Need help with RT60

Analogous

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 17, 2017
Messages
3,072
Points
113
Location
Bangalore
Looking for some help from any Bangalore based FM to assist me with measuring my room (using REW and a UMIK Mike) and advise using the measurements.
The goal is to get the room RT 60 below 1 second. Any one with experience in doing this and who is interested please DM.
Gratitude, friendship, lunch/ dinner, and/or a consultation fee if expected are all possible.🙂
 
Looking for some help from any Bangalore based FM to assist me with measuring my room (using REW and a UMIK Mike) and advise using the measurements.
The goal is to get the room RT 60 below 1 second. Any one with experience in doing this and who is interested please DM.
Gratitude, friendship, lunch/ dinner, and/or a consultation fee if expected are all possible.🙂
(Mic)

Recording studios target 200ms (dry). For home audio 400ms to 600ms (lively) is ideal. A little reverberance creates a spatial effect. Aim to bring it down to no more than 600ms. In any case, all of this will depend on your taste and what you're used to.

Having listened in your room, you do not have long resonances in the higher frequencies. I would be keen to see where the nulls are for the lower frequencies and treat them accordingly.

Nonetheless, a lovely first step to recognising what your room is doing and how best to treat it! Cheers
 
Looking for some help from any Bangalore based FM to assist me with measuring my room (using REW and a UMIK Mike) and advise using the measurements.
The goal is to get the room RT 60 below 1 second. Any one with experience in doing this and who is interested please DM.
Gratitude, friendship, lunch/ dinner, and/or a consultation fee if expected are all possible.🙂
Hi @Analogous. Its actually very easy to measure RT60 if you buy a umik 1 or 2 microphone. For the cost of less than a cable, you will have an invaluable tweaking tool to last a life time. Ive had mine for close to 6 years. And all the required tutorials are on youtube too. So go for it :D

And as regards, treating the room, you can send your RT60 graph, room dimensions, speakers in use and distances to GIK or Vicoustic. They will tell you which among their products to place and where. You can buy GIK from Audionote Mumbai or Vicoustic from Auralex in delhi and complete the job. All the best :)
 
Hi @Analogous. Its actually very easy to measure RT60 if you buy a umik 1 or 2 microphone. For the cost of less than a cable, you will have an invaluable tweaking tool to last a life time. Ive had mine for close to 6 years. And all the required tutorials are on youtube too. So go for it :D

And as regards, treating the room, you can send your RT60 graph, room dimensions, speakers in use and distances to GIK or Vicoustic. They will tell you which among their products to place and where. You can buy GIK from Audionote Mumbai or Vicoustic from Auralex in delhi and complete the job. All the best :)
Thanks @Yelamanchili manohar . I may do that if I don’t get someone to help me with…I thought it would be a good learning opportunity to see someone experienced doing it
 
Hi @Analogous. Its actually very easy to measure RT60 if you buy a umik 1 or 2 microphone. For the cost of less than a cable, you will have an invaluable tweaking tool to last a life time. Ive had mine for close to 6 years. And all the required tutorials are on youtube too. So go for it :D

And as regards, treating the room, you can send your RT60 graph, room dimensions, speakers in use and distances to GIK or Vicoustic. They will tell you which among their products to place and where. You can buy GIK from Audionote Mumbai or Vicoustic from Auralex in delhi and complete the job. All the best :)
Its quite easy to measure but making sense out of it can be a bit challenging. For example, here are my RT60 times - can somebody explain which amongst Topt, EDT, T20, T30, TS is the one that i should be concerned about and why?
 

Attachments

  • Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 2.jpg
    Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 2.jpg
    154 KB · Views: 36
Its quite easy to measure but making sense out of it can be a bit challenging. For example, here are my RT60 times - can somebody explain which amongst Topt, EDT, T20, T30, TS is the one that i should be concerned about and why?
I like your innovative way of asking for help analyzing your graphs 🤣

Depending on your room size you should either be looking at T30 or T60 ( you havent selected T60 in the graphs by the way ). But i prefer looking at T60. So maybe you can post your T60 graph when free :)

Edit : For small rooms plotting RT60 decay or waterfall graphs is recommended.
 
