Shuffling the Deck!

[Miany]

On a recent trip to Bangalore, I managed to take the AP separates back to Siva for a quick health check.
Unfortunately due to high demand AP will only be able to take a look at them next week after which I will get them back.

On the way back, I picked up a JL Audio E-Sub e110 from a friend. I had been planning to add a sub to complement the SCM20s and the JL Audio subs came highly recommended along with the RELs. After hauling the amazingly well designed double boxed E-Sub all the way back to HYD, I had to wait until I got a cable made - the JL Audio subs use a Phoenix connector to connect the high level signal. I had some Western Electric cable spare which I got terminated with some humble MX banana plugs. I plan to use Vampire Wire connectors later.

View attachment 73217


Installing the sub was a breeze after getting it out of the box. JL Audio has done a fabulous job with the box design with clear instructions on how to unpack the sub woofer. Installing the above cable at the speaker terminals on my Job INT was pretty simple. The Phoenix connector clicked into place without issues. I had a small problem with the power cord length - the cord not being long enough to allow me to place the sub a little further away from the left speaker as I would like to.

View attachment 73218 View attachment 73219

I have placed the sub on an IKEA bamboo cutting board and it fits the sub perfectly. The board is the LÄMPLIG model (Article no: 203.098.28) and can be ordered online. I got mine within a few days of ordering earlier. I plan to get it varnished to match the rest of my audio rack eventually.

Setup and Listening Impressions:

Basic connections aside I was dreading integrating the sub with my SCM20s. I started off with the setting the crossover at 80Hz, phase angle at 45 degrees and Master Volume at 0. The sub kicked in with a stomach churning drone almost immediately. They are fast and can get loud in an instant. Long story short, I ended up reducing the Master Volume a fair bit and adjusted the crossover point to 55 Hz - 60 Hz. I don't know if I am just plain lucky but I was done in about 15 mins. My preference being to use the sub to just feather the low end just a touch.

Initial listening impressions after getting the settings dialed in was just ... wow! I had great sound before (in my opinion) but this was even better. So much for all the hesitation I had about adding a sub to my setup. The low end / bass is all there where needed but it has also elevated the mids and highs. Clearly the LF has some information that complements the mids and highs giving them "more completeness". Bass has more "weight" and definition. I have been listening to my setup all day today. Have played a variety of different genres but have been enjoying some classic rock and soul the most. These genres were always a little harder to get right earlier. The added weight and definition has clearly elevated music that was less involving before.

Will keep on listening and post my impressions as everything settles in. But initial listening impressions are really good. All fears I had of dislocated bloated bass has been eliminated within minutes. But it's early days and will see how things pan out after putting in more hours of listening.



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Great job in getting the sub integrated beautifully. I believe its a SINGLE sub now, right? Any plans of going for a stereo pair? How did you arrive upon sub's position in the room? I too have been thinking about getting subs... not that i am not happy with the present sound... but really curious as to what they bring to the overall sound....

 

[sidvee]

On a recent trip to Bangalore, I managed to take the AP separates back to Siva for a quick health check.
Unfortunately due to high demand AP will only be able to take a look at them next week after which I will get them back.

On the way back, I picked up a JL Audio E-Sub e110 from a friend. I had been planning to add a sub to complement the SCM20s and the JL Audio subs came highly recommended along with the RELs. After hauling the amazingly well designed double boxed E-Sub all the way back to HYD, I had to wait until I got a cable made - the JL Audio subs use a Phoenix connector to connect the high level signal. I had some Western Electric cable spare which I got terminated with some humble MX banana plugs. I plan to use Vampire Wire connectors later.

View attachment 73217


Installing the sub was a breeze after getting it out of the box. JL Audio has done a fabulous job with the box design with clear instructions on how to unpack the sub woofer. Installing the above cable at the speaker terminals on my Job INT was pretty simple. The Phoenix connector clicked into place without issues. I had a small problem with the power cord length - the cord not being long enough to allow me to place the sub a little further away from the left speaker as I would like to.

View attachment 73218 View attachment 73219

I have placed the sub on an IKEA bamboo cutting board and it fits the sub perfectly. The board is the LÄMPLIG model (Article no: 203.098.28) and can be ordered online. I got mine within a few days of ordering earlier. I plan to get it varnished to match the rest of my audio rack eventually.

Setup and Listening Impressions:

Basic connections aside I was dreading integrating the sub with my SCM20s. I started off with the setting the crossover at 80Hz, phase angle at 45 degrees and Master Volume at 0. The sub kicked in with a stomach churning drone almost immediately. They are fast and can get loud in an instant. Long story short, I ended up reducing the Master Volume a fair bit and adjusted the crossover point to 55 Hz - 60 Hz. I don't know if I am just plain lucky but I was done in about 15 mins. My preference being to use the sub to just feather the low end just a touch.

