Soundstage in pure direct not so good

[Love4sound]

Dear Fm’s

During my entire HT journey I have never given interest to stereo but after purchasing 4500 it really got me addicted especially in pure direct mode.But recently it sounds very bad mainly due to the reason the bass is so muddy and flat. There is no thump or punch at all in the z3. I would like your opinions on what can be the issue. There are 3 possibilities and that the problem is with avr or the speakers.The 3rd possibility is which I highly doubt is the reason and it’s after I installed 65 inch c9. As you can see in the image below when I had a 43 inch tv the speakers were not so wide apart and also had enough room around them. For installing the c9 I had to move both the LR 2-3 inches apart. Now they are slightly wider but as you can see there is no breathing space in the sides as they are almost kissing the c9. Your thoughts on the subject please

 

[superczar]

Nothing wrong with the AVR
There are a couple of tracks I had suggested you should try to check for the soundstage. If the imaging is fine then the system sounds as expected in direct mode

Now your room acoustics and speaker placement is less than perfect - When you engage Stereo mode , XT32 runs its magic to apply a fair degree of corrections + routes the lower frequencies to your (rather nice) sub - Naturally that will sound better than direct mode

 

[Love4sound]

Nothing wrong with the AVR
There are a couple of tracks I had suggested you should try to check for the soundstage. If the imaging is fine then the system sounds as expected in direct mode

Now your room acoustics and speaker placement is less than perfect - When you engage Stereo mode , XT32 runs its magic to apply a fair degree of corrections + routes the lower frequencies to your (rather nice) sub - Naturally that will sound better than direct mode

I have my 2ch play back at auto so in pure direct mode the sub and audyssey is disabled. It was really good before this change. Sound image and bass was very good enjoyable. Not image is ok but the bass is to flat and muddy. There is no tightness and accuracy

 

[superczar]

I have my 2ch play back at auto so in pure direct mode the sub and audyssey is disabled. It was really good before this change. Sound image and bass was very good enjoyable. Not image is ok but the bass is to flat and muddy. There is no tightness and accuracy

Couple of things, Denon AVRs will remember the last used mode for a source
If you always left it at Pure direct for the given source, that's what it will use

However If you used to leave it at Auto, when the AVR detects a stereo signal , it will default to Audyssey On and use whatever settings you have enabled for Audyssey

Here is something you can try - Set Front LFE cutoff to 80 or 100
Set Audyssey curve to bypass L/R (so that the frequency response of your zensors is left unaltered above the cutoff)
This should give you the best of both worlds - An unaltered output for your Z3s and bass managed by your subs which will do a far superior job at sub 80hz than your Z3s

On a side note, don't worry about Pure direct, very few of us here have room, amps and speakers combinations which will be resolving enough (or ears that are good enough) to tell a difference between Direct and Pure direct

 

[elangoas]

Your thoughts on the subject please

I would say the same as what FM superczar said. Since you have limitation placing the speakers and subwoofer, best would be to use the AVR in stereo mode (Audyssey engaged). This should fairly help eliminate the boom issue.

 

[spirovious]

I would say the same as what FM superczar said. Since you have limitation placing the speakers and subwoofer, best would be to use the AVR in stereo mode (Audyssey engaged). This should fairly help eliminate the boom issue.

Even in direct mode, attack and pace of music can be marginally better.There may be LFE setting which can be kept "LFE + main" to work SW in direct mode.These settings work with marantz avrs.
Pure direct sound of Denon may be softer than marantz.

Subwoofer Modes

denon.custhelp.com

 

[superczar]

Even in direct mode, attack and pace of music can be marginally better.There may be LFE setting which can be kept "LFE + main" to work SW in direct mode.These settings work with marantz avrs.
Pure direct sound of Denon may be softer than marantz.

Subwoofer Modes

denon.custhelp.com

LFE+main is almost always best avoided as it creates an avoidable overlap between speaker and sub from around 40hz to cutoff (say 80hz) causing wave overlaps .
With L/R bypass, the sub does a clean job under cutoff while mains do a clean (and untouched i.e. direct) job with everything over the cutoff.

