Power plant PS AUDIO

[lord_musik]

This is a very provocative statement. And the way I saw it, a bit Luddite in its direction. Are you saying that those measurements should not be trusted? or not relevant? Its an empirical fact that no matter what their public posture, a lot of “trust your ears, not measurements” manufacturers have cleaned up their act post a revealing ASR review. That gamut runs from Denon to Schiit and for the vast majority of people who are unable to try before buy it (ASR) provides a strong basis for shortlisting.

Anyway welcome to the forum. This was your first post. I hope your second will introduce you and your audio journey to us. Would love to get a sense of the depth of your perspective,

I’m known to make those sir (though without malicious intent)…I tend to share my unadulterated and unfiltered thoughts

I see the ASR trend here too. I come across many folks every day on this forum who tend to pass a judgement:
1. Without ever trying in their own.
2. Downplay or outright dismiss just because it’s out of their budget. Or if they are unwilling to spend on a device that falls into a certain category.
3. Downplay or outright dismiss just because something operates outside of conventional wisdom.
4. Downplay or outright dismiss just because something that may not measure well.
5. Most of us make no effort to recognise our own biases and tend to rally/mob/gang up.

I wish people keep an open mind. I believe measurements are only one side of the coin. I also believe if two components from two manufacturers won’t sound the same even though they measure exactly the same. And there are many many things can’t be measured.

I’m not saying we should ignore measurements completely. It’s just that they don’t tell the whole story.

Under this pseudonym. The writing style, the dig at ASR and the narcissistic sounding pseudonym which also suggests a liking for music are strongly suggestive of another FM. No way for me to prove it, of course. Just a hunch.

You are partly correct sir. Which part I cannot tell you sir

 

[kapvin]

This is where it is wrong. it will rarely be.

A well engineered product does not mean it will sound the same. same way as different well engineered cars will not feel the same while driving.



I get what you are trying to say, the point perhaps is the person who is buying it may be paying only 20% of the value for the sound quality. the rest of the 80% may be for the brand and the feeling of exclusivity. so he is still getting what he is paying for..while most of us will be happy buying 1/5th of the price for one which might still give the value but not the same bragging rights.

Going back to cars, the BMW X1 will have the same or lesser ride quality as a Toyota innova but in terms of brand value perception etc is far higher. There are people buying both and happy with their choice and both are very well engineered products !

I was going to use the car example to prove my point.

Cars are set to optimise between various trade offs. cost (both TCO and put down) safety performance, green creds, comfort, accomodation.

By the very definition of the word, High fFdelity means a single optimisation axis, sound as it should be (or as the artist/ mastering engineer intended) which generally means signal passing unmolested. So in my view my point stands reinforced by your example

On the other hand if your optimisation is “sounds good to me“ then your simile with cars stand, with multiple optimisation axis and a lot other qualitative measures come in.

 

[arj]

I was going to use the car example to prove my point.

Cars are set to optimise between various trade offs. cost (both TCO and put down) safety performance, green creds, comfort, accomodation.

By the very definition of the word, High fFdelity means a single optimisation axis, sound as it should be (or as the artist/ mastering engineer intended) which generally means signal passing unmolested. So in my view my point stands reinforced by your example

On the other hand if your optimisation is “sounds good to me“ then your simile with cars stand, with multiple optimisation axis and a lot other qualitative measures come in.

point taken on intent although reality is i doubt there is any equipment which will ever sound the same ( room. location system and listener being kept constant) since every design has a compromise and will vary.

Theoretically you may be correct though. practically dont think there is a situation like that at least I am aware of ( other than Bob Carvers famous test...)

 

[venkatcr]

As someone once said, chemical analysis can never decide which wine is better. Thus, remains ASR measurements too

This is an incorrect analogy.

Let me narrate an event I attended in one of the hotels where they were allowing us to taste single malts. The usual nonsense of taking cold and hot tea before every taste, etc.

In any case, a lot of us came across a particular bottle whose malt had a burnt smell (smell, mind you, not taste). After a lot of persuasion, the truth came out. It seem in one of their warehouses, they store a lot of whisky to age in wooden barrels. Unfortunately for them, there was a factory nearby that was spewing a lot of smoke. In time, that smoke reached the warehouse and seeped into the whisky.

So what did the company do? Instead of throwing away all their whisky or selling it at discounted prices, they bottled it in a different color, added a new label, a new name, charged some 25$ more and sold the entire lot!

Is that not brilliant? What is essentially a kind of pollution is marketed as a new taste and charged extra. The person who is used to drinking can easily discern this at the drop of a hat. And, a good chemical comparison can clearly mark any pollution out. Whether the wine of whisky is better or worse is a different matter.

