Second innings with vinyl

[malvai]

But I guess there are limited option to audition in mumbai. So going by reviews is only way.
This is interesting. As you have clear audio I think Clear audio, project, rega are easily available to audition. What brands are available in mumbai to audition ? generally speaking does reviews help ? Once you get TT of your liking one can always tweak phonostage/amp/speakers. Right ?

See hiten, the point is that if you just read reviews you will end up with something that the reviewer likes. Its great for a pointer, but not accurate as far as one personal preferences and idiosyncrasies go.

One can easily demo a Kuzma or SME table in and around mumbai. The Kuzma dealer sits in mumbai - Khusroo Jilla.

SME is done by Cadence Pune - a long drive but worth it!

A weekend trip to Bangalore will help you audition Scheu (TLR) and VPI (Odeyssey)... i think the airfare is worth it when one considers the overall investment...

Further, after playing around with idler TT's and DD's and the more modern string drive's, i feel that the overall sonics have been refined in the more modern TT's... right from bearing tech to the tonearm optimization. I would keep a highly tweaked as a second TT. BUT NOT AS MY FIRST OPTION.

You may differ with my analysis, but that how it sounds to me...

The fact is that a lot of refinement has taken place over the past 4 decades. And one can hear the difference.

 

[prem]

Hi Malvai

I appreciate what you are saying. Its the ideal way to go about it. The problem is there is practically nothing that i can audition here in India, save a few brands and even these brands only have the lower models on display.

I guess its a risk but i see no solution.

In India, even today, most guys go in for an arranged marriage. So i guess thats the way it is buying audio equipment in India

 

[prem]

Hi Malvai

SME and Kuzma are not in my budget. That leaves me with Scheu and VPI. Scheu only has the Premier which from various reviews does not appear to be very different from the Bellavista Signature. I am not very keen on the VPI Classic. So what does that leave me with?

 

[malvai]

Hi Malvai

SME and Kuzma are not in my budget. That leaves me with Scheu and VPI. Scheu only has the Premier which from various reviews does not appear to be very different from the Bellavista Signature. I am not very keen on the VPI Classic. So what does that leave me with?

See this:
6moons audio reviews: Kuzma Stabi S &

 

[prem]

Hi Malvai

Somehow i am not very convinced about entry/mid level belt drive tables. An SME 30 or a Kuzma Reference is a different ball game. I do not have the budget for that. If i had to buy a belt table blind in the $5000 range, it would probably be a Rega 9 with the 1000 arm.

My experience with the high end brands is only their top 2 models are worth it. The rest of the models are surviving because of the brand name.

If you want value for money its better to go with solid mid level brands like Rega.

 

[malvai]

Hi Malvai

Somehow i am not very convinced about entry/mid level belt drive tables. An SME 30 or a Kuzma Reference is a different ball game. I do not have the budget for that. If i had to buy a belt table blind in the $5000 range, it would probably be a Rega 9 with the 1000 arm.

My experience with the high end brands is only their top 2 models are worth it. The rest of the models are surviving because of the brand name.

If you want value for money its better to go with solid mid level brands like Rega.

That's one way of looking at it...

But IMHO, if you go with something like a Clearaudio Ambient you'd be very very happy... just read the reviews and you'll know why... I have been with my table for more than a year now and NEVER have I felt the need to upgrade... the new stradivari will only take my joy to another level. do look into it. and if you're not in a hurry, do come over to my place and hear it for yourself. Though, currently I'd be using Clearaudio's Aurum Classics MM budget cart (it should get to me by May). But, it would still give you the Clearaudio flavour.

 

[issigonis]

>>>

I think a decision will depend on a variety of criteria :

i. sound quality as experienced in a particular set up
ii. budget
iii. ease of use & ease of set up ( for non DIY types)
iv. upgrade path capability ( with tonearms & cartridges)
v. tweakability ( for DIY types)
vi. aftermarket service quality in India

For buyers with previous experience, I guess # v will rate much higher than # iii. For buyers taking the plunge for the first time, # vi will be important.

