Soundstage Height Issue

[Shinto]

put a pic of your system and listening position

 

[mpw]

have you tried with subwoofer off ?

try a thick rug on the TV - carefully...

are the speaker stand spikes located on a carpet ? if so are they making contact with the floor ?

can you move your speakers to 1/5 of the room length from the front wall ?

can you try 1/3 rd ? - this will be a stretch for most.

its a weekend - try it.

am just running thru a conventional check list.

 

[Shinto]

have you tried with subwoofer off ?

My setup was always like this not enough height.i have tried the subwoofer on an off yes.

 

[mpw]

My setup was always like this not enough height.i have tried the subwoofer on an off yes.

have you tried other points i mentioned in the past ?

if nothing works - do you have a local acoustics person who can come and help ?

they might charge you something for this...

 

[jls001]

...so can I assume all of you have a soundstage above the speakers,what height above the speakers are we looking at.

The bulk of the audio signal that can be identified to be directional or coming from a specific height emanates from the tweeters. So for example a predominantly vocal track should have the voice coming from roughly tweeter height.

I was meaning to ask @jls001 is +/- 1 mm of adjustments are really worth it ?

Yes, if there is channel imbalance.

 

[sound_cycle]

Hi

I've been posting over the years about various experiments with speaker positioning. (all here in hfv the gist of this is the audiobeat method (which I find very easy to use) with the LEDR track, understanding the early reflection sources (acoustic string/ REW to help) and treating them (and throwing all the unnecessary stuff away they just suck shimmer away).

The LEDR over track would arc but more like a saggy mattress rather than one of these Corona virus flatten the curve graphs that every one is showing.

That improved with the addition of a sub - a single REL t/9i running ghetto XLR. Tuneful bass does a lot to give you the spatial cues you need.

So how do you get the tuneful bass ? My approach was DRC. I was still not happy. Dirac v2 has me jumping for joy.

Tuneful bass, sustain, shimmer and rather nice imaging. All to my liking. Bare floor, bare ceiling, . Dirac does its magic for time and phase and level matching speakers.. These are super critical if you are chasing image.

I know that if i get a QRD in place of a bigass 4k planar reflection source I will get more reason to jump. The question to ask is what is behind your speakers where the phantom spot is. Remember your room is not acoustically symmetric, laser distance measure, grid on floor and balance image.

Waiting for a post corona world to have a whisky sipping listening session with @drkrack , @newlash09 and others.

You asked above if mm matters - yes they do. after i worked out with @HariIyer's help i was moving my speakers in very small increments, I postiion the Umik first measurement to the best accuracy / precision i can manage - +/- 2 mm i'd say. But wait does that mean i have to have my head in a vise, no thanks to Dirac Live.

ciao
gr

 

[firearm12]

Try to back tilt speakers a little. It would help in projecting sound upwards leading to big sound stage. Listen to your favorite songs and not test tones. Also try to isolate the amp using some isolation footers (or try anything at home like wooden blocks, coins etc). I have experienced it can also elevate the sound in room.

 

[Deleted member 15865]

I was meaning to ask @jls001 is +/- 1 mm of adjustments are really worth it ?

i cannot sit and listen to music for a long time so that means i would not be able to move my head by +/-1 mm ( if i sit ) ???

The placement precision improves the imaging and clarity. Thereafter it doesn’t matter if you move your head (or bum for that matter) by 1 mm or even 1 m. It will at the most shift that precise and clear image to that side, without blurring it.

Hi mpw,my amp and speakers as in signature integrated amp Yamaha as1000 and harbeth 30.1.dac is audiogd nfb 5.

Did these speakers ever give you that high (1-2m above tweeter) sound height earlier? Does every test has to work equally for every speaker? Do others with these/similar (thin walled resonating cabinet) speakers get such soaring highs? And not with some signal processing, but au naturel.

 

[Shinto]

Try to back tilt speakers a little. It would help in projecting sound upwards leading to big sound stage. Listen to your favorite songs and not test tones. Also try to isolate the amp using some isolation footers (or try anything at home like wooden blocks, coins etc). I have experienced it can also elevate the sound in room.

Hi Firearm,I have tilted it back via adjusting front spikes.At the moment around 4 mm.is that enough tilt.?The amplifier has good feets.would you still recommend additional isolation?

The bulk of the audio signal that can be identified to be directional or coming from a specific height emanates from the tweeters. So for example a predominantly vocal track should have the voice coming from roughly tweeter height.

I am getting the vocals around tweeter height when I sit closer to the speakers say 2.5m instead of normal 3.4 m position.i think I should move my listen ing position forward even though practically it is not easy.may be I should get a temporary chair.

have you tried other points i mentioned in the past ?

