Pre-Amplifier upgrade

[square_wave]

Hi Murali,
Actually though there is a difference in low frequency extension driving the RG7 with the JC2 vs the Ls26, it is not a night and day difference and definitely not something that I couldn't live with (the majority of my listening is 60's jazz). The difference in resolution and immediacy, however is more pronounced, again only upon direct comparison. So I am not discounting pre-amps. purely based on o/p impedance ratings alone, it is just that since I am planning an upgrade it is an area that I want to consider. For instance the Conrad Johnson et3 & et5 preamps, both have 100 ohms output impedance in a tube design. So these may be a better match to the SL, but I wont know for sure until I audition. I used to have a CJ 17ls2 pre few years ago and it was a superb pre., so going back to CJ is fine. Another tube/hybrid design is the Nagra PLL with an output impedance of 60 ohms, but I never heard nagra's before. I believe the cat sl1 pre has an o/p impedance of 100 ohms as well. So they are available, just not sure which one will address qualities such as resolution, immediacy etc. better.
Cheers,
Sid

Adding another very worthy one. Einstein : "The tube"

50 ohms output impedence !

Einstein - Audio Components

A unique advantage with this preamp:

Use "Because each input has its own pair of tubes, The Tube allows experimentation and fine-tuning like no other preamp. You can pick the input tubes that sound best for each source." "The minute-long delay as the tubes for the current input come to life and those for the previous one die out makes quick switching among inputs an impossibility."

 

[murali]

I had read somewhere about a German tube preamp called Octave Jubilee which is supposed to have the lowest output impedance.

33 ohms to quote.

Good luck.
murali

 

[prem]

Hi Sidvee


In the underground circles, Doge 6 and Ming Da 2A3 are rated very very highly. They cost about $2000 only. Supratek Cabernet is another preamp worth considering.

 

[jls001]

Hi Sidvee


In the underground circles, Doge 6 and Ming Da 2A3 are rated very very highly. They cost about $2000 only. Supratek Cabernet is another preamp worth considering.

@prem: Doge 6 or 8?

If Doge 8, refer to this article.

Seller link here.

 

[prem]

Hi jls001

Doge 8. My mistake. Stereomojo also has reviewed it. Also on a few forums its discussed at length. I have never heard it but i would buy it blind.

 

[jls001]

i would buy it blind.

Me too if I was looking for a pre.

 

[sidvee]

Adding another very worthy one. Einstein : "The tube"

50 ohms output impedence !

Einstein - Audio Components

A unique advantage with this preamp:

Use "Because each input has its own pair of tubes, The Tube allows experimentation and fine-tuning like no other preamp. You can pick the input tubes that sound best for each source." "The minute-long delay as the tubes for the current input come to life and those for the previous one die out makes quick switching among inputs an impossibility."

Thanks square, definitely a pre amp. to audition and consider but it may be beyond my budget.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[marsilians]

.... Anyways my desire is to get the immediacy and resolution of the Jc2 combined with the warmth of the Ls26. This leads me to believe that I will be served better with a tube or tube/hybrid design. My budget - upto USD $10k...

I don't want you to be disappointed. But what you desire will be fairly hard to manage if you are going to change only the pre. Also, as you mention listener fatigue, for long have you been running the JC2 as they require a very long burn in to sound good.

What are you listening choices (since you seem to rev up volume levels) as it may be easier to narrow down.

What I have noticed with hybrid or Tube pre's is that you will lose some detail irrespective of the price point but what you will gain most significantly is the sound stage and the feeling of envelopment esp. at the price point you are after.

Apart from the Cary slp that is already mentioned, I would also look into

Joule Electra (my choice if I were to upgrade)
Conrad Johnson
BAT

Nothing against Ming Da and others but they dont stand up to Cary and others.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Hi Sidvee,
You have some very good choices in your shortlist. I have heard the CAT SL1 sig and ARC Ref3 (though in different systems). But in general, from my discussions with audiophiles here and what I heard in the auditions the CAT is definitely a higher resolution preamp compared to a ARC. The issues that you mention with LS26 will pretty much remain with Ref3 as well because that is how ARC components sounds. And generally CAT is a good match with SL, that is as per some users of Kraft say. However Lamm is still the pick of the list for me. It has the drive, immediacy, resolution and warmth, all in spades. I will take a Lamm over the CAT but I do not know how that 200 ohms output impedance of the Lamm will behave with SL.