I concur with malvai's remark that modern designs will have made improvements and likely ironed out glitches of earlier designs. Also that audition is the way to go- unfortunately not all dealers take kindly to it. Also that not many turntable makes have a presence here - no Oracle, no Basis, no Thorens, no Bauer and so on. So one has to depend upon reviews, with as awide a range of reviews as possible to even out aberrations.

prem's remark that the high end manufacturers' have better designed & manufactured models at the higher end, rather than at their lower end, is food for thought.

Does that mean that expecting good sound quality from a lower end product from a high end manufacturer (vis-avis a similarly priced product from a middle of the road manufacturer) is a no go?

For instance, why buy a Passat when you get an Accord for roughly the same price?

Or is it the familiar case of the law of diminishing ' incremental sound quality with disproportionately high cash'?

That is to say, why buy a Phaeton when a Passat does 97% of the things that the former does, at one-third the price?

Regards
issigonis

 

[shershah]

>>>

I think a decision will depend on a variety of criteria :

i. sound quality as experienced in a particular set up
ii. budget
iii. ease of use & ease of set up ( for non DIY types)
iv. upgrade path capability ( with tonearms & cartridges)
v. tweakability ( for DIY types)
vi. aftermarket service quality in India

For buyers with previous experience, I guess # v will rate much higher than # iii. For buyers taking the plunge for the first time, # vi will be important.

I concur with malvai's remark that modern designs will have made improvements and likely ironed out glitches of earlier designs. Also that audition is the way to go- unfortunately not all dealers take kindly to it. Also that not many turntable makes have a presence here - no Oracle, no Basis, no Thorens, no Bauer and so on. So one has to depend upon reviews, with as awide a range of reviews as possible to even out aberrations.

prem's remark that the high end manufacturers' have better designed & manufactured models at the higher end, rather than at their lower end, is food for thought.

Does that mean that expecting good sound quality from a lower end product from a high end manufacturer (vis-avis a similarly priced product from a middle of the road manufacturer) is a no go?

For instance, why buy a Passat when you get an Accord for roughly the same price?

Or is it the familiar case of the law of diminishing ' incremental sound quality with disproportionately high cash'?

That is to say, why buy a Phaeton when a Passat does 97% of the things that the former does, at one-third the price?

Regards
issigonis

one chooses the phaeton model over the passat for the extra nod of approval that one gets - and perhaps the larger depreciation amount that the phaeton brings to the tax table

that is to say, the top-end model always satisfies the owner better than the others - with turn-tables too

 

[prem]

Hi Malvai

The Clearaudio Ambient is more an exception than rule. IME the cheaper models of a high end brand are never great value for money. You are paying a lot for the brand name. You own the B&W 801 and the top of the line Rowland pre. Try a lower end B&W or a lower end Rowland pre and you will find its not great value for money.

I have bought and used a lot of equipment over the last 2 decades. My experience tells me if budget is limited go with a top of the line model with a mid level brand rather than a mid level model of a high end brand. Again if budget is limited i would also consider buying from manufacturers who sell direct like for example Zu Audio

Of course there are always exceptions to the rule.

 

[prem]

Hi Issigonis

When buying things like a car or a watch, status symbol comes in. Its a different ball game all together. Fortunately for us, in audio, status symbol has not kicked in.

 

[malvai]

Hi Malvai

The Clearaudio Ambient is more an exception than rule. IME the cheaper models of a high end brand are never great value for money. You are paying a lot for the brand name. You own the B&W 801 and the top of the line Rowland pre. Try a lower end B&W or a lower end Rowland pre and you will find its not great value for money.

I have bought and used a lot of equipment over the last 2 decades. My experience tells me if budget is limited go with a top of the line model with a mid level brand rather than a mid level model of a high end brand. Again if budget is limited i would also consider buying from manufacturers who sell direct like for example Zu Audio

Of course there are always exceptions to the rule.