Last edited:
Depending on your room size you should either be looking at T30 or T60 ( you havent selected T60 in the graphs by the way ). But i prefer looking at T60. So maybe you can post your T60 graph when free :)
Now how do i enable the T60 graph? 🤔

If you view the pic on my previous post, the T60 option/checkbox is greyed out and cannot be selected! Am i doing something wrong?

Edit : For small rooms plotting RT60 decay or waterfall graphs is recommended.
Will do! 👍
 
Now how do i enable the T60 graph? 🤔

If you view the pic on my previous post, the T60 option/checkbox is greyed out and cannot be selected! Am i doing something wrong?


Will do! 👍
I last did REW 3 years ago, so completely lost touch. I could post my half baked knowledge from a fading memory. But that will digress from the point of helping your goodselves. So I will have to go back to read and familiarize again. In the meanwhile I will post a link to what all those curves mean for your own under standing. So happy reading :)


Edit : And as i mentioned RT60 is mainly for big rooms where there is sound decay. Our small rooms are subject to modes, but dont have enough space for decay. Maybe thats why REW is showing RT60 as greyed out, as the room is too small to measure it. And again as posted above, for small rooms RT60 Decay and waterfall are the only graphs that are usefull. You can select any of your old measurements and then select RT60 decay tab, and you will get the decay's without measuring again.
 
I last did REW 3 years ago, so completely lost touch. I could post my half baked knowledge from a fading memory. But that will digress from the point of helping your goodselves. So I will have to go back to read and familiarize again. In the meanwhile I will post a link to what all those curves mean for your own under standing. So happy reading :)

Ha Ha, I did read this very page before i posed the question in my first post and in fact, was the root cause which led to it - i couldn't make sense of what the T20 and T30 and EDT explanations were about - except that the RT60 times are ideal when between 0.4 and 0.6ms in a large room and around 0.3ms in a small room. The explanation assumes that there is an RT60 time capable of being measured/calculated in both small and large rooms, except mine is greyed out as you pointed out.

My room straddles the difference between a large and small one - its 1867 cubic feet 😋
Edit : And as i mentioned RT60 is mainly for big rooms where there is sound decay. Our small rooms are subject to modes, but dont have enough space for decay. Maybe thats why REW is showing RT60 as greyed out, as the room is too small to measure it. And again as posted above, for small rooms RT60 Decay and waterfall are the only graphs that are usefull. You can select any of your old measurements and then select RT60 decay tab, and you will get the decay's without measuring again.
Posting RT decay and waterfall but again, what should i make of these graphs?
 

Attachments

  • Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 3.jpg
    Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 3.jpg
    120.6 KB · Views: 27
  • Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 4.jpg
    Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 4.jpg
    137.5 KB · Views: 29
Ha Ha, I did read this very page before i posed the question in my first post and in fact, was the root cause which led to it - i couldn't make sense of what the T20 and T30 and EDT explanations were about - except that the RT60 times are ideal when between 0.4 and 0.6ms in a large room and around 0.3ms in a small room. The explanation assumes that there is an RT60 time capable of being measured/calculated in both small and large rooms, except mine is greyed out as you pointed out.

My room straddles the difference between a large and small one - its 1867 cubic feet 😋

Posting RT decay and waterfall but again, what should i make of these graphs?
Haha...your room is very well behaved.

In both the graphs, check out the 0, 100, 200, 300 & 400 readings on the right side inside these boxes. Now you will see that these are like a rectangle inside a rectangle. These are time domain readings. 100 marks 100 milliseconds after the original note. Similarly 400 marks 400 milli seconds after the original notes. These are basically decay times in hundreds of milli seconds. As you can see, your room has a decay time of below 300 milliseconds from 80hz upwards. Which is just perfect.

Only bass below 80hz has a longer reverberation time of above 500 milliseconds. There is no way to make out how long it persists in this graph. I dont remember how i used to get it, but i remember getting a bar garph with the vertical axis being time in milli seconds and horizontal axis being frequency. @muralimmreddy had also asked me about it before, but i cant seem to remember how i used to get that screen. Maybe you can tinker a bit and try to find it. There the time domain used to go till 1 second.

Anyways without knowing how long your bass decay is, it is still safe to presume that you can add bass traps in the corners with baffle plates on top. Apart from bass you dont have any severe problems. There is a dip at 80hz ( actually dropping off between 50 to 100 hz ) which might be room induced. And might be difficult to remove with a single sub if you are high passing your speakers. However, if you run your speakers full range and then move the sub around maybe its possible to even out the bass, but I wouldnt bet on it. Usually 2 subs work better at this.