So there is always enough gear, which doesn't garner his praise, and can still sound stunning. If I were to believe him blindly, no one needs anything more than a Topping dac, with a Topping power amp, till they come out with a Topping speaker in due time

And why not? If Topping, or any other brand, measures well and delivers the goods, why spend 1000s of $ on a marketing gimmick or a brand that just charges more for the name.

If you look at Class D, ICEPower, Purifi, and other technologies are shaking the foundation of well established players and competing with Class A. Companies like NAD and Parasound have quietly adopted the technologies so that they dont lose out. If you know which model of ICEPower a company is using, you will get a broad idea of the performance and specs you can expect. Then, it is just a question of price and your trust in the company you are buying.

If you take computers, for example, either an Intel or an AMD CPU has a predefined circuit that is followed by all MB manufacturers. Every time Qualcomm releases a new CPU, it also releases the complete circuit for using the CPU to all mobile manufacturers. Each manufacturer adds minor variations to differentiate himself from the others.

The time is not far away when TI, Microchip or some such manufacturer will design an IC that will become the standard in amplification. When that happens manufacturers will have very little leeway is design and offerings.

Cheers

 

[Enkay78]

I’m known to make those sir (though without malicious intent)…I tend to share my unadulterated and unfiltered thoughts

I see the ASR trend here too. I come across many folks every day on this forum who tend to pass a judgement:
1. Without ever trying in their own.
2. Downplay or outright dismiss just because it’s out of their budget. Or if they are unwilling to spend on a device that falls into a certain category.
3. Downplay or outright dismiss just because something operates outside of conventional wisdom.
4. Downplay or outright dismiss just because something that may not measure well.
5. Most of us make no effort to recognise our own biases and tend to rally/mob/gang up.

I wish people keep an open mind. I believe measurements are only one side of the coin. I also believe if two components from two manufacturers won’t sound the same even though they measure exactly the same. And there are many many things can’t be measured.

I’m not saying we should ignore measurements completely. It’s just that they don’t tell the whole story.


You are partly correct sir. Which part I cannot tell you sir

I wish these conclusions were that simple and as stated.


But unfortunately, as far as me, these diagnosis are as wrong as it can be.

And I don’t feel the need to explain. It cannot be that obtuse with all these threads.

 

[Bloom@83]

So there is always enough gear, which doesn't garner his praise, and can still sound stunning. If I were to believe him blindly, no one needs anything more than a Topping dac, with a Topping power amp, till they come out with a Topping speaker in due time

And why not? If Topping, or any other brand, measures well and delivers the goods, why spend 1000s of $ on a marketing gimmick or a brand that just charges more for the name.

It probably doesn’t matter that Topping chief designer & manufacturer is a member of ASR

 

[sandeepsasi]

Turns out Topping chief designer & manufacturer is a member of ASR.

It is not just Topping, even representatives of Allo, Gustard and iFi are also members of ASR. May be there are more.

It is in fact a good thing (IMO). I was recently reading Gustard X16's review and many people complained about the miniscule display of volume setting on the LCD. Gustard acknowledged the problem and their next product, X18 has a redesigned display with a larger font size for volume, based on community feedback.

Manufacturers also respond to technical questions, which I enjoy reading. They also give heads up about upcoming firmware updates and bug fixes, again based on community feedback.

This is another advantage of ASR, apart from the published measurements (IMO).

I usually depend on ASR to view the graphs and skip the final comments on how the product sounds and the recommendation and ranking ritual. For that, there are other forms.

With regards,
Sandeep Sasi

 

[Bloom@83]

It is not just Topping, even representatives of Allo, Gustard and iFi are also members of ASR. May be there are more.

It is in fact a good thing (IMO). I was recently reading Gustard X16's review and many people complained about the miniscule display of volume setting on the LCD. Gustard acknowledged the problem and their next product, X18 has a redesigned display with a larger font size for volume, based on community feedback.

Manufacturers also respond to technical questions, which I enjoy reading. They also give heads up about upcoming firmware updates and bug fixes, again based on community feedback.

This is another advantage of ASR, apart from the published measurements (IMO).

I usually depend on ASR to view the graphs and skip the final comments on how the product sounds and the recommendation ritual. For that, there are other forms.

With regards,
Sandeep Sasi

That’s the good aspect. However I’m too much jaded to believe it also doesn’t lead to any favourable reviews / bias.

 

[mbhangui]

That’s the good aspect. However I’m too much jaded to believe it also doesn’t lead to any favourable reviews / bias.

Whom to believe. Prophet from hi-fi magazines and their bhakts who says their golden ears proclaims this equipment costing x dollars to be the best or someone who publishes scientific data with measurements on ASR?

 

[keith_correa]

It probably doesn’t matter that Topping chief designer & manufacturer is a member of ASR

Why should it matter? He's just a subscriber - one among many. Answers questions directly and clarifies if needed. Where you you see the problem with that?
So, let's play along & assume that it may matter. Can you list out scenarios where being a designer and also a subsriber may "matter"?

