Power cables - am bewildered!

[keith_correa]

<snip>I am not debating either for or against exotic power cables, but curious to know if some one has really experienced a significant or even a subtle improvement with those cables.

Please - let's not go there

 

[square_wave]

Good one Arj. I agree 100%
Cheers,
Sid

Yes - agree with this. If you doubt, it is wise not to go there. You will also save a lot of time by not thinking or talking about it

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

A very basic and logical question/point you have put. I haven't seen any direct answer for your question. Of course Thad has presented his thoughts very nicely.

But I am not denying the possibility of RFI, as described in the link a few posts back by the Lampizator guy (here). But his cure to that is not an exotic cable costing hundreds of dollars, or a device costing thousands of dollars, it is a simple RF filter costing just a few dollars.

...but curious to know if some one has really experienced a significant or even a subtle improvement with those cables.

Of course! In fact someone might be demonstrating the difference to me tomorrow. And if I don't hear it ...all the potential psychoacoustic reasons for hearing something equally apply to not hearing it hyeah:

 

[keith_correa]

Yes - agree with this. If you doubt, it is wise not to go there. You will also save a lot of time by not thinking or talking about it

OK, gottit! So what I conclude is that FM's should not ask questions in this forum that no one has the ability to [un]convincingly answer.
I also conclude that there should be no doubts raised - one has to blindly follow. Shakti stones, here I come.
And thank you for the advice for saving my time. It will not be taken.

 

[keith_correa]

<snip>Of course! In fact someone might be demonstrating the difference to me tomorrow. And if I don't hear it ...all the potential psychoacoustic reasons for hearing something equally apply to not hearing it hyeah:

I will eagerly wait for you to post your experience tomorrow. Have a good one.

 

[Santy]

Let's face it.
There are two type of Audiophiles.
An audiophile who is an Engineer.
The other audiophile who is not.

The Engineer Audiophile will look for numbers. Is it provable? Is it scientifically possible? Does it make sense?
Thinking so dosen't mean that they they are close-minded. Infact they are possibly so open minded that during a listening test they make sure they are not getting carried away by the notions surrounding the stuff that are used. Like expensive cables 'ought' to make a difference. They think about what physical properties can contribute to any difference if there could be any.

The non-Engineer Audiophile thinks it dosen't matter why or how it could make a difference. They believe it just does. They are like theists. Not provable dosen't mean things don't exist. There is no need to explain the numbers. Because ears are the ultimate tool. It is no perfect measuring tool but that is what connects us to the music. It has all the capacity to hear the difference especially if they are "trained".










Now look at this cable

Now look at this one

Well you took a very little time to focus on the first one. Because it is nothing exciting. Just some regular stuff that is seen behind all the PCs in our office. You didn't bother to correlate it with an audio system and wonder how it would impact the sound. Though that is the subject of this thread.

But you spent a considerable amount of time gazing at the second one. Why? Becuase it looks cool. It seems to be of some high end 'audiophile kind'. You thought this is different. You thought this must be expensive.

It is this thought sometimes gets proliferated towards the end of the listening tests. It just stays in our mind. Our mind is a powerful influencer. It has the power to twist the reality. It has the power to deceive anyone especially the ones with 'open mind'. Because they are open to accept anything.

 

[captrajesh]

Of course we differ. I'm not you and you are not me and just because we differ does not make my approach wrong or yours right and vice versa.

I think someone with a more rational mind than both of us has to take that call.

No, I was trying to understand WHY using "audiophile" cables for the last mile would make a difference when "hash"/"garbage"/whatchumaycallit may already be in the line till the point of the switch and how these "audiophile" cables eliminate what is already in there if there is no power conditioning applied after the switch on the wall. Phew!

That's what I meant here in one sentence so that I need not say 'Phew'

I thought we were trying to discern why do the differences exist in the first place

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Now look at this cable

...


Now look at this one

Initial reaction: They will neither of them properly fit any socket that I have. I am not sure about the second one, but the first one depends on being plugged into a particular type of European socket to even have an effective earth. I get really pissed off when I am sold a device, in India, with this (or any other non-Indian) kind of plug.