Apart from that without knowing the exact size of the room, and the exact distances speakers to walls, and listener to walls, it is difficult to suggest further without over damping the room.

I had posted this a year back about choosing between diffusion and absorption at first reflection points. Just to end the post with something to mull over for you :) when treating first reflection points if you choose to :p

The purpose of treating our room :

1. To arrange the placement of our speakers and listening position in such a way, that the primary reflections ( first reflections) reach our ears 15 milliseconds after the direct sound from the speakers. Converting 15 milli seconds into distance, give us 5.1 mtrs or 17 ft.
So if "distance from speaker baffle to first reflection point" + "distance from first reflection point to ear" - distance from speaker baffle to listeners ear >17 ft. Then no treatment is required at this first reflection point.

2. However in small rooms, the above required 17 ft will not be possible. So the solution then is to treat the first reflection point, with either absorption or diffusion such that the amplitude of the reflected sound is 10 dB less than the amplitude of the direct sound from the speaker.

3. So absorbtion or diffusion at first reflection point - The recommended ratio between absorption vs diffusion vs reflection ( bare walls or ceiling) is 33%:33%:33%. And that's simply not possible in a domestic environment.

So, the idea is to use equal amounts of both. However, by equal amounts, we mean equal effective area and not equal surface area. The max effeciency of a diffuser is taken as 0. 6 NRC, where as a proper absorber designed for that same frequency can have a NRC of 1.0. Which means, for every 1 SQ.ft of absorption used, we will need 1.66 SQ. Ft of diffusion to have the same effect. Thus, diffusion will take up more surface area than absorption. Thus, absorption is recommended for smaller rooms.

4. 1D or quadratic diffusers - These are the easiest DIY diffusers with plans readily available online. Every quadratic diffuser is designed with a target frequency range in mind. The lower frequency where the diffusion starts is called as its design frequency. Let us take an example of a 5 inch deep quadratic diffuser, whose effective frequency usually starts at 900 hz. The wave length of a 900 hz sound wave is 37 cms. We multiply this by 3, to get 1.11 mtrs.

So we should not have any sound source or listener within a distance of 1.11 mtr from the boundaries of a, quadratic diffuser. A quadratic diffuser is called as a RPG - reflection phase grating. The phase of the diffused wave is offset from the direct sound. And when source or listener are within 3 wave lengths of the diffuser, then the interaction between the direct and reflected sound will cause a tingy note to the treble and will damage imaging of the system.

I have previously read that diffusers have to be placed at a minimum of 8 ft from the listener. Then recently on a different forum, a designer of studio's mentioned that he would never use a quadratic diffuser, unless the listener was at least 10 millisecs from the quadratic diffuser. That translates to 3.4 mtrs or 11.3 ft. But since he was referring to a studio where 100% acoustics are required, I would like to think that for a domestic small room 8 ft might be doable

5. 2D or skyline diffusers - Where room size doesn't permit quadratic diffusers, due to close proximity of speakers or the listener, the skyline diffusers come to the rescue. The skyline diffusers are less effective than quadratic diffusers, but don't come with a minimum distance requirement that I've seen so far. Actually skylines don't diffuse, they apparently only work via staggered reflection. So these can be used without a minimum distance requirement probably. But I would still stick with a minimum of 8 feet distance to the ear in my room, because it is possible at 2 points.

6. Another types of diffusers recommended for small rooms are poly diffusers. These look like a half cylindrical PVC pipe. And the inside can be stuffed with glass wool to absorb bass as well. These poly's don't alter the phase, and thus don't have a minimum recommended distance again.

7. I've saved the best for the last - RPG BAD - Binary amplitude diffusers - these are patented by RPG systems, and haven't seen same being offered by anyone else. These are thin, almost 1 inch thick panels, with a, mathematically calculated cuts in the baffle plate They diffuse from mid frequencies upwards and absorb bass at the same time. So these would be most ideal.

8. The first reflective point treatments, only come after bass treatment. Unless RT60 times below 400 hz are brought down below 0.5 secs. We won't be able to hear the full benefits of the panels at first reflection points.
 
Haha...your room is very well behaved.