Initial listening impressions after getting the settings dialed in was just ... wow! I had great sound before (in my opinion) but this was even better. So much for all the hesitation I had about adding a sub to my setup. The low end / bass is all there where needed but it has also elevated the mids and highs. Clearly the LF has some information that complements the mids and highs giving them "more completeness". Bass has more "weight" and definition. I have been listening to my setup all day today. Have played a variety of different genres but have been enjoying some classic rock and soul the most. These genres were always a little harder to get right earlier. The added weight and definition has clearly elevated music that was less involving before.

Will keep on listening and post my impressions as everything settles in. But initial listening impressions are really good. All fears I had of dislocated bloated bass has been eliminated within minutes. But it's early days and will see how things pan out after putting in more hours of listening.



.

Sub looks excellent Nikhil, and I am sure sounds excellent as well. JL audio clearly states in their manual (against all audio-phoolery, golden ear timing etc. type of advice):
"high Level Inputs
This feature is included for convenience when needing to connect the E-Sub
to a receiver or integrated amplifier that only offers speaker level outputs. It is not
the preferred method when a line-level signal is available."
In fact they are one of the few high end sub woofer manufacturer that recommend this type of connection only and is found in many higher end set-ups. I have heard these subs integrated to Wilson Audio speakers, with line level inputs and they sounded simply superb.
Do consider line level inputs, down the road, if you can.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[arj]

Initial listening impressions after getting the settings dialed in was just ... wow! I had great sound before (in my opinion) but this was even better. So much for all the hesitation I had about adding a sub to my setup. The low end / bass is all there where needed but it has also elevated the mids and highs. Clearly the LF has some information that complements the mids and highs giving them "more completeness". Bass has more "weight" and definition. I have been listening to my setup all day today. Have played a variety of different genres but have been enjoying some classic rock and soul the most. These genres were always a little harder to get right earlier. The added weight and definition has clearly elevated music that was less involving before.

Will keep on listening and post my impressions as everything settles in. But initial listening impressions are really good. All fears I had of dislocated bloated bass has been eliminated within minutes. But it's early days and will see how things pan out after putting in more hours of listening.

This is when you know it is integrated . Great job and congratulations Nikhil !

 

[Nikhil]

"high Level Inputs
This feature is included for convenience when needing to connect the E-Sub
to a receiver or integrated amplifier that only offers speaker level outputs. It is not
the preferred method when a line-level signal is available."
In fact they are one of the few high end sub woofer manufacturer that recommend this type of connection only and is found in many higher end set-ups. I have heard these subs integrated to Wilson Audio speakers, with line level inputs and they sounded simply superb.
Do consider line level inputs, down the road, if you can.

Sid, I have requested Siva to add a pre-out to my preamp for this.
I will have to wait and see when I get the preamp back from AP to try out Line Level.

But for my Job INT, I have to use high level input only. So far it is working really well.


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[sidvee]

Sid, I have requested Siva to add a pre-out to my preamp for this.
I will have to wait and see when I get the preamp back from AP to try out Line Level.

But for my Job INT, I have to use high level input only. So far it is working really well.
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I am sure both methods will work well Nikhil, one probably will not be able to tell the difference even. I was merely pointing to the recommended method by JL audio themselves, because in the past, many stated that the speaker level was the best way to connect a sub, and if not - one did not know what they were doing and had lead ears.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[arj]

I am sure both methods will work well Nikhil, one probably will not be able to tell the difference even. I was merely pointing to the recommended method by JL audio themselves, because in the past, many stated that the speaker level was the best way to connect a sub, and if not - one did not know what they were doing and had lead ears.
Cheers,
Sid

I believe REL has been a proponent of that ( ie High level connection) and their theory was that the input would keep the same signature as the amp. Vandersteen subs used to give a special RCA with a special LF low pass which would in some way match the speakers as well...

I guess its very design specific although due to some reason I have been more partial to the High level output in subs.

 

[Nikhil]

I think that depends on the crossover implementation from whatever I have seen. High level connections require a specific crossover design to filter out the nasties in the high level connections. REL seems to be the specialist in this area who actually recommend using the high level connection as default. The E-Sub series of JL Audio has the crossover design to handle this as well from what I am seeing right now. It should be interesting to see what a REL would sound like in my setup.

Interestingly, I found that subs can be broadly classified under either the SPL (loudness) and SQL (sound quality) categories. JL Audio is an SPL brand in general with sub design that is designed to dominate a room if needed. REL and Rhythmik seem to be on the SQL side. Would like to see what they are capable of at some point in my setup. KEF is supposedly somewhere in the middle.



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[arj]

JL Audio is an SPL brand in general with sub design that is designed to dominate a room if needed. REL and Rhythmik seem to be on the SQL side. Would like to see what they are capable of at some point in my setup. KEF is supposedly somewhere in the middle.

Just try an activity Nikhil, Make the sub as full range as possible and turn off the main speaker connections and see how vocals sound, the more articulate the sound the better it is for SQL. Considering its a sub driver, the vocals will not be clear . Since you reported that the midrange has improved with this, i would not worry too much in SQL..