Hi mpw,I have tried the rug in the past.I may try 1/5 position which is 1m.this is practically not an option anyway.

 

[firearm12]

Hi Firearm,I have tilted it back via adjusting front spikes.At the moment around 4 mm.is that enough tilt.?The amplifier has good feets.would you still recommend additional isolation?

Start with max tilt and then experiment by listening and then tilting less and less again and then listening. This way you will know what is the effect of max tilt also. Yes definetely try something below the inbuilt feet. No harm in trying. Also i feel speakers will benefit from being pulled out from back wall more.

 

[Shinto]

Hi

I've been posting over the years about various experiments with speaker positioning. (all here in hfv the gist of this is the audiobeat method (which I find very easy to use) with the LEDR track, understanding the early reflection sources (acoustic string/ REW to help) and treating them (and throwing all the unnecessary stuff away they just suck shimmer away).

The LEDR over track would arc but more like a saggy mattress rather than one of these Corona virus flatten the curve graphs that every one is showing.

That improved with the addition of a sub - a single REL t/9i running ghetto XLR. Tuneful bass does a lot to give you the spatial cues you need.

So how do you get the tuneful bass ? My approach was DRC. I was still not happy. Dirac v2 has me jumping for joy.

Tuneful bass, sustain, shimmer and rather nice imaging. All to my liking. Bare floor, bare ceiling, . Dirac does its magic for time and phase and level matching speakers.. These are super critical if you are chasing image.

I know that if i get a QRD in place of a bigass 4k planar reflection source I will get more reason to jump. The question to ask is what is behind your speakers where the phantom spot is. Remember your room is not acoustically symmetric, laser distance measure, grid on floor and balance image.

Waiting for a post corona world to have a whisky sipping listening session with @drkrack , @newlash09 and others.

You asked above if mm matters - yes they do. after i worked out with @HariIyer's help i was moving my speakers in very small increments, I postiion the Umik first measurement to the best accuracy / precision i can manage - +/- 2 mm i'd say. But wait does that mean i have to have my head in a vise, no thanks to Dirac Live.

ciao
gr

Hi I tried the LEDR today after drkrack suggested it .the left up and right up does not pass instead of the sound going up,it goes behind and towards the centre.and over track ,I am not sure if it is an arc or a straight line I am hearing.

 

[mpw]

Hi mpw,I have tried the rug in the past.I may try 1/5 position which is 1m.this is practically not an option anyway.

try it and see if something changes in the presentation...

central point is either

move your speakers
or use software like illustrated in an earlier post
or shift your listening position

in order for something to happen - weather positive of negative - either or all the above is necessary - at this time

Try to back tilt speakers a little. It would help in projecting sound upwards leading to big sound stage. Listen to your favorite songs and not test tones. Also try to isolate the amp using some isolation footers (or try anything at home like wooden blocks, coins etc). I have experienced it can also elevate the sound in room.

the test tones are a poor idea ( for me ) i have a few CD's but i havent ever played them - atleast i am not so much an imaging and soundstage person.

play your favorite music and that should sound good to you and thats it i suppose.

 

[sound_cycle]

Hi I tried the LEDR today after drkrack suggested it .the left up and right up does not pass instead of the sound going up,it goes behind and towards the centre.and over track ,I am not sure if it is an arc or a straight line I am hearing.

I saw the pic you had posted upthread.

My first observation, gosh ! The sub is not optimally placed. But that is for later, it does not concern us for the moment. Keep it off, for now. Usse baad me nipatenge. Second I don't see any obvious problems (the TV is but that we have to live with, I have one too that I love for video and hate at the same time Third what is behind the l/p are you in front of a wall or something. How far is the wall on the rhs from your l/p ? I had an arrangement against the wall that just would not work for me.

It is easiest to start with a triangle that puts your listening position (l/p) about 1.25 x 1.5 times from the distance between the speakers. (I'd recommend looking at the audio beat method again, the tracks they use are on apple music or tidal. you should be set for a good bass response too.)

Could you play white noise in mono. you should hear a waterfall that is at the centre. To close (wrt your l/p) it will be smeared, too far you will hear two sources. This is in not to imply you have it wrong, I'm just trying to go step wise.

Once that is properly in place get the toe in right with the ledr over track after that.

edit: lovely looking room, and I don't see why it should not be a lovely sounding one too.


ciao
gr

 

[Shinto]

I saw the pic you had posted upthread.

My first observation, gosh ! The sub is not optimally placed. But that is for later, it does not concern us for the moment. Keep it off, for now. Usse baad me nipatenge. Second I don't see any obvious problems (the TV is but that we have to live with, I have one too that I love for video and hate at the same time Third what is behind the l/p are you in front of a wall or something. How far is the wall on the rhs from your l/p ? I had an arrangement against the wall that just would not work for me.