In both the graphs, check out the 0, 100, 200, 300 & 400 readings on the right side inside these boxes. Now you will see that these are like a rectangle inside a rectangle. These are time domain readings. 100 marks 100 milliseconds after the original note. Similarly 400 marks 400 milli seconds after the original notes. These are basically decay times in hundreds of milli seconds. As you can see, your room has a decay time of below 300 milliseconds from 80hz upwards. Which is just perfect.

Only bass below 80hz has a longer reverberation time of above 500 milliseconds. There is no way to make out how long it persists in this graph. I dont remember how i used to get it, but i remember getting a bar garph with the vertical axis being time in milli seconds and horizontal axis being frequency. @muralimmreddy had also asked me about it before, but i cant seem to remember how i used to get that screen. Maybe you can tinker a bit and try to find it. There the time domain used to go till 1 second.

Anyways without knowing how long your bass decay is, it is still safe to presume that you can add bass traps in the corners with baffle plates on top. Apart from bass you dont have any severe problems. There is a dip at 80hz ( actually dropping off between 50 to 100 hz ) which might be room induced. And might be difficult to remove with a single sub if you are high passing your speakers. However, if you run your speakers full range and then move the sub around maybe its possible to even out the bass, but I wouldnt bet on it. Usually 2 subs work better at this.

Apart from that without knowing the exact size of the room, and the exact distances speakers to walls, and listener to walls, it is difficult to suggest further without over damping the room.

I had posted this a year back about choosing between diffusion and absorption at first reflection points. Just to end the post with something to mull over for you :) when treating first reflection points if you choose to :p

The purpose of treating our room :

1. To arrange the placement of our speakers and listening position in such a way, that the primary reflections ( first reflections) reach our ears 15 milliseconds after the direct sound from the speakers. Converting 15 milli seconds into distance, give us 5.1 mtrs or 17 ft.
So if "distance from speaker baffle to first reflection point" + "distance from first reflection point to ear" - distance from speaker baffle to listeners ear >17 ft. Then no treatment is required at this first reflection point.

2. However in small rooms, the above required 17 ft will not be possible. So the solution then is to treat the first reflection point, with either absorption or diffusion such that the amplitude of the reflected sound is 10 dB less than the amplitude of the direct sound from the speaker.

3. So absorbtion or diffusion at first reflection point - The recommended ratio between absorption vs diffusion vs reflection ( bare walls or ceiling) is 33%:33%:33%. And that's simply not possible in a domestic environment.

So, the idea is to use equal amounts of both. However, by equal amounts, we mean equal effective area and not equal surface area. The max effeciency of a diffuser is taken as 0. 6 NRC, where as a proper absorber designed for that same frequency can have a NRC of 1.0. Which means, for every 1 SQ.ft of absorption used, we will need 1.66 SQ. Ft of diffusion to have the same effect. Thus, diffusion will take up more surface area than absorption. Thus, absorption is recommended for smaller rooms.

4. 1D or quadratic diffusers - These are the easiest DIY diffusers with plans readily available online. Every quadratic diffuser is designed with a target frequency range in mind. The lower frequency where the diffusion starts is called as its design frequency. Let us take an example of a 5 inch deep quadratic diffuser, whose effective frequency usually starts at 900 hz. The wave length of a 900 hz sound wave is 37 cms. We multiply this by 3, to get 1.11 mtrs.

So we should not have any sound source or listener within a distance of 1.11 mtr from the boundaries of a, quadratic diffuser. A quadratic diffuser is called as a RPG - reflection phase grating. The phase of the diffused wave is offset from the direct sound. And when source or listener are within 3 wave lengths of the diffuser, then the interaction between the direct and reflected sound will cause a tingy note to the treble and will damage imaging of the system.

I have previously read that diffusers have to be placed at a minimum of 8 ft from the listener. Then recently on a different forum, a designer of studio's mentioned that he would never use a quadratic diffuser, unless the listener was at least 10 millisecs from the quadratic diffuser. That translates to 3.4 mtrs or 11.3 ft. But since he was referring to a studio where 100% acoustics are required, I would like to think that for a domestic small room 8 ft might be doable

5. 2D or skyline diffusers - Where room size doesn't permit quadratic diffusers, due to close proximity of speakers or the listener, the skyline diffusers come to the rescue. The skyline diffusers are less effective than quadratic diffusers, but don't come with a minimum distance requirement that I've seen so far. Actually skylines don't diffuse, they apparently only work via staggered reflection. So these can be used without a minimum distance requirement probably. But I would still stick with a minimum of 8 feet distance to the ear in my room, because it is possible at 2 points.

