True Audiophile

[square_wave]

Dr. Bass

Accepted. The nearest good vinyl based system I know of is Manav's. Sooner or later when I listen to it and find it better than a CDP based system, I will be DELIGHTED to admit the superiority of vinyl. It would be great to discover a better sound than anything I have heard before. Isn't that what the pursuit of high fidelity is all about?

I will still keep listening to CD music, because the collection I have now is my final one. It will last me till the grim reaper comes along and starts singing This Is The End . Beyond the fact that the music I like is only available on CD, I have no loyalty or special affinity for compact discs. Ego and hardened opinions are a heavy load to carry, therefore I have tried to shed them. It is easier to admit that you are wrong about something, than to stubbornly carry the load of ignorance for the rest of your life!

It is possible that the trend which began in the 80's towards digital music may be part of a cost cutting, profit maximising trend at the cost of sacrificing sound quality. But the exercise seems to be backfiring on the music industry because vinyl was a 'closed' technology where it was not easy to duplicate recordings. Whereas with digital music it is open season.

Good to hear this Ajay. Please do listen to some hi-end turn table setups and do post back your views. I too do not own a hi-end turn table now. I used to own one when I was in college. It was my first exposure to hifidelity sound. Believe me; you may just like one over the other because of your priorities or taste. With your exclusive interest in western classical, I have this feeling that you will stay with digital due to massive collections which are available on cd / hd tracks.

Most sensible audiophiles who have ACTUAL EXPERIENCE with hi-end versions of analogue and digital understand and appreciate the value of both. They respect the intrinsic value of both but may prefer to live with either or both.

Very rarely I come across a sensible audiophile that has actual experience with both but tries to put down the other unless they are provoked and attacked about their preference.

Once a friend told me:

Vinyl It is like sex. Glorious and real !

Digital It is like sex but with rubber. Nice and fun too !

 

[ajay124]

squarewave

This discussion has heightened my interest in listening to vinyl. Hopefully I will be able to audition a couple of systems soon.

I am planning to visit Gurgaon because I want to check out the Thiel 2.4's which have finally made it to the North at the new Bass & Treble outlet in Sector 31, Gurgaon. Since the same outlet is also carrying Bryston, I am looking forward to auditioning the Thiel's with a BP6/4B SST amplification. I am even contemplating carrying my Transparent interconnects and speaker cables. So that the only variables from my present system would be the Thiel's, the source and the room!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Oh Yes! That's how ones approach should be. The very essence of this hobby. But converting some music to digital will loose its faithfulness.

Why?

In fact, if you digitise your lp, and then play back the digital files, through the same system (especially if you do it before any noise removal process), you should get all the faithfulness there is!

Having said that, I am currently not satisfied with my results. Is this a digital v analogue thing? I don't think so: it is a component thing. I used to digitise using the same integrated-amplifier phono stage as I listened with, and I don't remember any disatisfaction then. A new phono pre-amp is on the way.

I am little weary of words such as faithfullness, romance, etc. When we use such terms, we are looking at very subjective points that will never lead to any meaningful discussion. At this level, we are just a few steps away from getting into even greyer areas such as, "I can hear it, cant' you", "I have better ears than yours", etc.

As I said since I can come close to the original sine wave, the convenience of a digital system far outweighs the fullness, faithfullness, romance, or anything else I may be missing.

Cheers

Quite.

I also want to disagree with those who are saying that comparison is only valid on hi-end systems. The comparison should be valid at any level. If it is true that we can only discuss high end, then the conversation is only valid among those that can afford it!

I suggest (because I don't have the experience, and would be interested in the responses) that some high-end systems have, rather than a transparent sound, a particular sound signature which their devotees just love. Back in the day of reading UK hi-fi magazines, I remember there was often some controversy over the British manufacturer Linn. Many considered it just perfect, but there were others who said that its sound was not true at all.

 

[Dr.Bass]

I believe we should try and help each person maximise the potential in the format they are comfortable with rather than thrust a new format insisting its superior

Yes :thumbsup:

 

[ajay124]

I agree with what prem has written in the above quote. Most of the folks who have posted on this thread already have fairly clear preferences for one or both options as a source.

But new entrants should be enabled to view both sides of the picture, rather than being nudged or pushed in one particular direction. All the food should be laid out on the table. Let them decide individually which dish they want to sample or gorge on

 

[Dr.Bass]

I also want to disagree with those who are saying that comparison is only valid on hi-end systems. The comparison should be valid at any level. If it is true that we can only discuss high end, then the conversation is only valid among those that can afford it!

No No...the comparison is valid on any "good" system. When it comes to TT a good system is one which is properly setup. It is extremely easy to have a poor sounding TT system simply because it was not well setup. A $2k TT can sound much better than a $10k TT if the former was properly setup and the later was not.

Talk about digital, such discrepancies hardly occur right ? That is also one of the reasons why I said most audiophiles would have heard good digital but very few would have heard good analogue.