It is easiest to start with a triangle that puts your listening position (l/p) about 1.25 x 1.5 times from the distance between the speakers. (I'd recommend looking at the audio beat method again, the tracks they use are on apple music or tidal. you should be set for a good bass response too.)

Could you play white noise in mono. you should hear a waterfall that is at the centre. To close (wrt your l/p) it will be smeared, too far you will hear two sources. This is in not to imply you have it wrong, I'm just trying to go step wise.

Once that is properly in place get the toe in right with the ledr over track after that.

edit: lovely looking room, and I don't see why it should not be a lovely sounding one too.


ciao
gr

Hi ,The sub is placed after a lot of trial and error.and I have had this sub only recently.had the soundstage issue without sub too.the current sub /speakers position gives me the best result.the soundstage height is the only issue I have . otherwise very good sound.real , natural sound with sub blending in seamlessly.not boomy.sub is placed in corner as per REL .I have tried a temporary listening position say 1.25 times speaker width and the centre image is better.sound is more coherent , enveloping etc but height is not improved.however this listening position is not so practical with my current lounges.anyway I am leaving it as it is for now and try to rearrange the room.will let you all know how this evolves.thanking you for the detailed writeup.

The placement precision improves the imaging and clarity. Thereafter it doesn’t matter if you move your head (or bum for that matter) by 1 mm or even 1 m. It will at the most shift that precise and clear image to that side, without blurring it.



Did these speakers ever give you that high (1-2m above tweeter) sound height earlier? Does every test has to work equally for every speaker? Do others with these/similar (thin walled resonating cabinet) speakers get such soaring highs? And not with some signal processing, but au naturel.

This is my doubt too.eith these type of BBC speakers,I am thinking now as it may be normal to have soundstage height to only just near the speaker top and may be I think sometimes just above it.please correct me otherwise.

 

[tuff]

If you are up for it, move the table under the amplifier, remove the TV and check. If you see any difference in it, you know what to do

 

[mpw]

If you are up for it, move the table under the amplifier, remove the TV and check. If you see any difference in it, you know what to do

@Shinto

It will be interesting for us to see what happens when you roll up your sleeves..

@tuff echoes the same thing

Things have to move..to assess the outcomes and then decide final positioning.

In audioland...furniture and seating can be subservient to the requirements of stereo listening depending on how deeply you care.

Final positioning can be a compromise or a surprise..

Regards

 

[sound_cycle]

Did these speakers ever give you that high (1-2m above tweeter) sound height earlier? Does every test has to work equally for every speaker? Do others with these/similar (thin walled resonating cabinet) speakers get such soaring highs? And not with some signal processing, but au naturel.

"but au naturel" I suppose you mean that without having to do something drastic like listening without dressing ... lj/k you mean (room) treatment. No not possible. We have small imperfect rooms. Low frequency will sound like the whooshing of a beer bottle while HF clacks around like a billiards ball. The transition point is the Schroder frequency (you will find both better explanations and calculators). No matter what jhad phoon or black magic this his how rooms behave. And au natural will give you colored/ synthetic sound where you are listening to the room and not to your speakers. Below this transition frequency your room and not your speakers are in charge of what you are hearing. PERIOD. So not happening. Ears adapt to rooms that sound like dhinchak auto one note bass and we get to be okay with it and give it nice names punchy, visceral etc.. The modes are easily demonstrable Measureable with REW or simply by walking around the room and hearing how the bass distribution varies hugely with ear heigh and in xy. I know that this is pespi/coke religious dogma stuff so will stop here with a "melody khao khud jaan jaao"


ciao
gr
the apple will fall to the ground, naturally

 

[keith_correa]

1. Move your speakers a foot ahead from where they are currently. From the pic I’m guessing they are about 16” to 18” away from rear wall, correct?
2. It seems that you are listening too much off axis. Try toeing the speakers in so that they are not more than 15 deg off axis.
3. If the above mentioned activities don’t do it for you, swap the left and right speakers.

Let us know what the outcome is.

 

[drkrack]

You need to pull the speakers into the Room first, at least 3 ft from back walls, remove the two side recliners and check LEDR again.
Removing the TV enhanced the imaging by significant amount in my setup. Try covering the TV with a thick Towel / Comforter for the time being, if you are not inclined to move the TV.

Hi drkrack,I tried the LEDR today and the height check fails

Fails meaning it doesn't even move few feet above the speakers? One Channel usually lags behind the other depending on Room imperfections. Are both channels uniformly deficient in displaying the movement of sound? Quite unlikely. I understand that The response is not quite uniform with different setups ( for example, Maggies do a great job with soundstage in my setup; but focals 926 don't reach that level but the sound does move appreciably and focals have better meaty tonality) but the sound does move and arc ( different levels of response is OK, but appreciable movement will be there) as explained on the website. There are lots of variables here so try doing it without the side recliners and covering the TV and let's know.