6. Another types of diffusers recommended for small rooms are poly diffusers. These look like a half cylindrical PVC pipe. And the inside can be stuffed with glass wool to absorb bass as well. These poly's don't alter the phase, and thus don't have a minimum recommended distance again.

7. I've saved the best for the last - RPG BAD - Binary amplitude diffusers - these are patented by RPG systems, and haven't seen same being offered by anyone else. These are thin, almost 1 inch thick panels, with a, mathematically calculated cuts in the baffle plate They diffuse from mid frequencies upwards and absorb bass at the same time. So these would be most ideal.

8. The first reflective point treatments, only come after bass treatment. Unless RT60 times below 400 hz are brought down below 0.5 secs. We won't be able to hear the full benefits of the panels at first reflection points.
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Really appreciate it.

Currently, I have no treatment on my walls. Only my ceiling and floor are treated so the ratio is between 35-40% for absorption at the moment. Keeping away from further treating the walls to avoid making the sound too dry as the RT60 is already around 0.3 - 0.4ms.

I'm running dual subs indeed - two REL T9is - and the frequency response isnt too bad below 60hz - i don't have any nasty peaks or dips and the output is substantial till 8hz from these tiny 10inch subs (will post the graph below#NO-SMOOTHING!!! 🕶️ ) - its the dip at 80hz to 120hz that i need to figure out how to address and will definitely explore the options you've fielded 😊.

The speakers are 7 feet apart, 6 feet away from each sidewall and 4 feet away from the backwall. reducing the distance between the speakers addresses the 80hz dip to some extent but takes away from the soundstage. My previous room had the opposite problem - a dip between 40hz and 60hz but substantial and smooth between 60 to 120hz.

Rooms I tell you :rolleyes:
 

Attachments

  • Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 5.jpg
    Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 5.jpg
    94.7 KB · Views: 31
Last edited:
Thanks for the comprehensive reply. Really appreciate it.

Currently, I have no treatment on my walls. Only my ceiling and floor are treated so the ratio is between 35-40% for absorption at the moment. Keeping away from further treating the walls to avoid making the sound too dry as the RT60 is already around 0.3 - 0.4ms.

I'm running dual subs indeed - two REL T9is - and the frequency response isnt too bad below 60hz - i don't have any nasty peaks or dips and the output is substantial till 8hz from these tiny 10inch subs #NO-SMOOTHING!!! 🕶️(will post the graph below) - its the dip at 80hz to 120hz that i need to figure out how to address and will definitely explore the options you've fielded 😊.

The speakers are 7 feet apart, 6 feet away from each sidewall and 4 feet away from the backwall. reducing the distance between the speakers addresses the 80hz dip to some extent but takes away from the soundstage. My previous room had the opposite problem - a dip between 40hz and 60hz but substantial and smooth between 60 to 120hz.

Rooms I tell you :rolleyes:
Your room is excellent as it is. Id be wary about adding anything, unless it was reversable. This is one of the golden rules of room treatment seldom mentioned :D. And it also looks like yours is bordering on a near field setup, so you could in all probability get away without first reflection points treatment. However, Id still recommend getting 2nos of 4x2 feet full range absorption panels with a baffle plate on top, and trying them on your first reflection points on side walls, closest to your speakers. You will be impressed with the immediate improvement it brings in instrument focus and micro details. Then you can take a call on adding further at the second set of first reflection points on side walls, closer to the listening position.

Coming back to the bass, it is easy to calculate which dimension of your room is causing that 80hz null by trying room simulator in REW. Since you already have REW you can give it a try. I sadly dont have REW on my system currently, so sorry can't help there :(

But even if you know what is causing the cancellation, we need to find our room modes to fix it.

Please try the free Amroc room mode calculator below :


1. First feed in your room dimensions in the calculator.
2. There is a piano panel in top center that shows your room modes.
3. When you place your cursor on any room mode, in the bottom center "Room 3D" box you will find the location of the mode at this particular frequency.
4. Now we have to bear in mind that modes are areas of high pressure at that particular frequency. If your current seating position as visualized in the 3D box falls outside a mode. Then moving it into the nearest mode will remove the 80hz cancellation. You could also move your speakers into a 80hz mode or move one of your subs into the 80hz mode. This will boost the 80hz frequency.

