True Audiophile

Arj,
Thanks for the concrete example of the Sugden A21. I was so curious to see how bad the measurements were that I went to a Stereophile article:
Sugden A21ai Series 2 integrated amplifier Measurements | Stereophile.com

This measure the A21ai series, and I am not sure if this is substantially different from your original A21 series, since I am not an expert of this series of amps. However, if you notice the freq. response, it is almost ruler-flat for all real impedance loads (the green is a hard test of simulated load and all amps that I have compared have this performance curve for simulated load).

The difference is preamp channels is almost negligible, and the small-signal square-waves are quite clean. So all these measurements suggest to me a well-designed, well-behaved amplifier.

The bad measurement, which has affected all its subjective performance, is the high THD as you correctly point out. Even there, it is reasonable at 8 ohms, and gets worse at lower impedances. This seems to suggest that the Sudgen cannot drive low loads well and will struggle. That is also borne out by the review, which warns that careful equipment matching is needed, and that the sound has a distinct character which may not be liked by all.

So, I do not see how this is an example of a badly measured amp which has superlative performance. The measurements give an indication of possible shortcomings, and the review seems to be in line with the measurements. Am I missing something?

However, you are right about the fact that measurements do no encompass all the subtle behaviour of devices, and we cannot compare two devices side by side based on measurements alone, because many parameters we hear are coupled in different measurement plots.

What I am trying to point out is that anyone who says measurements are useless and we should only play by ear, is not completely cognizant of the important part that measurements (and quantitiative experiments) play in any engineered product, including audio equipment.

:) I used to run a 4 Ohm 87 db speaker with that...the sound was enough to mesmerize, but what i missed was resolution :(
i believe the older original A21 measured even worse (as per Hifi+)

Anyway i believe we are both saying the same thing although our personal philosophy on this may slightly differ. believe me i was an objectivist (and an Athiest to boot)
these days believe in Intuition a lot more than measured approach..based on what i have seen/learnt and experienced over the years...but these need to be backed by some semblance of a research/science. as My Strategy Prof used to say, 95% of all strategic decisions are taken first and then the data/statistics collected later to prove the same ;)

anyway the way i reason to myself these days is that I am in Audio for the music and this has to be thru my ear...so even if my brain says the opposite..i will go by my ear !!!
 
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:) I used to run a 4 Ohm 87 db speaker with that...the sound was enough to mesmerize, but what i missed was resolution :(
i believe the older original A21 measured even worse (as per Hifi+)

Anyway i believe we are both saying the same thing although our personal philosophy on this may slightly differ. believe me i was an objectivist (and an Athiest to boot)
these days believe in Intuition a lot more than measured approach..based on what i have seen/learnt and experienced over the years...but these need to be backed by some semblance of a research/science. as My Strategy Prof used to say, 95% of all strategic decisions are taken first and then the data/statistics collected later to prove the same ;)

anyway the way i reason to myself these days is that I am in Audio for the music and this has to be thru my ear...so even if my brain says the opposite..i will go by my ear !!!

Arj,
I agree with your points about balancing measurements and experience/intuition.
If ever funds (or friends) permit, I will try to listen to a Sudgen with a low ohm load to see what it sounds like :-)


-Ajinkya.
 
Would you have asked the same question if you would have auditioned it instead of me ?
The conversation has moved on since I was last here, but, just for the record (or CD) --- indeed I would. Taking part in threads like this has led me to explore and learn further about sound than I ever did before. I guess that even a few of my own myths (and that means things I was really certain about) have been exploded in that process. They have been replaced, after both learning and observations, with new certainties, like being certain that I hear differences that cannot be there. Equally, I feel disapointed in not being able to hear differences that should be there!

I spent several hours, yesterday, trying to determine if my new phono stage is worth it.

For a start, it is tricky to set up the test with multitrack playback in which one can solo any tack, so change quickly from one to another. One has to normalise the tracks so that there is no difference in level (louder always sounds better, brighter, deeper fuller, unless it is already too loud).