 

[Dr.Bass]

But new entrants should be enabled to view both sides of the picture, rather than being nudged or pushed in one particular direction. All the food should be laid out on the table. Let them decide individually which dish they want to sample or gorge on

You know what Ajay, there is a very strong virtual push already existing and it is towards Digital. The whole movement is towards digital and most newbies are born with digital in their mind. We are only trying to put a feeble case for analogue as well, mostly for a curious mind to explore. The food on the table is all digital, our recipe is like that "Russian Salad" placed in one corner hidden behind many other spicy dishes. Only a curious mind will taste it.

 

[prem]

Hi Ajay

I agree with you all the components in the chain are important but i have always felt that the source is most critical. But thats me. I would like to get as neutral a source as possible within my budget and then look at a amp speaker combo which is to my sound preferences

 

[prem]

Hi Thad E Ganithom

If two mediums need to be compared, it has to be with the best sources available. There is no point comparing for example a Technics SL 1200 with say a Cambridge 840 and proclaiming one medium is better than the other because with both these machines you are not hearing the full potential of that medium. You could end up choosing one over the other but that becomes your personal sound preference. It has got nothing to do with one medium being superior to the other. For example i preferred the Esoteric cd player to a top of the line Goldenote vinyl set up but then i preferred the EMT to my Esoteric. That does not mean vinyl is superior or inferior to cd. Tomorrow i might prefer
another cd player to my EMT and go that route.

 

[sud98]

Does digital have to be CD?

What about SACD or lossless PCM (as in Blu Ray)? Some of the concert Blu rays have amazing sound.

The 24 bit music I heard from some of the sample appeared far superior to the 16 bit sound.

But I dont know how they compare to vinyl?

 

[ajay124]

prem

Have you heard the K-01? On paper it seems to be a big step up from the XO series. Perhaps this will fell the EMT giant

K-01 | Audio Players | Esoteric Company

 

[prem]

No Ajay, i have not heard the K01. I think the future is computer audio. I would not want to put big money on a conventional cd/sacd player. Next time i am abroad, would like to listen to a lot of computer audio set ups. I feel in a year or two there will be a lot of progress here. Also hi rez downloads which is today available mainly for classical music from niche companies will soon be available from the big labels also.

A friend of mine has heard the K03 and did not find much difference between the X03 SE and the K03. In fact he preferred the X03 SE.

 

[anilva]

I would like to jump in and add my own experience as well.

I have both the digital and analog playback systems. They are not the highest end, but respectable setups. I like the both the CD and the Vinyl setups. I love AR Rahman on Digital. He truly exploits amongst few others the Digital medium. Similarly I love some of the analog recordings of Michael Jackson, Dire Straits, U2, Pink Floyd amongst others, who have paid enough and more attention to recording of their masters and their vinyl products.

Therefore not just the medium but the artist and what medium he has chosen and the attention to recording that they have employed comes into play. Both the mediums have outstanding ones as well average and lousy ones.

From my own personal experience, same album of Dire Straits or Pink Floyd sounds better on my Vinyl system than my CD system in terms of warmth and dynamic range. The amplification and the speakers being the same. I am fairly certain that this is not due to the limitation of the medium but the way the CDs are produced from the master tapes (analog). I would love to compare two same albums of AR Rahman on Vinyl and CD, who masters everything in Digital. I have not been able to do so far.

I will keep both the sources and enjoy what suits best. I have no religious affiliation on either of them. Purely from the joy of watching music being played...I love vinyl. I think it has something to do with my childhood memories! At the same time Digital presents tremendous amount of convenience.

As an aside, I have recently obtained and played a symphony on a bluray lossless Audio. Sounds truly like a Master! Breathtaking!

Cheers.

 

[Dr.Bass]

Recently I heard a Micro Seiki SX-8000 MKII :
GoodSoundClub - Romy the Cat's Audio Site - Some shades of the Micro Seikis bonsai.

Right besides it was a Marantz SA7S1 mated with a dCS Puccini clock. The Micro Seiki was wonderful and when he played the digital system I was like, what the heck !! The digital system was looking right in the eye of the Micro Seiki. These are rare moments when you feel happy and humbled to have learnt yet another thing or two about music reproduction.

Having said that, this was one of the very rare occasions when digital sounded right to my ears. It made me forget about the media....even though I was critically listening !! But then, the guy who owns the setup never listens to his digital system. He has a clear preference towards his analogue rig.

 

[prem]

Hi Anilva

Rang De Basanti on vinyl sounds better than the cd. I prefer Guru on cd. Jodha Akbar, Lagaan and Vande Mataram pretty much sound the same. These observations could be because of mastering/pressing differences.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

But, most of us never have that chance. I can compare an old Dual turntable with a old Marantz CD player. I can add my PC into the mix: it is probably better than either of the others, but I do not have direct connection facilities any longer.

You may be right about the levels of equipment, although I suspect that, after one reaches the upper-middle "end" that increases (especially the measurable ones) in performance are severely subject to diminishing returns.

I'd agree wholeheartedly that, in the end, it is the sound that a person likes that decides the issue for them. I don't know if the source matters the most, but I do think that nothing can improve a faulty source.