Important : Please bear in mind that the present null we have will shift, if either speakers or subwoofers are moved. So it will become an endless exercise and we will end up chasing our tails. So best to move listening position into a mode if feasible. If not, next best is to remove one sub. Then measure. Then if you still have a 80hz cancellation or whatever cancellation you next have. Place the second sub in that frequencies mode and measure again.

That is atleast the theory behind using room mode calculations to remove room induced cancellations. I havent tried it yet, as Iam too lazy and still building my subs for the last two years, one side panel a month 🤣 .

If you do give it a try, can you please post your feedback please. If your bass improves, that will atleast be a kick up my backside to get off my lazy a@# and build my subs finally 🤣
 
Last edited:
Your room is excellent as it is. Id be wary about adding anything, unless it was reversable. This is one of the golden rules of room treatment seldom mentioned :D. And it also looks like yours is bordering on a near field setup, so you could in all probability get away without first reflection points treatment. However, Id still recommend getting 2nos of 4x2 feet full range absorption panels with a baffle plate on top, and trying them on your first reflection points on side walls, closest to your speakers. You will be impressed with the immediate improvement it brings in instrument focus and micro details. Then you can take a call on adding further at the second set of first reflection points on side walls, closer to the listening position.

Coming back to the bass, it is easy to calculate which dimension of your room is causing that 80hz null by trying room simulator in REW. Since you already have REW you can give it a try. I sadly dont have REW on my system currently, so sorry can't help there :(

But even if you know what is causing the cancellation, we need to find our room modes to fix it.

Please try the free Amroc room mode calculator below :


1. First feed in your room dimensions in the calculator.
2. There is a piano panel in top center that shows your room modes.
3. When you place your cursor on any room mode, in the bottom center "Room 3D" box you will find the location of the mode at this particular frequency.
4. Now we have to bear in mind that modes are areas of high pressure at that particular frequency. If your current seating position as visualized in the 3D box falls outside a mode. Then moving it into the nearest mode will remove the 80hz cancellation. You could also move your speakers into a 80hz mode or move one of your subs into the 80hz mode. This will boost the 80hz frequency.

Important : Please bear in mind that the present null we have will shift, if either speakers or subwoofers are moved. So it will become an endless exercise and we will end up chasing our tails. So best to move listening position into a mode if feasible. If not, next best is to remove one sub. Then measure. Then if you still have a 80hz cancellation or whatever cancellation you next have. Place the second sub in that frequencies mode and measure again.

That is atleast the theory behind using room mode calculations to remove room induced cancellations. I havent tried it yet, as Iam too lazy and still building my subs for the last two years, one side panel a month 🤣 .

If you do give it a try, can you please post your feedback please. If your bass improves, that will atleast be a kick up my backside to get off my lazy a@# and build my subs finally 🤣
Project for the weekend then which is imminent. Will report back in a couple. Thanks for the fantastic tips - I have a plan of action now as opposed to randomly moving speakers around and hoping for the best 😄
 
Project for the weekend then which is imminent. Will report back in a couple. Thanks for the fantastic tips - I have a plan of action now as opposed to randomly moving speakers around and hoping for the best 😄
You are most welcome :)

Will fondly look forward to the outcome of your experiments :)

Edit : If you can share your room's exact dimensions, then I can do some home work in the mean while :p
 
Haha...your room is very well behaved.

In both the graphs, check out the 0, 100, 200, 300 & 400 readings on the right side inside these boxes. Now you will see that these are like a rectangle inside a rectangle. These are time domain readings. 100 marks 100 milliseconds after the original note. Similarly 400 marks 400 milli seconds after the original notes. These are basically decay times in hundreds of milli seconds. As you can see, your room has a decay time of below 300 milliseconds from 80hz upwards. Which is just perfect.

Only bass below 80hz has a longer reverberation time of above 500 milliseconds. There is no way to make out how long it persists in this graph. I dont remember how i used to get it, but i remember getting a bar garph with the vertical axis being time in milli seconds and horizontal axis being frequency. @muralimmreddy had also asked me about it before, but i cant seem to remember how i used to get that screen. Maybe you can tinker a bit and try to find it. There the time domain used to go till 1 second.