 

[Nikhil]

This is when you know it is integrated . Great job and congratulations Nikhil !

Thanks Arj! It is uncanny how the rest of the sound has changed with the addition of the sub. The sub seems to be providing a foundation over which the mids and highs play. I use piano music to voice my system primarily (Billy Woodman designed his drivers around piano music) and I find that if you get the piano to play right the rest of spectrum falls into place.


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[Nikhil]

Just try an activity Nikhil, Make the sub as full range as possible and turn off the main speaker connections and see how vocals sound, the more articulate the sound the better it is for SQL. Considering its a sub driver, the vocals will not be clear . Since you reported that the midrange has improved with this, i would not worry too much in SQL..

The problem is that I have my mains connected with bare wire.
Disconnecting them is a PIA at the moment but will keep this in mind.





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[sidvee]

Interestingly, I found that subs can be broadly classified under either the SPL (loudness) and SQL (sound quality) categories. JL Audio is an SPL brand in general with sub design that is designed to dominate a room if needed. REL and Rhythmik seem to be on the SQL side. Would like to see what they are capable of at some point in my setup. KEF is supposedly somewhere in the middle.

IME, what I found that the type of cabinet (ported or sealed) and type of control exerted on the driver (servo feedback etc) has a bigger bearing on the sound quality, all other things being equal. Of-course there are examples of subs without these that sound great as well, but specifically for pure music reproduction, I try to stick to these features.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[manek]

The problem is that I have my mains connected with bare wire.
Disconnecting them is a PIA at the moment but will keep this in mind.

View attachment 73225



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Using the sub like you did to just gently re-enforce the low end is how I would use it too if at all I ventured down that road.

Good going.

 

[manek]

Thanks Arj! It is uncanny how the rest of the sound has changed with the addition of the sub. The sub seems to be providing a foundation over which the mids and highs play. I use piano music to voice my system primarily (Billy Woodman designed his drivers around piano music) and I find that if you get the piano to play right the rest of spectrum falls into place.


.

Help me know your amp to speaker connections…. Are you playing your mains via the sub ? By high level signal do you mean signal from amp speaker terminals are fed into the sub-crossover and then fed to the mains ?

There was a video on youtube by gr-research on how one can improve the lower mids and above of the audio spectrum by using inline first order line level filters before the amp so bookshelves are rolled off faster and sometimes before the speaker crossover rolloff comes into play so that you minimise mid-woofer excursion and that kind of effect is probably cleaning up your sound more than anything else…..

 

[arj]

Thanks Arj! It is uncanny how the rest of the sound has changed with the addition of the sub. The sub seems to be providing a foundation over which the mids and highs play. I use piano music to voice my system primarily (Billy Woodman designed his drivers around piano music) and I find that if you get the piano to play right the rest of spectrum falls into place.


.

Yes, , the way i understood from Rel, in an ideal scenario what you want to do is augment the rolloff of the speakers bass with the sub . REL recommended choosing around the 10db point of the speaker and keeping the cutoff there. if both the speakers and subs slope matches , The speaker gets supported from its 3dB point and the sub takes over from around the 10dB.

Conceptually that made sense ! and when i did use dual RELS it worked quite decently.

 

[Nikhil]

Yes, , the way i understood from Rel, in an ideal scenario what you want to do is augment the rolloff of the speakers bass with the sub . REL recommended choosing around the 10db point of the speaker and keeping the cutoff there. if both the speakers and subs slope matches , The speaker gets supported from its 3dB point and the sub takes over from around the 10dB.

Conceptually that made sense ! and when i did use dual RELS it worked quite decently.

You may be onto something there ... my crossover setting is around 55Hz which is at the -6dB point.
I can hear the sub drone when I take it any higher. Same for the Master Volume.





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[Nikhil]

Help me know your amp to speaker connections…. Are you playing your mains via the sub ? By high level signal do you mean signal from amp speaker terminals are fed into the sub-crossover and then fed to the mains ?

No. The sub is connected to the main speaker connectors at the amp.
The main speakers are connected bare wire to the amp.
The sub is connected via banana connectors on the same terminals at the amp.








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[manek]

No. The sub is connected to the main speaker connectors at the amp.
The main speakers are connected bare wire to the amp.
The sub is connected via banana connectors on the same terminals at the amp.

View attachment 73227



View attachment 73228


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Oh

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

The problem is that I have my mains connected with bare wire.
Disconnecting them is a PIA at the moment but will keep this in mind.

View attachment 73225



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Is that the Belden 8477, @Nikhil?

 

[Nikhil]

Is that the Belden 8477, @Nikhil?

Yes. Have been very happy using Belden 8477 as speaker cable.



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[sachinchavan 15865]

Yes. Have been very happy using Belden 8477 as speaker cable.



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I too have been positively surprised by my recent experimentation with it. Body and sweetness especially. Possibly one of the best value to price ratios. Glad to note that it’s serving well even the better pedigreed speakers like ATCs.