Turning the tide... New Active Speakers

[GeorgeO]

Arihant

This discussion about great actives and a bias towards "not so great passives" is in my view missing the point. I have been a happy owner of four sets of outstanding passives and have no desire to move to actives. Why? Because I like them, and they work for me. The speaker is only one element of the listening experience-and I presume that the listening experience is the holy grail that we all seek( at least that's what I am seeking), right?

IMHO it is more productive to talk about the other elements that might improve the experience-maybe gear, the environment, well recorded music, etc.

My last post on this thread.

 

[arhantd]

I completely agree.

the intention of the thread initially was to find whether the new speakers that are coming out, like dynaudio Xeos,
are a desirable option some where between a passive setup and active monitors.
But few have experience with them and so it got carried away into other discussions.

Now since its a better idea to talk about how to improve the performance of a setup. if someone wants to highlight how they have considerably improved their active setups by tweaking/changing things in the chain?

Also i was looking at the preamp with dac options as suggested to use my powered speakers with multiple sources, i had some confusion.
I was looking at Maverick Tube Dac. Now, say i connect my computer in the usb input and my tv in the analog input.
So only the usb input will pass through the DAC, right? The analog input will go directly in analog form to my speakers?
And what about the tube in the preamp will it affect the sound of both the TV and PC?

Are there any better alternatives at the price of about 10k?

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The manufacturer's page and FAQs should answer your question

The TubeMagic D1 comes with a vacuum tube pre-amp output stage in addition to the normal solid-state audio output. Powered by a vintage vacuum tube made in 1970s, it adds a lot of warmth and smoothness to the music, especially to Vocal and Jazz genres. Furthermore, you can use this DAC as a full functional tube preamp, adding the tube magic to the two analog and three digital inputs.

...Might be just the simple option. One of my favourite ways of evaluating the functionality of any equipment is to download the manual. manual writers tend to be more straightforward than marketing men! I could only see a Quick-Start Guide --- but that might help.

On the general subject of actives vs passives, we have to bring in the favourite audiophile word synergy.

If one goes for an all-in-the-boxes active system speaker system, especially if it includes a DAC, then one is placing the entire responsibility for synergy in the hands of the manufacturer. Given the prices one would have to pay for anything other than entry-level (which may not be truly "active" anyway), and the fact that these people are often selling into professional environments, it's hoped that this is a good bet --- and one truly will get a system where everything in the chain is not only tuned but designed to work together, even down to having separate amplifiers where the tweeter amps are matched to the tweeters and the woofer amps are matched to the woofers. How many people bi-amp anyway? Let alone having an amp for each driver?

Expensive ...but you are getting an awful lot for your money.

What you are not getting is the opportunity to experiment with each and every component, or upgrade components individually. That is too big a price to pay for many people, to whom that is a great part of the pleasure!

I haven't read Sound-on-Sound every month since I left London, but ...funny how I don't remember it being full of stuff like cable reviews...

 

[arhantd]

Thanks for the information ill have a look at the guide.
But from the para you have quoted it seems even the analog inputs get routed through the tube. So i don't know what it will do to the sound of my Tv.
Ill look for other options as well. I need to order blind and dont want to spend more than 10k.

And yes as i have come to realise the need to experiment and upgrade is very much there in this field.
I think everyone into audio goes through that phase as they learn more.

 

[denom]

Arihant

This discussion about great actives and a bias towards "not so great passives" is in my view missing the point. I have been a happy owner of four sets of outstanding passives and have no desire to move to actives. Why? Because I like them, and they work for me. The speaker is only one element of the listening experience-and I presume that the listening experience is the holy grail that we all seek( at least that's what I am seeking), right?

IMHO it is more productive to talk about the other elements that might improve the experience-maybe gear, the environment, well recorded music, etc.

My last post on this thread.

My gardener, (mali) as we call him here, always asks me where I am going when he sees me leaving to go out. Last time I was going to Terrazzo I told him I was going to relish the finest Italian pizza available in the area where I live. I brought back a piece for him and after tasting it he was aghast and began to explain how he simply couldnt understand how youngsters of today love pizza when the best culinary experience he has ever had was the local Maharashtrian zunka bhakar he's been enjoying since he was a kid and nothing could possibly beat it in taste! Well, he always does the same thing whenever he sees me drinking scotch, starts to mutter how he can never understand how youngsters of today love all these fancy foreign alcohols when the best booze is desi daru (country liquor) santra as he calls it.

