To preamp or not to preamp - that is the question..

[Credoh]

Hello FMs, this has been discussed in bits and pieces across HFV and other forums but the answers (like with many things hi-fi) are far from clear so here goes..

In my use case I stream digital audio over a strong fiber wifi. I'm very happy with my speaker+power amp combo and have taken a lot of care to ensure optimal placement, invest in acoustic treatment etc. My transport varies from RPI to Allo Digione and CCA.

Now the missing piece is the dac+preamp. In my quest for a simpler setup I'd like to add a dac that has a remote based volume control hence eliminating the need for a preamp. The internet seems divided on the best way to approach this. Without spending mega bucks I see there are a few typical options for this dac+pre route which are the stable fare from Topping, SMSL etc. However, there are multiple instances where users and some reviewers have raved about the "dac only" performance of these well measuring units but miffed at their performance as preamps usually talking about loss of dynamics etc.

Considering bit perfect digital volume control is well established and good digital volume control eliminates channel imbalance - why then this perceived drop in performance as a dac+preamp? What benefit does one get by adding a dedicated SS preamp (which usually adds a substantial cost and footprint to the setup) vs running in dac+pre mode?

 

[mbhangui]

Considering bit perfect digital volume control is well established and good digital volume control eliminates channel imbalance - why then this perceived drop in performance as a dac+preamp? What benefit does one get by adding a dedicated SS preamp (which usually adds a substantial cost and footprint to the setup) vs running in dac+pre mode?

Having the volume controlled dac+preamp is the better way to go IMHO. In general after the Digital to analog conversion has been done, the output will be fed to some solid state pre-amp to give enough voltage for the line out. If the pre-amp is on the same board/unit as the dac, the connections will be better, shorter and less noisier as compared to adding a separate preamp, adding interconnects between the dac and the preamp.

Now I have come across 3 types of dac

1. DACS which have no hardware volume control. The only way to control the volume is to use a software volume control which works by throwing away bits. The best sound will be when you keep the volume control at full
2. DACs which have a physical volume control knob. This will be better than the above dac. The only issue with these types of dacs is that you have to physically get up from your chair to control the volume (unless the DAC came with a physical remote control).
3. DACS which don't have a physical volume control knob, but have a hardware volume control. These dacs will work like 2. The expose a volume control that can be controlled by sending commands on the USB. Most players which have ALSA drivers look for this volume control and when you use the volume control slider in the software, it controls the hardware volume control. This IMHO is good because you can then control the volume remotely if the player has a android/IOS remote control app

 

[Credoh]

Thank you for the elegant explanation. Based on above getting something like a Topping E30 should be more than enough in such a use case? Are their any aspects to the quality of components within the dac unit (complete build) post d/a conversion that can measurably affect sq? Logically, why else would one need to spend significant money on a more exotic dac or another outboard SS preamp?

 

[mbhangui]

Thank you for the elegant explanation. Based on above getting something like a Topping E30 should be more than enough in such a use case? Are their any aspects to the quality of components within the dac unit (complete build) post d/a conversion that can measurably affect sq? Logically, why else would one need to spend significant money on a more exotic dac or another outboard SS preamp?

Yes, E30 has hardware volume control. See this

Topping E30 is using hardware volume control so the windows volume works even in exclusive and ASIO mode.

Strange feature of Topping DAC

Strange feature of Topping DAC

hydrogenaud.io

 

[amrutmhatre90]

Yes, E30 has hardware volume control

I have a E30 connected to my work laptop and I can confirm the volume control works in Windows when using exclusive / ASIO mode.

But on the down side when ever I change the sound it used to reset the volume to 50 from whatever the volume was on the previous song.

 

[Hari Iyer]

A single piece of wire has the ability and capability to degrade your audio IME, let alone an active device.