The preamps which I would like to add to your list is:
1. Atmasphere MP1
2. Allnic L-3000A
3. Naim NAC 252 + Supercap power supply
If you are ready go used a NAC 552 is considered one of the best SS preamps ever.

 

[Dr.Bass]

And yes, you can do much better by upgrading your source than upgrading your preamp which is already fairly high rez. If you are okay opening that arena for discussion here we can do it but that will dilute your preamp thread

 

[Dr.Bass]

Someone mentioned Octave preamps. I have heard some of the Octave gears, both pre-power and integrateds, they are not very dynamic sonically, less than ARC. I have not heard the top of the line stuff which is expensive as well but generally what you are looking for in terms of resolution and immediacy may not be fulfilled by Octave.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Einstein is a super suggestion though. You may have to stretch some more for Einstein.

 

[sidvee]

Also, as you mention listener fatigue, for long have you been running the JC2 as they require a very long burn in to sound good.

What are you listening choices (since you seem to rev up volume levels) as it may be easier to narrow down.

What I have noticed with hybrid or Tube pre's is that you will lose some detail irrespective of the price point but what you will gain most significantly is the sound stage and the feeling of envelopment esp. at the price point you are after.

Apart from the Cary slp that is already mentioned, I would also look into

Joule Electra (my choice if I were to upgrade)
Conrad Johnson
BAT

.

Thanks Marsilians - my Jc2 has about 800 hours or so, so I am sure it is not a burn in issue. Believe me in the past 15 years , I have heard a lot of SS pre's in the $10k and under range, and all of them have caused listening fatigue to varying degrees, so I don't blame the Jc2 particularly and I really don't crank up the volume, maybe 75db at most, at my listening position. My choices are almost exclusively 60's jazz with partiality to wind and brass inst. - Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Fredie Hubbard, Donald Byrd etc. So there is a lot of high frequency energy in the material I am listening, so unless it is handled by the pre-amp with kid gloves, it is very easy for listening fatigue to set in. Hence my preference for tubes. I used to run all tubes for the past 10 years, but recently I got tired of changing tubes and decided to go the SS way at-least for the amp.
I will look into Joule electra, it has been recommended highly by other users as well.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[murali]

Hi Sidvee,
You have some very good choices in your shortlist. I have heard the CAT SL1 sig and ARC Ref3 (though in different systems). But in general, from my discussions with audiophiles here and what I heard in the auditions the CAT is definitely a higher resolution preamp compared to a ARC. The issues that you mention with LS26 will pretty much remain with Ref3 as well because that is how ARC components sounds. And generally CAT is a good match with SL, that is as per some users of Kraft say. However Lamm is still the pick of the list for me. It has the drive, immediacy, resolution and warmth, all in spades. I will take a Lamm over the CAT but I do not know how that 200 ohms output impedance of the Lamm will behave with SL.

The preamps which I would like to add to your list is:
1. Atmasphere MP1
2. Allnic L-3000A
3. Naim NAC 252 + Supercap power supply
If you are ready go used a NAC 552 is considered one of the best SS preamps ever.

The issues that you mention with LS26 will pretty much remain with Ref3 as well because that is how ARC components sounds.
I beg to differ here. Earlier I used the VTL 5.5 (I couldn't afford more than that) having compared with similarly priced ARC preamps at that time but found the VTL most satisfying. I also heard the 7.5 which to me was the final frontier to cross. Now that I could afford more, I looked at the ARC Ref3 and find it signficantly different from the earlier ones. It eschews global negative feedback, something I believe is very good having got used to the Ayre source and power amp which also avoid global negative feedback. I find the ARC ahead of even the 7.5 and their latest Ref5 sounds even better.
Having said that, I still enjoy the 5.5 and listen to it once in a while. It produces great music and to be frank, your emotional attachment to the music you listen is more with the 5.5 even relative to the Ref3 though I won't credit it with anything close with the soundstage, bass, midrange purity and other such analytical attributes of the Ref3.
I fully agree with your point of looking at the source as that is where it all starts. It doen't matter which $$$ amplifiers you have as long as your source is not right. The reason I still stick to my Ayre C-5 and never bothered to upgrade on that front. Even the VTL to ARC upgrade was mainly to run my entire system fully balanced as the former has only balanced outputs and not inputs.