My gardener is not at all interested in trying to appreciate any premium food & drink or giving it an honest evaluation even when he gets an easy opportunity. But if our moderators could have a more progressive attitude especially to technologies that are marking the future, it would greatly improve the standards and quality of discussion on this forum

Active loudspeaker technology can provide far reaching solutions to most problems that passive loudspeaker technologies have absolutely no solution for. We all know you have been trying some basic experiments with some active crossovers used in PA systems along with various amplifiers, but to understand the advanced problems and solutions that advanced active loudspeaker technologies can provide, you have to be pretty highly educated in (electroacoustics) loudspeaker technology, acoustics and electronics. If you ever have the opportunity to attend one of the elaborate technical seminars conducted by the Genelec team in India, I guarantee it will be an eye opener. So GeorgeO, its fine to like passives. If you have a technical point to make, we are all interested to know how and why yours or others passive speakers can outperform active speakers. But if its all just about jumping into an active loudspeaker discussion and just always only saying you like passives every time, its not adding any value to the discussion. If you dont have a technical explanation, then we get your point that you really like passive speakers and we wont forget that.

 

[kanwar]

Arihant

I have been a happy owner of four sets of outstanding passives and have no desire to move to actives. Why? Because I like them, and they work for me. The speaker is only one element of the listening experience-and I presume that the listening experience is the holy grail that we all seek( at least that's what I am seeking), right?
My last post on this thread.

Should i say that your reply reflects someone with a very close mind frame who either because of no knowledge of actives or don't want to appreciate the way actives unleash a fairly new endeavor towards listening.

 

[thevortex]

Every one of us has their own bias, their own blind sides, etc.. I thought Thad made a perceptive post when he said that hunting and laboriously matching components with each other has become a lifestyle for many here. I always like to say that the excitement is always in the hunt - especially for men! (No - I am not anti-feminist )

 

[arhantd]

When i came to the forum first i looked at both passive and active setups and i dint know too much about any. Then i realized most people here only audition and look at passives so i thought of doing the same until some people like denom told me to go listen to a genelec speaker.

I immediately wrote back to him saying but they are supposed to be flat sounding and boring! He just laughed and said well go listen and see for yourself. I was amazed at how wrong i was, they did sound awesome. I couldnt quite categorize the sound but it was definitely not broing.

Ya sure i agree everyone is biased and every one has a personal opinion and so forth. Even i would like to indulge myself in the hobby and freedom of matching different components as per my taste but what i dont get or rather dont like is that people don't even audition these great active speakers. This is just my personal opinion.

And its geared more towards people who are looking for new setups specially on a budget and who actually look towards the forum to guide them. Its one thing to listen to them and then decide that they are not to your liking but its a different thing to not audition at all.

To me yes they are not the best looking but they do provide amazing value and sound for the price.


All i want to say is people who are looking for a new setup should atleast give these speakers a listen. Not only Genelec but also the many more brands available.


As a side note: Any preamp with dac combo for around 10k i can look at? will order from US so cannot really audition.

 

[Audioman]

As a side note: Any preamp with dac combo for around 10k i can look at? will order from US so cannot really audition.

Have never seen any preamp+dac combo for 10k but if u r willing to pay a bit more, this Cypress DCT-21 is really quite nice
http://www.hifivision.com/preamplif...eamplifier-dac-cypress-technology-co-ltd.html

 

[kanwar]

Some members might have listened to active speakers, but did anyone of them tasted a real active system.? I don't think so......hence making blind assumptions is baseless.

 

[rohitmusic]

Some members might have listened to active speakers, but did anyone of them tasted a real active system.? I don't think so......hence making blind assumptions is baseless.

IMHO, It would be really awesome if someone could provide a starting and upgrade path on how to setup a good active system.
Example: For your first system go for these options in your budget.
Your upgrade path should look like these..

I find a lot more discussion on passive and rather very limited on actives (unfortunately!) I also could not audition good active systems the only systems I have access to are the passive ones in almost all showrooms. For some time I did not even know that something like actives existed and they could be a possible solution! I think passives have been marketed more aggressively to home users than actives. In fact I find hardly any push for actives to home users (understandably from a business sense ) But I guess the eco system currently is that way

Let the best sound sing!

 

[reignofchaos]

Here's the thing - there are bad apples among passives and there are bad apples among actives. Blindly assuming that every active is better than passive is not very wise and neither is the reverse. In theory, actives are obviously far superior since there's very little crossover distortion and there's useless loss of amplifier power.

My personal experience is that there are some really really good actives such as the higher end ATC actives. However much of the mass market actives are just rubbish. Its a different thing altogether if one can get someone experienced like Kanwar to build a custom setup for himself. However that is not what everyone looking at actives is gonna get.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Room fillers or desk-top monitors? New system or component upgrade?

I think that another reason that "actives" are not well known in the hifi market is that, rightly or wrongly, they are associated with near-field monitoring and not with filling a room with sound.