It's true that the second one is more eyecatching, but why do I need transparent plug covers (so I can see the sparks?) and hey, that's another not-fitting-properly two-pin, isn't it?

The open plait is pretty. In a month it will have a fourth component: a considerable amount of dust tha not even one of those audiophile wipes (and yes, I bought those once) will ever remove.

I guess I belong to a third category: the tediously practical hyeah:

 

[doors666]

Now look at this one

Yup, it sure looks good.... so does a rolex as compared to a timex... but rolex never claims it shows better time than a timex

 

[jls001]

Initial reaction: They will neither of them properly fit any socket that I have.

I had the same reaction

Schuko pins are a no-no in Indian sockets as the grounding arrangements are very different and not compatible. If you persist with Schuko pins in Indian sockets, ground is not connected and therefore very dangerous. But if one takes the trouble of making a distribution board with Schuko sockets, they are real good.

 

[sjith]

@arj
agree wth you
investing a huge amount in power chord is a wastage of money
use a good firm plug socket with a proper grounding

the philosophy is

expensive branded speakers, amplifiers, players etc. then why don't invest in power chord. get an expensive power chord too

 

[koushik]

Yup, it sure looks good.... so does a rolex as compared to a timex... but rolex never claims it shows better time than a timex

Nope, this is not an apt comparison. Watch is not a performance oriented device. I have no say to the thread in particular. So,I am going OT and so are you. Superior thing (may) performs better when they are meant to be performance oriented. Can we have your sentence replaced with Maruti and Ferrari please? And then replace all other things in the sentence sensibly

BTW, I have never ever tried different cables and always have used the stock cable. So I am neutral to the thread topic.

 

[sjith]

a transformer in the amplifier separates the input and output stages. all the power conditioning devices like caps, rectifiers voltage regulators etc. are all coming in in the output stage. if the power cable which we are using is doing its function like supply enough current at a desired voltage and frequency with proper earthing or grounding, rest is with the output stage

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Nope, this is not an apt comparison. Watch is not a performance oriented device. I have no say to the thread in particular. So,I am going OT and so are you. Superior thing (may) performs better when they are meant to be performance oriented. Can we have your sentence replaced with Maruti and Ferrari please? And then replace all other things in the sentence sensibly

BTW, I have never ever tried different cables and always have used the stock cable. So I am neutral to the thread topic.

I don't think it is off-topic to get our analogies sorted out.

A Rolex watch is a performance-oriented device. Tp achieve precision and accuracy in watchmaking is a great feet (EDIT: or feat, even! ). These days we are spoilt, because the cheapest of watches keep pretty good time: even in my childhood this was not the case, and a modest-cost watch was more than ok if it gained or lost no more than a minute or two a day. The extraordinary design and engineering skills that went into a watch that did much better than that bring it into the territory of your Maruti/Ferrari comparison, albeit that a watch is not better because it goes faster --- it is better because it goes at the right speed. The finest mechanical watches are always going to be expensive, even in the plainest of stainless-steel cases. Add on the bling, the solid gold case/bracelet, the diamond studding, blah blah and the already high price goes through the roof, but people know they are paying for bling, for a decorative status symbol on their wrist. Some, if not many, of the buyers know that they also paying for serious, realistic precision engineering that will last several lifetimes, and with maintenance and minor repair, might last for ever.

The cheap-end watch market, in terms of telling the time, has caught up, in much the same way as the cheap-end hifi market has: cheap watches are not Rolexes, but hey, they tell the time. cheap stereos are not [insert your dream brand] but hey, they no longer sound just totally dreadful.

<Breaking News! I didn't actually intend to do this, but I realise I'm actually turning the rolex analogy on its head!>

People who buy Rolex do so either for the bling and the intrinsic value, or for the engineering excellence. Both are real, genuine, and understood.

.

 

[koushik]

So in a way, you agreed with me and said that the analogy put in terms of Rolex and timex is not apt

Yup, it sure looks good.... so does a rolex as compared to a timex... but rolex never claims it shows better time than a timex

The voice of the comparison, above, was that Rolex looks cool but does nothing better than timex.