Try toeing the speakers

Toeing in would collapse the Soundstage further as far as my experience goes, I use less than 5 deg toe in but it varies with different speakers, so no harm in trying.

No matter what jhad phoon or black magic this his how rooms behave. And au natural will give you colored/ synthetic sound where you are listening to the room and not to your speakers.

Yes, very well put. Most of us have imperfect listening rooms.
So for @Shinto, Next option will be running measurements using Umik and checking for the deficiencies.

I'd First Try Removing the Side Recliners, followed by TV and check whether that improves the sound stage, I had a mammoth treadmill in the listening room which killed the most of imaging. Another unpopular question is about Cables, what interconnect and power cables you are using currently?

 

[Shinto]

You need to pull the speakers into the Room first, at least 3 ft from back walls, remove the two side recliners and check LEDR again.
Removing the TV enhanced the imaging by significant amount in my setup. Try covering the TV with a thick Towel / Comforter for the time being, if you are not inclined to move the TV.

Fails meaning it doesn't even move few feet above the speakers? One Channel usually lags behind the other depending on Room imperfections. Are both channels uniformly deficient in displaying the movement of sound? Quite unlikely. I understand that The response is not quite uniform with different setups ( for example, Maggies do a great job with soundstage in my setup; but focals 926 don't reach that level but the sound does move appreciably and focals have better meaty tonality) but the sound does move and arc ( different levels of response is OK, but appreciable movement will be there) as explained on the website. There are lots of variables here so try doing it without the side recliners and covering the TV and let's know.


Toeing in would collapse the Soundstage further as far as my experience goes, I use less than 5 deg toe in but it varies with different speakers, so no harm in trying.


Yes, very well put. Most of us have imperfect listening rooms.
So for @Shinto, Next option will be running measurements using Umik and checking for the deficiencies.

I'd First Try Removing the Side Recliners, followed by TV and check whether that improves the sound stage, I had a mammoth treadmill in the listening room which killed the most of imaging. Another unpopular question is about Cables, what interconnect and power cables you are using currently?

Hi drkrack,the speaker s are out by 85 cm from front wall to front baffle,I will try moving the recliners temporarily for the checks.i have tried thick towel on tv before which did improved the imaging slightly not much.will try again.as it is a living room ,I have limited options for a permanent change . cable s are normal USB printer cable from macmini to dac , mogami diy interconnect to amp, normal copper 12 gauge cables to speakers.all power cord s are stock.

1. Move your speakers a foot ahead from where they are currently. From the pic I’m guessing they are about 16” to 18” away from rear wall, correct?
2. It seems that you are listening too much off axis. Try toeing the speakers in so that they are not more than 15 deg off axis.
3. If the above mentioned activities don’t do it for you, swap the left and right speakers.

Let us know what the outcome is.

Hi Keith,the speakers are 33" from front wall to front baffle.i have may be 5 degrees toe in now .have tried more toe in in the past .the centre focus improves , soundstage width reduces as you would expect and as it is a monitor,the high frequencies get a little hot which is not what I like.i might try swapping ,thanks for the suggestions.

If you are up for it, move the table under the amplifier, remove the TV and check. If you see any difference in it, you know what to do

Not easy.but I will have to do this at some stage.

@Shinto

It will be interesting for us to see what happens when you roll up your sleeves..

@tuff echoes the same thing

Things have to move..to assess the outcomes and then decide final positioning.

In audioland...furniture and seating can be subservient to the requirements of stereo listening depending on how deeply you care.

Final positioning can be a compromise or a surprise..

Regards

I will let you know the outcome.the thing is I am happy with the sound except for the height.

Hi Guys, Please understand that I am happy with the sound except for the height.so a part of me do not want to change things from what it is.so my idea with this post was actually to see if it is normal to have a soundstage height at speaker height.What I wanted to know exactly is what sort of height s are you guys getting from your setups.i just wanted to know that my expectations are normal.2.4 m is the ceiling height of my room.my sound stage is say @ 1.3 m from floor.so expecting a 2 m high soundstage may not be realistic I assume .As I mentioned in earlier posts ,when I move closer to speakers I get my sound stage at around the top of speakers even though it is much lower at my current seating position which is around 3.3 m.so I guess I will have find a way to sit closer to the speakers permanently.there are practical issues with windows ,doors and furniture etc which I need to sort out.i will keep you all updated.

"Meanwhile if you guys could roughly tell me the approximate soundstage height of your setup and ceiling height of your room,it will help me assess my situation accordingly".