Anyways without knowing how long your bass decay is, it is still safe to presume that you can add bass traps in the corners with baffle plates on top. Apart from bass you dont have any severe problems. There is a dip at 80hz ( actually dropping off between 50 to 100 hz ) which might be room induced. And might be difficult to remove with a single sub if you are high passing your speakers. However, if you run your speakers full range and then move the sub around maybe its possible to even out the bass, but I wouldnt bet on it. Usually 2 subs work better at this.

Apart from that without knowing the exact size of the room, and the exact distances speakers to walls, and listener to walls, it is difficult to suggest further without over damping the room.

I had posted this a year back about choosing between diffusion and absorption at first reflection points. Just to end the post with something to mull over for you :) when treating first reflection points if you choose to :p

The purpose of treating our room :

1. To arrange the placement of our speakers and listening position in such a way, that the primary reflections ( first reflections) reach our ears 15 milliseconds after the direct sound from the speakers. Converting 15 milli seconds into distance, give us 5.1 mtrs or 17 ft.
So if "distance from speaker baffle to first reflection point" + "distance from first reflection point to ear" - distance from speaker baffle to listeners ear >17 ft. Then no treatment is required at this first reflection point.

2. However in small rooms, the above required 17 ft will not be possible. So the solution then is to treat the first reflection point, with either absorption or diffusion such that the amplitude of the reflected sound is 10 dB less than the amplitude of the direct sound from the speaker.

3. So absorbtion or diffusion at first reflection point - The recommended ratio between absorption vs diffusion vs reflection ( bare walls or ceiling) is 33%:33%:33%. And that's simply not possible in a domestic environment.

So, the idea is to use equal amounts of both. However, by equal amounts, we mean equal effective area and not equal surface area. The max effeciency of a diffuser is taken as 0. 6 NRC, where as a proper absorber designed for that same frequency can have a NRC of 1.0. Which means, for every 1 SQ.ft of absorption used, we will need 1.66 SQ. Ft of diffusion to have the same effect. Thus, diffusion will take up more surface area than absorption. Thus, absorption is recommended for smaller rooms.

4. 1D or quadratic diffusers - These are the easiest DIY diffusers with plans readily available online. Every quadratic diffuser is designed with a target frequency range in mind. The lower frequency where the diffusion starts is called as its design frequency. Let us take an example of a 5 inch deep quadratic diffuser, whose effective frequency usually starts at 900 hz. The wave length of a 900 hz sound wave is 37 cms. We multiply this by 3, to get 1.11 mtrs.

So we should not have any sound source or listener within a distance of 1.11 mtr from the boundaries of a, quadratic diffuser. A quadratic diffuser is called as a RPG - reflection phase grating. The phase of the diffused wave is offset from the direct sound. And when source or listener are within 3 wave lengths of the diffuser, then the interaction between the direct and reflected sound will cause a tingy note to the treble and will damage imaging of the system.

I have previously read that diffusers have to be placed at a minimum of 8 ft from the listener. Then recently on a different forum, a designer of studio's mentioned that he would never use a quadratic diffuser, unless the listener was at least 10 millisecs from the quadratic diffuser. That translates to 3.4 mtrs or 11.3 ft. But since he was referring to a studio where 100% acoustics are required, I would like to think that for a domestic small room 8 ft might be doable

5. 2D or skyline diffusers - Where room size doesn't permit quadratic diffusers, due to close proximity of speakers or the listener, the skyline diffusers come to the rescue. The skyline diffusers are less effective than quadratic diffusers, but don't come with a minimum distance requirement that I've seen so far. Actually skylines don't diffuse, they apparently only work via staggered reflection. So these can be used without a minimum distance requirement probably. But I would still stick with a minimum of 8 feet distance to the ear in my room, because it is possible at 2 points.

6. Another types of diffusers recommended for small rooms are poly diffusers. These look like a half cylindrical PVC pipe. And the inside can be stuffed with glass wool to absorb bass as well. These poly's don't alter the phase, and thus don't have a minimum recommended distance again.

7. I've saved the best for the last - RPG BAD - Binary amplitude diffusers - these are patented by RPG systems, and haven't seen same being offered by anyone else. These are thin, almost 1 inch thick panels, with a, mathematically calculated cuts in the baffle plate They diffuse from mid frequencies upwards and absorb bass at the same time. So these would be most ideal.