No No...the comparison is valid on any "good" system. When it comes to TT a good system is one which is properly setup. It is extremely easy to have a poor sounding TT system simply because it was not well setup. A $2k TT can sound much better than a $10k TT if the former was properly setup and the later was not.

Here's the lowdown on a turntable like mine...

it should be on a level surface. Any transit screws should be fully loose. The arm should be balanced and then the weight set to something appropriate, probably as recommended in the literature for deck/cartridge/stylus. That's it. It is now properly set up. A little more than connecting a pair of cables to a CD player ... but not much.

Now consider audiophile-land-TT setup. The infinite variables; motors that may not even be physically coupled to the TT body; drive-band materials, tensions, and a host of other things that I probably don't even know about.

I'm not saying that some of these machines are not well worth of it (some of them are works of art, let alone audio engineering), but let us be cautious. The chances are that someone who is prepared to spend this money and go through this process is going to hear the difference.

With respect to those who own such beauties: nobody goes in for this kind of stuff unless, first, they believe. And belief is powerful.

Talk about digital, such discrepancies hardly occur right ? That is also one of the reasons why I said most audiophiles would have heard good digital but very few would have heard good analogue.

Join in the cable controversies. Follow the threads where people believe that life cannot be complete without an external, stand-alone DAC, (the people who want to know if they need a DAC, without understanding that they have several already!). Consider the number of people who believe that good analogue sound cannot be produced by a PC sound card, even of it cost over $1,000....




[[[Totally off-topic... I need my turntable serviced in Chennai: if anyone can help, please post here.]]]

 

[Hiten]

I am little weary of words such as faithfullness, romance, etc. When we use such terms, we are looking at very subjective points that will never lead to any meaningful discussion.

Faithfullmess = True to the original
May be bad choice of word but not meaningless.

Why?
In fact, if you digitise your lp, and then play back the digital files, through the same system (especially if you do it before any noise removal process), you should get all the faithfulness there is!

Sorry I did not made myself more clear. When an artist records a song/music and once it is in the master tape It is not good idea to manipulate it. It only needs to be amplified for the speakers. (Isn't that the reason we don't have tone controls in high fidelity systems besides distortion and phase issue). If we trust pro recording engineers decades ago. They have paintstakingly produced vinyls for good fidelity. It will not make sense to digitize them unless one is using high end AD converter of which I have zero knowledge. That may bring us to remastering of old material. Is it good to listen to remastered material ? I dont know. But if I have original material I would not go and buy remastered vinyl or cd, no matter how good it is. I want to listen to original unadulterated stuff.
Regarding Hindi music. With due respect to each and everyone in the industry we all know how some of the Hindi work is badly recorded. Any emphasis on high frequency or attenuation of low frequency will sound clean and clear which may result in 'awesome' digital remastered CD. Tell me honestly can anyone differentiate what bad bad things remastering engineers has done to the original OR if you are on the other side the good things done to the original. And as for the modern Indian music isn't there something like Autotune or something like that which I think Cranky (I miss him) mentioned in the past. Not a true 'live performance like sound reproduction' approach I will say.

 

[Hiten]

I am little weary of words such as faithfullness, romance, etc. When we use such terms, we are looking at very subjective points that will never lead to any meaningful discussion. At this level, we are just a few steps away from getting into even greyer areas such as, "I can hear it, cant' you", "I have better ears than yours", etc.
As I said since I can come close to the original sine wave, the convenience of a digital system far outweighs the fullness, faithfullness, romance, or anything else I may be missing.
Cheers

Yes, really. The last time I head a completely digital system (a high end I must confess), believe it or not, the sound in two channel system enveloped me completely. Some of the sound came from behind my head, and I was sitting nearly 10 feet away from the system. If you closed your eyes, you would think the singer and the orchestra were singing live for you. I have heard that kind of soundstage a long time ago in a shop in London, and that was also playing a digital system with B&W speakers.
That is good enough for me.
Cheers

Warmest regards

 

[square_wave]

I would love to compare two same albums of AR Rahman on Vinyl and CD, who masters everything in Digital. I have not been able to do so far.

.

I have not heard AR Rehmans studio masters. But if how his cds are any indication, his music is very digital sounding. Most of us call the effect on our ears digititis ! They are extremely over engineered creations. AR Rehmans use of the digital medium borders on mainstream commercial excess. Very bad example for doing experiments.

Recently we conducted an experiment on a fully digital system (extremely hi-end). A very old Illayaraja music vs a latest AR Rehman release. We were shocked how much of the real soul in the music is missing from the Rehmans cd compared to the Illayaraja recording which was done on analogue. It was mind boggling!

Bright excess VS a window into the music ! I am going OT heresorry.

 

[baijuxavior]

As an aside, I have recently obtained and played a symphony on a bluray lossless Audio. Sounds truly like a Master! Breathtaking!

What is the future of bluray audio? Can a bluray audio beat vinyles? I guess so with the huge bandwidth available on BR disks.