 

[vea]

I have used DACs directly to power amps/active speakers and was not missing anything. I was using a Lumin T2 with Leedh volume processing directly to my active speakers. It was sounding very crisp, detailed and real. Then I got a Supratek Cortese tube preamp. The sound became rounded, lost some detail, not true to scale and lost some extension at both extremes. But what the sound gained from the preamp is a multi layered soundstage. It was also much pleasant to listen to with a more analogue feel. I guess that is what most people seek in this hobby. I kept the preamp in the chain. Having said that I would still run volume control from a dac rather than using a cheap preamp.

 

[vkalia]

Unpopular opinion: unless you are sitting comparing the devices, the odds of hearing any meaningful difference in the *music* are minimal. At lower volume, you dont need as much resolution anyway. Furthermore, even if you sit and do a rigorous A/B test, you are well within the realm of error caused by imperfect level matching and/or placebo. Look at this way - rooms cause a difference of several dBs in frequency response. The difference, if any, caused by this is likely in the fractions of dB.

My ears cannot detect those sort of differences reliably. As long as the DAC/preamp is capable of putting a full 2Vrms out, I'd have no hesitation with using digital volume control.

YMMV, and if your ears tell you differently, that's all good, etc. etc.

 

[system123]

I have Emotiva DC1 Stealth which was directly connected to Amp. It sounds really nice.

However if you actually plan to have a 5.1 system, then perhaps a 5 Channel preamp should work. I have used a not so popular trick. I connected Emotova DC 1 to Mosconi DSP (4to6) as a preamp now. So now I not only have time-alignment but phase, crossover and level settings too.

Mosconi's capabilities are much superior to AVRs because of their fully dedication to sound.

Needless to say the sound is amazing...

 

[muralimmreddy]

This post is gold

https://www.hifivision.com/threads/what-is-the-role-of-a-preamp.24013/post-338202

 

[magma]

This post is gold

https://www.hifivision.com/threads/what-is-the-role-of-a-preamp.24013/post-338202

This post is dated
In 10 yrs the dac's.
With built in volume controls have come a long long way

The debate on analog and digital
Volume control within dacs
Also doesn't hold much water now as it used to


Digital volume controls have come a long way now
And sound really good in some well made and engineered dacs like the gustard , matrix and many European dacs too


Of course high end purists are free to scoff on my opinions ( i don't deny that the really high end preamps would be different but very few of us play the audio game at that level )

Hence i personally belive that for most non finicky audiophiles
Who don't really have multiple ANalog sources
The preamp is a dying species

Especially since today
People tend to have multiple DIGITAL sources and maybe only 1 analog one ( most probably Tt)

So a good dac
Having multiple digital inputs and one analog pass through
And a well built volume control
Should be sufficient for most audiophiles

 

[muralimmreddy]

This post is dated

Thread may be dated. But that particular post is timeless, non-technical and logical.

But i agree to your point. I myself use gustard x26 as both dac and preamp with monoblocks

But i myself often in conundrum to add a tube preamp just add that little of tube magic.

 

[magma]

Thread may be dated. But that particular post is timeless, non-technical and logical.

But i agree to your point. I myself use gustard x26 as both dac and preamp with monoblocks

But i myself often in conundrum to add a tube preamp just add that little of tube magic.

Lovely preamp/dac choice

I think it's one of the better engineered products in dacs and preamps

May not have a huge fan following like some other brands
But gustard does make some great stuff

Cheers

 

[essrand]

Preamp, always, always.

I wasted 5 yrs trying to bypass a preamp, the only solution is to buy an integrated. IMHO.

Even the Bricasti M12 which is a preamp/DAC with source controller for addition of an analog source, was not worth it.

I have an all Nagra system, the Nagra Tube DAC has supposedly world class volume control, going direct into a NAGRA amp, did not work. Both same brands (theoretically, it should have worked, some very experienced audiophiles told me so), still I prefer a preamp, a Nagra preamp.

I have tried everything, either go integrated or suck it up and buy a preamp (there are very few good ones). So, get an integrated that has been my experience. YMMV of course, but I can't think how.