Objectivity vs Subjectivity

[mbhangui]

Some guy!!!

Yes. Some Guy
Bruno Putzeys, Co-Founder
Inventor of UcD (Philips), probably still the most widely used class-D amplifier for upmarket audio products. Inventor of Ncore (Hypex), which is generally considered the first class-D amplifier to successfully compete with class-A on audio performance. Developed high performance A/D and D/A converter designs for Grimm and Mola-Mola. Co-founder for Kii Audio. Holds 9 patents and multiple patent disclosures

 

[square_wave]

Square_wave, what amp do you have?

Lyric audio ti100 mk2.

 

[vkalia]

Some guy!!!

And it wasn't meant to be a rebuttal, definite or not. A bit touchy aren't we?

When you just post just that quote without any context, it comes across as a rebuttal.

And yes, when it comes to judging optimal design for musicality as the goal, everybody is “SOME GUY” - no one gets to definitively state that there is only one path to musicality, or even one perfect path to designing a certain product. If you (a general “you”, not you specifically) believe in a certain design philosophy purely because someone else, no matter how qualified, says so, then it is not a science/fact-driven belief but a faith-based belief.

 

[vkalia]

Yes. Some Guy
Bruno Putzeys, Co-Founder
Inventor of UcD (Philips), probably still the most widely used class-D amplifier for upmarket audio products. Inventor of Ncore (Hypex), which is generally considered the first class-D amplifier to successfully compete with class-A on audio performance. Developed high performance A/D and D/A converter designs for Grimm and Mola-Mola. Co-founder for Kii Audio. Holds 9 patents and multiple patent disclosures

Let’s try this again - this time without the blind Appeal to Authority approach (“he said so, so it is true”).

Bruno Putzeys is SOME guy. John Curl is SOME guy. Nelson Pass is SOME guy. No one has a single monopoly on the perfect amplifier design - they all have their own beliefs on what makes a good amp and the engineering skills to achieve that goal. And while those engineering skills are far beyond ours, that doesn’t mean we have to agree with their belief on what makes a good amp.

What started this was my hypothesis that negative feedback destroys timbral accuracy. I have listend to Hypex-based amps (Rogue Audio). The NAD I own is based on an evolution of his design as well, incidentally. It still does not touch a single ended tube amp in making violins sound like violins and pianos sound like pianos. Not. Even. Close. Neither did the John Curl Parasound i used to own. So quoting some guy who makes amps that dont sound as good to my ears isnt exactly a resounding counter-argument. Here is what that sounds like:

Me: “negative feedback amps dont sound as good as zero feedback designs”.
The response - some guy who makes negative feedback amp disagrees.

Yeah, that’s compelling. :eyeroll:

Let me put it another way:
- No audio system reproduces live, unamplified sound perfectly - it is all about tradeoffs
- Every designer makes tradeoffs based on what s/he thinks is important, and these tradeoffs result in different sound palettes, which appeal to different people
- Quoting one designer’s preferred belief system as to what is the best tradeoffs does not make it a truism.

So yeah. Some Guy.

 

[vkalia]

I have tried adding local feedback to my then 300b SET àmplifier. They made the amplifier dull, lifeless, boring and uninteresting.

Yeah, but Bruno Wotzisname says you are wrong. Pliss to sell your SET and buy a class D Hypex amp.

I mean, Bruno says so.



The other part of this is dampening factor. NFB is usually used to achieve higher dampening factors - this results in what audioweenies love to call “tight bass”

I dont know about others, but i have never been in a concert hall and heard timpanis or organs have TIGHT bass. That bass reverbates and echoes all over the place. Again, my hypothesis is that a high dampening factor actually reduces some of the harmonics/tonal depth that one would perceive in a live performance (the decay, so to speak). And that is where some of the realism gets lost.

This is a hypothesis, of course - the test case for this would be to try different amplifier topologies and see people‘s preferences (using live, unamplified instruments as the benchmark of accurate reproduction), to see if there any trends. My n=1 data set is valid for me, but a larger sample size could provide some better direction into the quest for more lifelike (which is != most accurate) reproduction of sound.

 

[coaltrain]

Lyric audio ti100 mk2.

Gorgeous amp!
Are you running the Tungsol KT170s? If yes, could you share your subjective listening impressions, please?
I’ve yet to hear the 170s myself.

 

[keith_correa]

Yes. Some Guy
Bruno Putzeys, Co-Founder
Inventor of UcD (Philips), probably still the most widely used class-D amplifier for upmarket audio products. Inventor of Ncore (Hypex), which is generally considered the first class-D amplifier to successfully compete with class-A on audio performance. Developed high performance A/D and D/A converter designs for Grimm and Mola-Mola. Co-founder for Kii Audio. Holds 9 patents and multiple patent disclosures

Oh, "that" random guy from Hades? But, but, he goes around measuring! The horror!
And like my posts, what exactly does this post of yours add of value or newness to this topic? Do his amplifiers output flea watts? At what "o'clock" position of the volume dial in his amplifiers do his neighbours complain? Does his wife who is not an audiophile (naturellement) but who hears like a bat (don't all wives do?) approve of his amps? Are the neighbours objectivists or subjectivists? Now "these" if brought up in a word salad would add real value and bring about enlightenment to us and make our weekend - do try to think about all of this. Meanwhile, the carcass of the poor equine has started to decompose.

Go ahead, make my day!!!

 

[mbhangui]

Oh, "that" random guy from Hades? But, but, he goes around measuring! The horror!