I have two possible external phono-preamps, a new stand-alone Musical Fidelity V-LPS II, and the pre-amps bult into a small Soundcraft mixer. The mixer is from a "real" mixer company, but is an entry-level. With its array of mic preamps and controls, it probably cost about the same as the single phono-preamp (but should this influence me?) Actually, experience up to now has shown me that Audacity's built in RIAA curve, applied in software, sounds better to me than the Soundcraft's pre-amped output.

All this stuff is childsplay to a studio engineer, but it took me ages to get three tracks, close enough that they sounded to be the same volume, confirmed as far a I knew how with readings, and even longer to get the tracks lined up in time, which is very hard to do accurately, as the three wave forms all look different (a "measurable difference"). How I wished I'd chosen a track with a single prominent scratch! Granted, I laboured at this mostly for fun. A bit of a jump in the audio when changing samples probably wouldn't have mattered.

Then I spent time looking at the tracks as spectrographs (yes, they look different! A measurable difference) and trying, to correlate, from a standpoint of complete prior ignorance, what I was seeing with what I was hearing.

By the end of all this, I had reached no satisfactory conclusion, except that I was fed up and bored with my test track. I took the headphones out of the audio interface, plugged them into analogue out from the mixer (phono-amp in), listened to another track and it blew me away!

Long time ago, a friend and I extended a hobby into a small (so small you'd hardy notice: still more fun than money) business making perfumed cosmetic creams. One of early lessons: you must label each jar of each batch as you go along, because after an hour of smelling them, you cannot tell the difference between rose and lavender ... and mothballs!

BTW, the question still remains, does the laser read less number of bytes when the CD was not treated with this anti-static box ?
No it doesn't. There's probably a technical term for it among those who know all the [il-]logical arguments, but the question does not even arise. You do not have any data whatsoever about the number of bits read before or after, or whether they included any errors. Certainly ears do not count bits ...although they may notice a missing byte or two!

If you want to do this experiment, you should read the data into a file, before and after, and then compare and analyse the file contents. Does "digital" mean you get the same results from every read? Off a properly functioning HDD, yes: Off a CD, perhaps not; perhaps a speck of dust could make the difference.



There are many parameters which exists in music but cannot be measured scientifically,
It's reproduction can be measured. Differences between reproductions can be observed by more than ear.
...for example PRAT, timbral accuracy, coherence. Any of this lacking can make music sound unnatural. You ask me to prove it, I cannot.
I think we should all ask ourselves how much time we spend in the concert hall, or in the studio. Unless the answer is, "a lot," then I think that our very definition of "natural music" is moulded more by hifi systems than it is by musicians. Remember my remark about the string quartet in your living room?

I remember my first live ballet performance. It was a great dispointment. It looks so graceful and ethereal on the television. The reality is that they are jumping up and down on wooden boards: plenty of thuds and bumps! My view of what ballet, and its music, was supposed to be like, had been formed by TV and recordings: not by the thing itself.
 
Ajinkya,
I can give you many examples of amps which are well rated but sound crap. In fact the fact that you are asking me such a question suggests that you are not yet exposed to lot of gears, which is okay, we all had been through this phase. Believe me, no amount of arguments, counter arguments, forums and internet is going to enlighten you enough to understand these things. The only way is to experience. I promise you, you will yourself find a reason to justify what you hear. I dont think anyone of us ignore specs, just that the amount of weightage I allocate to it could be less because I try to get an audition no matter what. A 50 watt Naim Nait 5i sounds clearly more powerful and dynamic than a 200 watt Rotel RB991. I know this after listening. Now if I try I may be able to find a technical reason for this but I am sure someone who likes the Rotel more would also find technical reason for the same. My point is, specs are mere indications or say an introduction to the gear.
 