8. The first reflective point treatments, only come after bass treatment. Unless RT60 times below 400 hz are brought down below 0.5 secs. We won't be able to hear the full benefits of the panels at first reflection points.
This is a great explanation! Thank you.
 
You are most welcome :)

Will fondly look forward to the outcome of your experiments :)

Edit : If you can share your room's exact dimensions, then I can do some home work in the mean while :p
You've made me an offer I cannot refuse :D

My room is 19' in length, 10' 8" in breadth and 9' 6" in height.

My speakers are placed along the length of the room - this was a conscious decision in order to permit enough space between the speaker to the side wall (now at approx 6 feet from each sidewall).

The trade off is that since my room is only 10' 8" in breadth, i can't position the speakers or my listening position too far away from our respective backwalls. As such, the speaker front baffle is exactly 100cm from its backwall whereas my MLP is 1' 6" from mine. The listening position can indeed be considered nearfield as i'm only a little more than 6 feet away from each speaker.

Posting the frequency response graph from 3hz - 20Khz and 3hz - 200hz smoothened to 1/6th
 

Attachments

  • Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 6.jpg
    Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 6.jpg
    95.4 KB · Views: 25
  • Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 7.jpg
    Mission SX2 w REL (new room) 7.jpg
    87.5 KB · Views: 24
You've made me an offer I cannot refuse :D

My room is 19' in length, 10' 8" in breadth and 9' 6" in height.

My speakers are placed along the length of the room - this was a conscious decision in order to permit enough space between the speaker to the side wall (now at approx 6 feet from each sidewall).

The trade off is that since my room is only 10' 8" in breadth, i can't position the speakers or my listening position too far away from our respective backwalls. As such, the speaker front baffle is exactly 100cm from its backwall whereas my MLP is 1' 6" from mine. The listening position can indeed be considered nearfield as i'm only a little more than 6 feet away from each speaker.

Posting the frequency response graph from 3hz - 20Khz and 3hz - 200hz smoothened to 1/6th
Haha...Thanks got it. No wonder your room looks so sorted. I have a similar arrangement with my speakers firing down the width of the room. Even before we get into the calculations :

1) Your 80hz cancellation is definitely because of your speaker front baffle being 1 m off the front wall. This is typical front wall cancellation that you are having. And if the bass driver is off the floor by 1 M too, it will only compound the cancellation.
2) Adding absorption on the wall behind your MLP will be a really big improvement. Try placing a few thick blankets to make a six feet wide square behind your ears. The improvement will be very noticable. ( Improvement will be better clarity and reduced back wall reverb. Will have no effect on the bass cacellation though )

Rest after I look into the plots :)
 
Last edited:
@DB1989 ... :)

There are two solutions to the 80hz cancellation ( There are a few more cancellations but milder in nature and I will need the exact distances from the center of the bass driver to the side walls and floor to check those out )

1. First solution without acoustic treatment - If you can pull out your speakers to a minimum of 1.43 mtrs wall to front baffle distance and measure again. This will reduce the depth of the 87.5 hz null quite a bit. And if you can plug the rear ports, then most of the cancellation should be gone.

2. Second solution with 2 x 4" inch bass traps - You can push back the speakers closer to the wall, so that the front baffle to wall distance is reduced to exactly 50 cms. Then add one 4" ( 4X2 feet ) bass trap on the wall, exactly behind each speaker. This should also minimise the null, depending on how effective the bass trap is. If you can find a bass trap with a NRC of 1.0 from 150 to 200 hz ( easy to find on auralex ) then this should do the trick. You can try placing two traps behind one speaker at a time and a measure again with only one speaker playing. This will let us know if you need 2 traps behind each speaker or only one behind each.

3. Moving the sub woofer : Iam presuming that the above measurements were done with the 2 subs in place. If you can let me know the exact location of the 2 subs, I can see where best to move one sub without causing another cancellation, though that cant be gauranteed 🤣

Edit 1 : If either of the suggested solutions work, then I will explain what we are trying to do here :p. Otherwise no point wasting everyone's time 🤣
 
Last edited:
A beautiful, well-constructed speaker with class-leading soundstage, imaging and bass that is fast, deep, and precise.
Back
Top