Thanks to all and bye.
murali

 

[sidvee]

And yes, you can do much better by upgrading your source than upgrading your preamp which is already fairly high rez. If you are okay opening that arena for discussion here we can do it but that will dilute your preamp thread

At this point Dr. Bass, I do not want to upgrade the source and my intent will be to get as close as possible to my ideal sound with a pre-upgrade.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[sidvee]

However Lamm is still the pick of the list for me. It has the drive, immediacy, resolution and warmth, all in spades. I will take a Lamm over the CAT but I do not know how that 200 ohms output impedance of the Lamm will behave with SL.

I concur with you Dr. Bass, I heard an all lamm set up a few years ago and it just sounded fantastic, and yes, as you mentioned that highish Op will be a concern, but as of now I am leaning towards CJ or lamm for tubes. SS is open.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Dr.Bass]

The issues that you mention with LS26 will pretty much remain with Ref3 as well because that is how ARC components sounds.
I beg to differ here. Earlier I used the VTL 5.5 (I couldn't afford more than that) having compared with similarly priced ARC preamps at that time but found the VTL most satisfying. I also heard the 7.5 which to me was the final frontier to cross. Now that I could afford more, I looked at the ARC Ref3 and find it signficantly different from the earlier ones. It eschews global negative feedback, something I believe is very good having got used to the Ayre source and power amp which also avoid global negative feedback. I find the ARC ahead of even the 7.5 and their latest Ref5 sounds even better.
Having said that, I still enjoy the 5.5 and listen to it once in a while. It produces great music and to be frank, your emotional attachment to the music you listen is more with the 5.5 even relative to the Ref3 though I won't credit it with anything close with the soundstage, bass, midrange purity and other such analytical attributes of the Ref3.
I fully agree with your point of looking at the source as that is where it all starts. It doen't matter which $$$ amplifiers you have as long as your source is not right. The reason I still stick to my Ayre C-5 and never bothered to upgrade on that front. Even the VTL to ARC upgrade was mainly to run my entire system fully balanced as the former has only balanced outputs and not inputs.

Thanks to all and bye.
murali

In general I found ARC has a sound which is not very direct or immediate. I have heard the complete ARC preamp with a complete ARC rig as well as in a setup with Goldmund amp and SME30 TT. If immediacy is a criteria then I dont think higher ARC is the answer. If a bigger stage, better extension, more detail is the criteria then may be yes.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Please do read about Atmasphere. It is suppose to be one of the best tube preamps in the world, known for resolution and transparency.

 

[Dr.Bass]

CJ is again in the laidback camp, have heard their top of the line preamp with Karan Acoustics power amps on Focal Nova Utopia, I thought the overall sound was neutral, clean but laidback.

 

[sidvee]

Now I fully agree with your point of looking at the source as that is where it all starts. It doen't matter which $$$ amplifiers you have as long as your source is not right.murali

I am using the Ayon Cd2s, and while it is not the ultimate source I am sure it will be one of the top in the $7- $8k range, so I do not think a source change upto the $10k range will significantly change what I am hearing, unless of-course I consider a DCS level of source - I also heard the Ayon cd5 at the singapore dealer, and though I did not do a direct comparison the cd2s is not too far of this sound. I have also heard the Ayre cx7 and 5 and I will put up the Cd2s to these sources any day. I am pretty sure at this point it will boil down to synergy between the pre. and amp. something I am experiencing as I switch between the Jc2 and ls26.
Cheers,
Sid