But he missed out something that is coming very often in this forum. Apparently there is something called soul and life which music has that he failed to measure. Which explains why his hypex amps are lifeless and soulless. Tube amps have these angels/devas/spirits/genies trapped in the vacum of the glass bottles imparting the soul and life to the music. The hypex amps use IC which have the ogre/rakshas/devil/shaitan sucking the soul and the life out of the music as it passes through the sand particles these ICs are made of.

 

[Bloom@83]

Listener : Your new amp sounds so wonderful …This is making me want to listen to music all day.I don’t want to move from this chair.

Engineer: But I must tell you it has THD way above 1.0 and SNR close to fifty.

Listener : Yes I knew it ! My inner scientist was telling me something WAS wrong with this amp.. Wish you luck selling this garbage.

 

[vkalia]

But he missed out something that is coming very often in this forum. Apparently there is something called soul and life which music has that he failed to measure. Which explains why his hypex amps are lifeless and soulless. Tube amps have these angels/devas/spirits/genies trapped in the vacum of the glass bottles imparting the soul and life to the music. The hypex amps use IC which have the ogre/rakshas/devil/shaitan sucking the soul and the life out of the music as it passes through the sand particles these ICs are made of.

i find that when someone is not able to respond with logic, they engage in a mutual circle jerk of strawmen to deflect: instead of replying to the post at hand, they make up stuff and reply to that.

Sounds familiar?

If you think SETs and solid state amps sound the same, then consider yourself lucky - being tone deaf should save you a lot of money.

 

[keith_correa]

But he missed out something that is coming very often in this forum. Apparently there is something called soul and life which music has that he failed to measure. Which explains why his hypex amps are lifeless and soulless. Tube amps have these angels/devas/spirits/genies trapped in the vacum of the glass bottles imparting the soul and life to the music. The hypex amps use IC which have the ogre/rakshas/devil/shaitan sucking the soul and the life out of the music as it passes through the sand particles these ICs are made of.

Now, now, don't be so dismissive of glass bottles. I love glass bottles filled with liquids colored amber. They almost always have the demon in them.

 

[vkalia]

Oh, "that" random guy from Hades? But, but, he goes around measuring! The horror!
And like my posts, what exactly does this post of yours add of value or newness to this topic? Do his amplifiers output flea watts? At what "o'clock" position of the volume dial in his amplifiers do his neighbours complain? Does his wife who is not an audiophile (naturellement) but who hears like a bat (don't all wives do?) approve of his amps? Are the neighbours objectivists or subjectivists? Now "these" if brought up in a word salad would add real value and bring about enlightenment to us and make our weekend - do try to think about all of this. Meanwhile, the carcass of the poor equine has started to decompose.

Go ahead, make my day!!!

I have no idea what you are rambling on about.

Maybe get Bruno to help you simplify?

 

[mbhangui]

Now, now, don't be so dismissive of glass bottles. I love glass bottles filled with liquids colored amber. They almost always have the demon in them.

This is a real picture of my cupboard in my music room. My wife never opens this cupboard and she always wonders why I'm happy when I come out of my music listening sessions.

 

[keith_correa]

I have no idea what you are rambling on about.

Wasn't meant for you to understand. Feel free to ignore like you have advised us so freely in the past on this thread.

Maybe get Bruno to help you simplify?

Who? Oh, that strawman? OK!

 

[Bloom@83]

This is a real picture of my cupboard in my music room. My wife never opens this cupboard and she always wonders why I'm happy when I come out of my music listening sessions.

View attachment 69395

Do you still need to turn around your speakers 180 degrees facing towards the TV , and sit with your back to the aforementioned TV to make them sound good ? In that case , that Glenn is sorely needed ….

 

[vkalia]

Wasn't meant for you to understand. Feel free to ignore like you have advised us so freely in the past on this thread.

Oh don’t worry, I already do that (ignore you) when it comes to any kind of meaningful discussion of audio.

The lack of any meaningful content posted by you makes it easier.

 

[vkalia]

Now, in a possibly vain attempt to get past bruised egos and irrelevant chest thumping, has anyone compared a zero feedback solid state amp to a tube amp?

Is there even such a thing as a zero feedback SS amp? I know Nelson Pass designs come closest to single ended tube amps in general philosophy (if not actual design) but it has been a long while since I have read his white papers and I don’t know if he has any ZFB designs or not.

It would be interesting to see how much of the SET sound comes from the “T” vs the “SE”.

Or, come to think of it, is there a well-regarded design or a SE solid state amp? I may build one myself to compare.

 

[Nitin K]

This is a real picture of my cupboard in my music room. My wife never opens this cupboard and she always wonders why I'm happy when I come out of my music listening sessions.
View attachment 69395

Wonderful tip Sir. No surprises that your music must be sounding ethereal, warm without any audible distortion.
Let's hope this does not escalate into a debate between liquid tubes and vaccum tubes.

 

[Hiten]

Or, come to think of it, is there a well-regarded design or a SE solid state amp? I may build one myself to compare.

Susan Parkers Zeus amplifier is zero feedback but push pull Solid State amplifier. There may be other SE SS amps I am sure.
Regards

 

[arj]

Now, in a possibly vain attempt to get past bruised egos and irrelevant chest thumping, has anyone compared a zero feedback solid state amp to a tube amp?

Is there even such a thing as a zero feedback SS amp? I know Nelson Pass designs come closest to single ended tube amps in general philosophy (if not actual design) but it has been a long while since I have read his white papers and I don’t know if he has any ZFB designs or not.

It would be interesting to see how much of the SET sound comes from the “T” vs the “SE”.

Or, come to think of it, is there a well-regarded design or a SE solid state amp? I may build one myself to compare.

I think the Sugden Amps are SE and I believe ZFB as well. I used to own the original A21a many years ago..for its price its very refined but doubt it can do as well as a SET
The Sugden used to measure pretty bad but sound very good