@Love4sound - As we were discussing on the other thread, If I were you, I'd have used the following for stereo:

Use the MultEQ app to
a) Check if the speaker distances are computed correctly and assessed as small - the distance shown from L and R should be absolutely equal - if diff, edit to make them more precise and equal
b) Examine the response curve for fronts to see the frequency where the room gain center is - (should be somewhere between 150-400) and drag the Audyssey Equalization curve to stop corrections over this point
c) Set the LFE cutoff to 80hz or so
d) Enable both DEQ and D Vol (light)

Then run a stereo track, flip between Direct, Audyssey on (reference curve) and Audyssey On (L/R bypass) - keep what you like but most will prefer the bold one
Then run the track at regular listening volumes (usually -30 to -20 db for me) and check the sound with D Vol On and off - Keep what you prefer - usually On

Once this is done, run a final test with the same track playing in Direct and Stereo mode. Keep what you like

 

[Love4sound]

I actually do not have any boominess. Bass is flat and muddy with no thump as before is my problem. I just wanted to know if the changes I mentioned can be a reason or not? I tried stereo with sub and don’t like it as compared to pure direct. I got so paranoid and got a 2500 just to cross check it issue is with avr lol

 

[elangoas]

Even in direct mode, attack and pace of music can be marginally better.There may be LFE setting which can be kept "LFE + main" to work SW in direct mode.These settings work with marantz avrs. Pure direct sound of Denon may be softer than marantz.

Subwoofer Modes

denon.custhelp.com

Ok. I think Denon & Marantz have same OSD & Menus. I have been using Stereo mode, "LFE" only under bass management and all speakers set to "Small". This sends all signal below crossover to subs and above to speakers.

I got so paranoid and got a 2500 just to cross check it issue is with avr lol

Hmm. 2500 can't solve what the 4500 can't .. Anyways, since you got the AVR, swap it and check.

 

[Love4sound]

Hmm. 2500 can't solve what the 4500 can't .. Anyways, since you got the AVR, swap it and check.

Hahaha the dealer was suggesting that I take the marantz 7010 but since m used to the Denon got the 2500.

 

[superczar]

I actually do not have any boominess. Bass is flat and muddy with no thump as before is my problem. I just wanted to know if the changes I mentioned can be a reason or not? I tried stereo with sub and don’t like it as compared to pure direct. I got so paranoid and got a 2500 just to cross check it issue is with avr lol

LOL - hope you plan to put it to good use elsewhere

 

[Love4sound]

LOL - hope you plan to put it to good use elsewhere

Not purchased will have to return it to dealer after checking

 

[elangoas]

Hahaha the dealer was suggesting that I take the marantz 7010 but since m used to the Denon got the 2500.

I want the Marantz 7010

 

[reachkalyan.kr]

Dear Fm’s

During my entire HT journey I have never given interest to stereo but after purchasing 4500 it really got me addicted especially in pure direct mode.But recently it sounds very bad mainly due to the reason the bass is so muddy and flat. There is no thump or punch at all in the z3. I would like your opinions on what can be the issue. There are 3 possibilities and that the problem is with avr or the speakers.The 3rd possibility is which I highly doubt is the reason and it’s after I installed 65 inch c9. As you can see in the image below when I had a 43 inch tv the speakers were not so wide apart and also had enough room around them. For installing the c9 I had to move both the LR 2-3 inches apart. Now they are slightly wider but as you can see there is no breathing space in the sides as they are almost kissing the c9. Your thoughts on the subject please

Hope Ur source remains the same and check if any firmware update changes your preferred settings in your AVR as well source.

 

[Love4sound]

I want the Marantz 7010

Hahah I know and also thought the same

Hope Ur source remains the same and check if any firmware update changes your preferred settings in your AVR as well source.

Yeah sure checking using the same source and settings

 

[Nagaraj S]

Hope Ur source remains the same and check if any firmware update changes your preferred settings in your AVR as well source.

This is also likely: A recent firmware update (I think) changed entirely the way my system sounded. Had to reset the AVR (Marantz SR6013) and run room calibration all over again. Hint: saving your Audyssey settings on a USB can come in handy after a factory reset.

 

[spirovious]

Regarding TV size.
As you said speakers are at wider distance than earlier,then yes Bass can become lean.
I remember, one FM too replaced a bigger size LED, and soundstage seamed to be smaller.
In that case try bringing F/L close to each other just to confirm.

 

[Love4sound]

Regarding TV size.
As you said speakers are at wider distance than earlier,then yes Bass can become lean.
I remember, one FM too replaced a bigger size LED, and soundstage seamed to be smaller.
In that case try bringing F/L close to each other just to confirm.

I can’t bring them any closer then this. Previously they had better breathing space as well if you see the first pic

 

[spirovious]

Then TV size can be damping something.Even its glass can reflect sound.You can cover TV with thick cloth and see if it improves sound or not.Just to find need to cover TV .Can test music with and without cover.

 

[Love4sound]

Then TV size can be damping something.Even its glass can reflect sound.You can cover TV with thick cloth and see if it improves sound or not.Just to find need to cover TV .Can test music with and without cover.

Ok sure will try that and update later