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One doesnt need any credential to recognize rightness of music reproduction. It is always the flaws which are difficult to pinpoint and hence need experience. The more one is exposed to real instruments and real performances the more he/she can laser-focus on the "exact" flaw in a music system. When music sounds right everyone is hooked.
 
Arj,
If ever funds (or friends) permit, I will try to listen to a Sudgen with a low ohm load to see what it sounds like :-)


-Ajinkya.

with the right speakers. it is The best amp i have heard at that price point. Period !
the right speakers are any easy to drive speaker...Proac, PMC,JMR , JM Labs, Spendor and even Harbeths sound very good with it
check these out
 
It has to be taken into account that iTrax is in the business of selling digital music, and that it sells higher-spec copies of the same music at a higher price than lower-spec. Unless this can be justified on purely band-width usuage (maybe ... I certainly haven't tried any sums), then I think that is wrong.

None of that invalidates any fact given there. Just because information comes from a salesman doesn't mean it's wrong! I have no head for remembering numbers, but I think that all the comparative figures for dynamic range and SNR can be confirmed from other sources.

It is often said that the vinyl sound that is so much loved is actually the result of distortion. Is it so strange that distortion should be attractive? No! Without distortion we could not have the sound of the electric guitar!

If it is true, then I wonder if someone could produce the vinyl sound from a digital recording by EQ and effects processing? That would make for a very interesting experiment.
 
At its output side, a DAC is just another analogue source.

I think we forget that, and talk as if digital was some totally different thing. The analogue out of a DAC or sound card/interface can have any colour, etc, that it's designers build in, intentionally or otherwise.
 
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Getting back to the digital & Analogue. Sorry I humbly take back my words posted few pages back as there is compression of music on vinyls too. But it is mostly done in analogue format. So it all boils down to mastering on the medium.

So how to know mastering is good ? Interesting info from the mastering guru himself. (He says vinyl format is lifelike sounding :) and he works on analogue as much as possible.)
Interview with Steve Hoffman by Brian Smith

Some info on mastering which may help in recognizing well mastered music.
Recording: The 10 Most Frequently Asked Questions About Mastering - Pro Sound Web

A guide to well mastered music. lots of music :licklips: also lots of info on audio things.
Honor Roll

So guys keep spinning no matter if it is CDs or vinyls.
Regards
 
That assumes that either the CD, or the extraction, is faulty or inaccurate.
QUOTE]

Correct !

Actually the difference is between a complete lack of jitter VS minimal jitter error

Playing from memory VS playing realtime using a highly sophisticated mechanical transport.

A downloaded pristine flac file will be accurate since it is not derived from a mechanical device.
 
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Hi Hiten

With a Steve Hoffman mastering, vinyl and cd pretty much sound the same. I have owned most of Steve Hoffman mastered cds for DCC.
 
So, I do not see how this is an example of a badly measured amp which has superlative performance. The measurements give an indication of possible shortcomings, and the review seems to be in line with the measurements. Am I missing something?

I think the performance of the Sugden A21 should be seen within its constraints (which is nothing but its operating boundaries), just like many other, if not most, audio components. People have loved this amp for the last 40 years in its various iterations, and have accepted it for what it is, despite its published 10% THD which is bad by any measure. I think even many home-brewed gear would measure better:)


However, you are right about the fact that measurements do no encompass all the subtle behaviour of devices, and we cannot compare two devices side by side based on measurements alone, because many parameters we hear are coupled in different measurement plots.

So little is known of how a specific measurement of audio components translate to a sonic characteristic. Of course there are well-known and oft-used measurements (freq v/s gain, freq v/s phase response, harmonic distortion, total harmonic distortion, slew rate, rise and fall times, S/N, etc, etc, but I don't think even the best audio designers know fully how these translate to, or affect a particular sonic character. Further, there is much debate on how sub and ultra sonic parts of music affect how we perceive music. For example, organ pedals go as low as 16 Hz. Science says the ears cannot perceive such sounds, but most listeners who listen to live organ music, or those who listen on systems that can reproduce such low freqs can feel the presence of such freq components. And I believe the same is true for 20kHz+ freqs. Some part of the body seems to perceive it, perhaps bypassing the usual eardrum-inner ear-nerve-brain route. IMHO, audio measurement is still a lot of art, mainly because the science is so poorly understood.