-I said, not apt comparison.
-You said, Rolex does do something better than Timex.

 

[Santy]

Well I was not trying to be precise with the sockets. Just to show the visual appeal of a generic cheap looking cable and an exotic fancy looking power cable. Truth is many get impressed by the extravagance of the cables.

I too love analogies. On the surface, some appear to be an amazing match while conceptually they can be quite wrong. I also think Rolex or Mont Blanc analogies when introduced can hijack any discussion. Still I would not hesitate to say that Rolex does not claim anything that cannot be proved. They are expensive for the quality, craftsmanship, precision, technology and all are parameters that can be put on papers. They are not subjective. The quality of power cords can also be defined and proved but not the effect they claim to bring to the sound quality. On the other hand, I am also not sure if audiophiles buy expensive power cables for the prestige it adds, as Rolex does.

Coming back to the topic, I would like to know why hifi audio equipment manufacturers do not make their own power chord upgrades? I wish to have some knowledge on it if they do.

 

[asliarun]

Perhaps another analogy could be to claim that certain brand of camera batteries give better pictures than others??

This may have been said before but can't power cable guys do something straightforward like measure the electricity input with their cables vis a vis standard cables, and share those measurements, possibly for a well know audiophile song that might make challenging current demands ?

Why is this specific product offering shrouded in mystery when good solid data is available for all other audio components?

Another question - if power cables make so much of a difference, does this mean that amplifiers are delivering severely distorted audio signals if off the shelf power cables are used? Does this mean that their thd numbers are a lie, or does this mean that the numbers are only applicable in lab conditions with perfect current supply and are not relevant in real world usage?

Or does this mean that the music coloration or effect caused by power cables are outside the realm of distortion or other measurable attributes? Or maybe that is a whole another debate entirely. I don't even understand how music can sound warm or bright while still not being considered distorted. Or maybe it is to do with relative loudness of certain frequency bands. If so, why isn't anyone bothering to measure these things I.e. warmth, airy, clinical, bright etc. Isn't it fair to say that an audio playback system that alters the relative loudness of certain frequencies is distorting the source signal? Shouldn't this be fairly easy to measure as well?

Sorry, I am really meandering.

 

[arj]

deleted...

 

[keith_correa]

a transformer in the amplifier separates the input and output stages. all the power conditioning devices like caps, rectifiers voltage regulators etc. are all coming in in the output stage. if the power cable which we are using is doing its function like supply enough current at a desired voltage and frequency with proper earthing or grounding, rest is with the output stage

Now take the cable out of this equation and consider ONLY the power "quality". If the "quality" is "bad" what then? Will your so called "output stages" be fine and function OK?

 

[keith_correa]

Threads like this go nowhere because they start degenerating or move into an unrelated tangent. Consider my original question, in response, there were posts about how power cables do nothing and how I was wasting my time and about comparisons of watches and cars et al. Now it has moved into the realm of "do power cables work". Do they? Who cares? I don't and I'm not interested in whether you do or don't.

Hence it is fairly improbable that the answer to this question is going to be found on this forum as no one knows the truth here and if one has arrived at the truth based on findings then please be at peace with it.

If it is improbable that the answer will be found, this thread will die a natural death the way it should. Let's not keep it alive by all of us rambling on unrelated and unsolicited drivel.

As before if it is to receive additional knowledge then it will not be found here and if it is to Give additional knowledge please post the same
if nothing else this post can be a compendium of all such posts.

Does this forum exist only to share knowledge? And not to gain knowledge by asking for an answer/opinion on a specific question/topic? I seem to have missed that. Giving is fine but receiving is not? So I should expect to provide/share knowledge but no one else is supposed to receive that shared knowledge because receiving is somehow forbidden?

Neither am I targeting the OP on his view..but more of frustration on seeing threads of this sort which dont go anywhere/end and no one anyway learns anything new other than what they already think is right.

Feel free not to clutter this thread because of your "frustration". We will know where this thread goes IF we stop going OT. And let's leave it to the maturity/intelligence of the FM's to decide if they are learning anything new or not and let's not try to thrust our views/opinions on them, shall we?