 

[Nitin K]

Why should it matter? He's just a subscriber - one among many. Answers questions directly and clarifies if needed. Where you you see the problem with that?
So, let's play along & assume that it may matter. Can you list out scenarios where being a designer and also a subsriber may "matter"?

There are other manufacturers too like Mr. Dennis Murphy who is also a member. Infact it is good because they answer the technical queries pertaining to measurements or about their products from users and reviewers and also take feedback from users which is great . That surely does not mean that their products would get a good rating despite poor measurements if they are members.

 

[Bloom@83]

Why should it matter? He's just a subscriber - one among many. Answers questions directly and clarifies if needed. Where you you see the problem with that?
So, let's play along & assume that it may matter. Can you list out scenarios where being a designer and also a subsriber may "matter"?

Seriously ? You don’t see any issues with a manufacturer being part of a supposedly objective review oriented forum and not influence the people doing the reviews of his products ? Even a new born lamb isn’t that naive.
Forgot about the IndiQ fiasco even here on HFV ?

 

[keith_correa]

Whom to believe. Prophet from hi-fi magazines and their bhakts who says their golden ears proclaims this equipment costing x dollars to be the best or someone who publishes scientific data with measurements on ASR?

I think it's better for us to stay away from using terms like this to describe people like us in many respects. Others may do that and it's equally bad when they do. We should try to be better than them.

Seriously ? You don’t see any issues with a manufacturer being part of a supposedly objective review oriented forum and not influence the people doing the reviews of his products ? Even a new born lamb isn’t that naive.
Forgot about the IndiQ fiasco even here on HFV ?

I hope you can be magnanimous enough to bring yourself to forgive me for being naive.
Now, answer the damn question!

 

[Bloom@83]

I hope you can be magnanimous enough to bring yourself to forgive me for being naive.
Now, answer the damn question!

I already did. HFV has a clear policy of not allowing manufacturers promoting their own products in regular threads - there is a separate section for that. The IndiQ incident showed that on a forum it is very possible to have people tied directly or indirectly to a certain brand , promoting the same. Now who or what gives you the assurance that the same isn’t happening on ASR reviews as well , especially when the manufacturers themselves are involved , and are almost always providing their own products for review ?

 

[aeroash]

It is not just Topping, even representatives of Allo, Gustard and iFi are also members of ASR. May be there are more.

True. There was a discussion on a Shanling DAC, on ASR. The testing was aborted by Amir because he couldn’t figure out a particular issue with it, I think it was a volume issue. Subsequently, the PR and Engineer from Shanling got involved and the issue was resolved.

It’s always good when a company is proactive to assist, troubleshoot, or take feedback from its users to further improve on their products. Win Win!

 

[Nitin K]

Seriously ? You don’t see any issues with a manufacturer being part of a supposedly objective review oriented forum and not influence the people doing the reviews of his products ? Even a new born lamb isn’t that naive.
Forgot about the IndiQ fiasco even here on HFV ?

Infact it is good if a manufacturer is a part of the forum as they would not be the only knowledgeable ones around. Infact they would be more careful what to say about their products especially when objective measurements are being taken into consideration. It facilitates a healthy positive discussion if replies are made and accepted in the right mindset.
As the famous saying goes, " You can fool people sometimes but not all the time"

 

[aeroash]

allowing manufacturers promoting their own products in regular threads - there is a separate section for that.

Helping troubleshoot a product and answering questions is different from promoting a product. When a particular product is promoted it is clearly evident, and we stay away from it.
We do not need a manufacturer per se exclusively to promote a product, it can be done by anyone.

 

[Bloom@83]

I already acknowledged on Sandeep’s post that there are some definite advantages of a manufacturer’s presence, especially if he is also an engineer and not just a marketing guy. Please check three posts earlier.
Even so , my other point stands. You can never be sure that the said manufacturers are not influencing in any way reviews about their products on said forum.
The only way to trust reviews online , as I see it , is to go by reviews of those who buy products with their hard-earned money. Such reviewers are very , very few.

 

[panditji]

Just as you are not sure of the manufacturer influencing reviews of their products, you cannot be sure of the various reviewers promoting a product for which they get paid by the manufacturers... In fact it is easier for the manufacturers to pay reviewers to give glowing reviews than promote their products themselves.. In fact I have just realised that I can write glowingly about a product if I get paid decently without having heard the product.. Just putting it out there...

 

[Bloom@83]

Just as you are not sure of the manufacturer influencing reviews of their products, you cannot be sure of the various reviewers promoting a product for which they get paid by the manufacturers... In fact it is easier for the manufacturers to pay reviewers to give glowing reviews than promote their products themselves.. In fact I have just realised that I can write glowingly about a product if I get paid decently without having heard the product.. Just putting it out there...

Yes of course. This is a very rampant practice.And that’s why I mentioned that I’d only trust reviewers buying products with own money.