I agree with you 100%. But there are superb mid-level decks that come out trumps! Ambient is one of them. The Gyrodeck is another. The SME 10 is a superb sounding deck too and could be in your budget (ie of the Indian dealership hasn't put in a humongous markup.)

 

[prem]

Hi Malvai


My take is a little different. I normally do not believe in auditions unless the set up is very similar to what i have.

For example the Ambient sounds fabulous on your set up. I will come listen to it, agree with you its great but that does not mean i will buy it. The logic is simple. Our amp speaker topologies are very different. You have a state of the art solid state amp with a top of the line dynamic speaker. I have a modern tube amp using 1960s Tung Sols and speakers using Lowthers. Trust me, the Ambient is going to sound very different at my place as compared to yours.

So i would rather look at what people who own single drivers/horns and tube amps use. In our own very forum you have Anilva with a Fostex and a First Watt using a modded Technics SP 10. You have Rajiv with field coils and tubes liking his modded Thorens 124. Even Viren prefers the Garrard to the Linn 12. Shindo who make tube amps and field coil speakers decided to mod a Garrard. They could have easily chosen to make a belt drive. A lot of other people on other forums somehow end up liking a direct drive/idler drive table with horns and tubes. After interacting with a number of guys i feel there is some synergy between tubes, horns and idler/direct drives.

If i had a modern amp and modern speakers, i would have looked only at belt drives

 

[issigonis]

Hi Malvai


My take is a little different. I normally do not believe in auditions unless the set up is very similar to what i have.

For example the Ambient sounds fabulous on your set up. I will come listen to it, agree with you its great but that does not mean i will buy it. The logic is simple. Our amp speaker topologies are very different. You have a state of the art solid state amp with a top of the line dynamic speaker. I have a modern tube amp using 1960s Tung Sols and speakers using Lowthers. Trust me, the Ambient is going to sound very different at my place as compared to yours.

So i would rather look at what people who own single drivers/horns and tube amps use. In our own very forum you have Anilva with a Fostex and a First Watt using a modded Technics SP 10. You have Rajiv with field coils and tubes liking his modded Thorens 124. Even Viren prefers the Garrard to the Linn 12. Shindo who make tube amps and field coil speakers decided to mod a Garrard. They could have easily chosen to make a belt drive. A lot of other people on other forums somehow end up liking a direct drive/idler drive table with horns and tubes. After interacting with a number of guys i feel there is some synergy between tubes, horns and idler/direct drives.

If i had a modern amp and modern speakers, i would have looked only at belt drives

>>>

prem,

Interesting insight.

So if I were to consider a pure A operation SET valve based phonostage--line pre-amp-power amp--speakers ( for valves), then should I consider a direct drive turntable? Do we have any reports or information available?

So far I was considering a belt drive only turntable, simply because these are the best of turntables available today, with today's technologies.

Regards

 

[malvai]

Hi Malvai


My take is a little different. I normally do not believe in auditions unless the set up is very similar to what i have.

For example the Ambient sounds fabulous on your set up. I will come listen to it, agree with you its great but that does not mean i will buy it. The logic is simple. Our amp speaker topologies are very different. You have a state of the art solid state amp with a top of the line dynamic speaker. I have a modern tube amp using 1960s Tung Sols and speakers using Lowthers. Trust me, the Ambient is going to sound very different at my place as compared to yours.

So i would rather look at what people who own single drivers/horns and tube amps use. In our own very forum you have Anilva with a Fostex and a First Watt using a modded Technics SP 10. You have Rajiv with field coils and tubes liking his modded Thorens 124. Even Viren prefers the Garrard to the Linn 12. Shindo who make tube amps and field coil speakers decided to mod a Garrard. They could have easily chosen to make a belt drive. A lot of other people on other forums somehow end up liking a direct drive/idler drive table with horns and tubes. After interacting with a number of guys i feel there is some synergy between tubes, horns and idler/direct drives.

