uncertainties, and I'd tend to believe Jochen's number more. So far I do not see any bad things like resonance happening.

Manoj, it is high time, we make the solution with the Lat du Son cleaning agent. All arrangements are ready for so many months now including distilled water and clean, dark and large bottles to store the cleaning solution. I need to clean up all my old records.

As a general update, last night I increased the speed just a bit. Actually the correct speed is supposed to be achieved using the stroboscopic disc (supplied) and a mains-powered lamp. There are two small screws on the front left foot (one each for 33 1/3 and 45) which need to be turned to make the adjustment. Jochen suggested I can do it also by listening to some music I know quite well. I tried this yesterday, basically increasing the speed by a tiny bit, and the results were spectacular. Everything improved -clarity, tonality, dynamics, frequency bandwidth and soundstage.

Regards.

 

[G401fan]

As a general update, last night I increased the speed just a bit. Actually the correct speed is supposed to be achieved using the stroboscopic disc (supplied) and a mains-powered lamp. There are two small screws on the front left foot (one each for 33 1/3 and 45) which need to be turned to make the adjustment. Jochen suggested I can do it also by listening to some music I know quite well. I tried this yesterday, basically increasing the speed by a tiny bit, and the results were spectacular. Everything improved -clarity, tonality, dynamics, frequency bandwidth and soundstage.

Regards.

Did you check the speed (and recalibrate it) with the stylus in the groove, or before playing an LP?

With most belt drive systems, or those TTs that have motors with low torque, there is a marginal slowing down caused by stylus friction that can cause (in worst case situations) belt slippage, and/or LP movement vis-a-vis the platter/mat interface. This is microscopic, but so is the modulation of the stylus, and it can colour the sound. Some TT vendors (most notably in the case of the Rega P-3) deliberately set the fixed speed slightly faster than 33.33 rpm, to counteract this friction. Reviews of the P-3 have found the measured speed to be such, and that probably accounts for its own startlingly dynamic sound.

 

[Asit]

Did you check the speed (and recalibrate it) with the stylus in the groove, or before playing an LP?

With most belt drive systems, or those TTs that have motors with low torque, there is a marginal slowing down caused by stylus friction that can cause (in worst case situations) belt slippage, and/or LP movement vis-a-vis the platter/mat interface. This is microscopic, but so is the modulation of the stylus, and it can colour the sound. Some TT vendors (most notably in the case of the Rega P-3) deliberately set the fixed speed slightly faster than 33.33 rpm, to counteract this friction. Reviews of the P-3 have found the measured speed to be such, and that probably accounts for its own startlingly dynamic sound.

Very interesting post, G401fan. Thanks. I did not know all this about the Rega P-3.

Any way, in answer to your question, I felt that with some male and female voices that I know very well, on my Cello they were sounding a bit too lowish and as a result loosing a bit on everything, especially in articulation. I did not do any objective calibration of any sort with or without the needle in the groove. All I did was to turn the screw clock-wise just a tiny winy bit while music was being played from the player, and that means the stylus needle was on the groove. As I said above, this little tweak improved everything. I am not very comfortable with the strobo, because I am not sure which lamp to use. I do not have a strobo lamp.

Regards.