What I am trying to point out is that anyone who says measurements are useless and we should only play by ear, is not completely cognizant of the important part that measurements (and quantitiative experiments) play in any engineered product, including audio equipment.

+1 to above. It begins with a foundation of science.
 
So little is known of how a specific measurement of audio components translate to a sonic characteristic. Of course there are well-known and oft-used measurements (freq v/s gain, freq v/s phase response, harmonic distortion, total harmonic distortion, slew rate, rise and fall times, S/N, etc, etc, but I don't think even the best audio designers know fully how these translate to, or affect a particular sonic character. Further, there is much debate on how sub and ultra sonic parts of music affect how we perceive music. For example, organ pedals go as low as 16 Hz. Science says the ears cannot perceive such sounds, but most listeners who listen to live organ music, or those who listen on systems that can reproduce such low freqs can feel the presence of such freq components. And I believe the same is true for 20kHz+ freqs. Some part of the body seems to perceive it, perhaps bypassing the usual eardrum-inner ear-nerve-brain route. IMHO, audio measurement is still a lot of art, mainly because the science is so poorly understood.
+1, True.
IMO, that's why there is difference of experience between listening live and recorded performances. Live performances are not filtered to 20-20KHz and not controlled for any THD. Here guys are debating who goes closer to Live like reproduction within recorded media/setup. I would like to follow whoever wins by convincing us. ;)
 
Actually the difference is between a complete lack of jitter VS minimal jitter error

Playing from memory VS playing realtime using a highly sophisticated mechanical transport.

A downloaded pristine flac file will be accurate since it is not derived from a mechanical device.
I'm not sure that I understand you, so please excuse if I have got the wrong end of the stick, but I'm reminded of the power-cord controversy here: expensive power chord = change in the last couple of feet of a line that is much longer in your house, and kilometres from the power station.

Another analogy is the social-issue arguments where history is chosen to justify or dismiss an issue: the point in history is always chosen to favour the case being made, and what came before is conveniently ignored.

Thus, we have a FLAC file, playing from ram ... but where did the file come from?

Personally (with a capital "P" --- no offence to anybody!) I think that this play-from-ram idea is (like expensive power cables) an unnecessary fad. The CD drive is, as I have said, a slow and clunky piece of equipment, and yet it is perfectly capable of transferring data sufficiently fast to play audio. Hard disc drives are very much faster, and can serve up your spreadsheets and WP docs at the same time as your audio. And, it all gets bufferred, anyway, on the way to your sound card, so in a sense, everything is played from ram!

jls001, there is no doubt that the body can respond to frequencies outside the range that can be heard. Are not some very low frequencies used as weapons? Some very high frequencies used in medicine? I'm quite prepared to believe that this results in there being something unique about live acoustic music. Sadly, even so-called acoustic music, in the concert hall, usually reaches us via electronics and speakers. As a carnatic music listener, I rant about that quite a lot!
 
Hi Hiten

With a Steve Hoffman mastering, vinyl and cd pretty much sound the same. I have owned most of Steve Hoffman mastered cds for DCC.
:yahoo:

Just checked his discography. Tons of work he has mastered. from DCC I like music of The Cars, Johnny Cash, The eagles Greatest Hits, Bill Evans, Hits from Shaft etc. So will be looking for these vinyls. Another favorite Bill Haley & his comets is on CD. I had his 'There Goes Rhymin' Simon' (Paul Simon) which sounded lovely. Also from his website it looks like who's who of musicians & artist mastering work is in his name. :)
I dont know why his website have listed recordings not mastered by him ?
 
Hi Hiten

His stuff is very good. Hotel California is fabulous. So are the Elvis Presley ones.
 
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