If i had a modern amp and modern speakers, i would have looked only at belt drives

Prem, I really am not sure why they are not using belt drives... but what i am sure about IS that a belt drive TT would work just as well in each of their setup.

The SP10 is a marvel when it comes to DD tech, the Thorens and the Garrards are super idler tech examples. but one has to spend time with each to understand what they add or subtract from the experience. The cartridge choice,however, will be detrimental, when it comes to mating with the kind of electronics you are talking about IMHO.

and that necessarily isn't about the hand shake between the TT's and the electronics. Each brings with it stuff like:
1. the SP10's that i have heard have solid attack (irrespective of the electronics) but in comparison to the Idlers and belt driven TT they dont have the kind of micro detailing. But they have unbeatable LF extension.
2. The idler driven turntables have great attack and micro detail, but somehow lack the openness and fluidity of the belt driven TT's...
3. Good beltdriven TT's don't disappoint on all counts... for example, when I need more attack, I simply bring out all 3 belts on the Ambient. That increases the torque!

In short, look at a TT that will allow you to tweak a bit here and there. It becomes great fun then.

 

[jls001]

Hi Issigonis

When buying things like a car or a watch, status symbol comes in. Its a different ball game all together. Fortunately for us, in audio, status symbol has not kicked in.

And I thought there is something called audiophile aristocracy?:lol:

But seriously, since the 124 is also a consideration for you, why not something with a slate plinth? I have not heard one with slate plinth but I seriously want to do a DIY on my 124. I have been trying to locate slate suppliers and have found some leads locally. The next challenge would be to get someone who can CNC it, or waterjet it.

Please check out these two interesting links below:

These folks have two variants, and they have been reviewed vary favourably:
Slatedeck - The Slayer of Myths Review By Clive Meakins

And here's another one:
Oswaldsmillaudio - Plinth

Neither are cheap but the sonic benefits seems to be tremendous.
Joshua

 

[issigonis]

And I thought there is something called audiophile aristocracy?:lol:

But seriously, since the 124 is also a consideration for you, why not something with a slate plinth? I have not heard one with slate plinth but I seriously want to do a DIY on my 124. I have been trying to locate slate suppliers and have found some leads locally. The next challenge would be to get someone who can CNC it, or waterjet it.

Please check out these two interesting links below:

These folks have two variants, and they have been reviewed vary favourably:
Slatedeck - The Slayer of Myths Review By Clive Meakins

And here's another one:
Oswaldsmillaudio - Plinth

Neither are cheap but the sonic benefits seems to be tremendous.
Joshua

>>>

Joshua,

The Scheu 'Das Laufwerk No. 2' has an option of a shale base. You may like to contact Mr. Semler at The Listening Room, Bangalore for details.

Regards

 

[Hiten]

Manav, what you said in post #21 makes perfect sense. but since perm has already zeroed in on few tables luckily he would like the tables at first go itself or as I was saying he can tweak/upgrade phonostage/cartridges etc. to the sound he likes. Also I would suggest try different pre '80s hindi vinyls as even two vinyls of same film/compilation doesn't sound same on my setup.

 

[Hiten]

when I need more attack, I simply bring out all 3 belts on the Ambient. That increases the torque!

you have thought of everything :thumbsup:

 

[malvai]

you have thought of everything :thumbsup:

One has to brother.... otherwise one will keep upgrading... frankly it gets tiresome.... now i just wanna sit back and enjoy the music! and thankfully have been doing so for the past few months!

 

[issigonis]

I agree with you 100%. But there are superb mid-level decks that come out trumps! Ambient is one of them. The Gyrodeck is another. The SME 10 is a superb sounding deck too and could be in your budget (ie of the Indian dealership hasn't put in a humongous markup.)

>>>
Manav,

The possibility of going overseas to audition and to shortlist and to finally select grows! A mid-level to high level system should be a fire and forget play, methinks.

Regards