I suggest that it is PC-Audio that has brought active speakers to the attention of the consumer market. What owner of an even half-decent hif wants to listen to tiny, tinny "multimedia" speakers if they use their PC for music while they work? That is certainly what brought me to "powered" (I still only aspire to real "active!") speakers, first with a Mission 2.1 setup. It was good for its price (especially as it was Richer-Sounds-half-price ) but still at the top end of "multi-media," rather than the bottom end of "monitor". My M-Audio AV40s are bottom-end monitor, not even on the ladder of actual actives but still way above multi-media. The trouble is that stepping up to that active rung means a big jump in price --- but I have never yet read a review of even the smallest offerings from, for instance, KRK, Adam, Genelec, that did not say that it was well worth it*.

Whilst even my M-Audios could fill a small bedroom, I don't think anybody would recommend such a speaker, even the smaller actives, for taking off the desk and putting in the hifi room. On the other hand, there are also lots of low-price passives, and, as one upgrades from there, one is going to have (at least) an integrated amplifier. For speaker upgrades, people will be looking to replace just the two boxes on the ends of their speaker cables: they will have no reason to even think "active speakers."

For those looking at building a new system centred around DAC/Pre-amp/Media-PC, active speakers surely make a lot of sense. Some of this "studio" kit comes in sizes all the way to huge ...and the pair of Genelecs that we saw/heard at the previous Chennai meet, no bigger than largish "bookshelves," could have filled a larger room than the meeting hall with ease. And with beautiful sound! But given the horizons and predilections of the audiophile buyer, would they get considered? Perhaps, by the coming generations, they will be.



*One has to admit of the physical limitations of a small woofer in a small box. The reviews, and even the manufacturers, do admit that. Mind you, Genelec claim that they design the same neutral sound signature into every model, size/cost adding only bass extension and SPL.

 

[hemantwaghe]

Some members might have listened to active speakers, but did anyone of them tasted a real active system.? I don't think so......hence making blind assumptions is baseless.

What is " real active system?'

 

[prem]

Kanwar, would you classify a single driver speaker driven by a SET amp as active or passive?

 

[kanwar]

Kanwar, would you classify a single driver speaker driven by a SET amp as active or passive?

Technically speaking:

A full ranger comes under "Active system", because there is no PASSIVE XO between AMP and DRIVER.

 

[prem]

Thanks Kanwar. If i attach a sub to a single driver with the sub driven by its own amp which has its own vol control and crossover control, would the system still be considered active?

 

[kanwar]

What is " real active system?'

Bro,

The regular term active speakers are often "used" [sometimes by habit]for studio domain near field listening environment speakers where the room treatment is always present and what you get is almost near to neutral response to monitor the recordings/playback in studio environment.

But when you have home[living room] as your listening environment where the room treatment is often not present you end up with a place having lot of uneven reflections/absorptions which are way different then what you expect in studio and using active monitors in such environment which are meant for near field listening often results in response which is nowhere near to expected.

To treat this the term active system comes under the scenario.

A system which has means of controlling gain of each driver actively placed [having separate active XO + amp for each driver unit outside of speaker]in the environment which ||could be or could be not|| a near field listening area having zero room treatment, in order to assist the response to match closest to neutral reference in the given environment. Virtually such system must contain a default settings to revert on which must be an easy point to reset every thing to factory settings if someone tampers with it.

In this way there is much more to do in active systems, you have much more to explore and suit which you can't do with passives at all.

PS: In passive bi-amp systems you can alter volume of each driver but the passive XO is still sitting in between the amp and driver creating its own coloration because non-linearity in this stage is much more critical.

Here i am not saying you should not try active speakers, but yes if you want to explore and have room for that go for active system as a whole.



I hope this helps...

 

[kanwar]

Thanks Kanwar. If i attach a sub to a single driver with the sub driven by its own amp which has its own vol control and crossover control, would the system still be considered active?

You are welcome Prem.

In this setup there is an error of overlapping of frequency range between fullranger and sub. Such a system would be a pseudo active then.

Because the moment you added a Sub in the chain, the full ranger and Sub must define a working separate frequency band, else be ready for overlapping and associated peaking.

 

[Kartik v]

Arihant

This discussion about great actives and a bias towards "not so great passives" is in my view missing the point. I have been a happy owner of four sets of outstanding passives and have no desire to move to actives. Why? Because I like them, and they work for me. The speaker is only one element of the listening experience-and I presume that the listening experience is the holy grail that we all seek( at least that's what I am seeking), right?

IMHO it is more productive to talk about the other elements that might improve the experience-maybe gear, the environment, well recorded music, etc.

My last post on this thread.

If you have tried to activate your home speakers by simply using off-the-shelf active crossovers designed for public address systems and just any individual amps for each driver, you are missing the point here. How would you be able to set all the necessary parameters if you do not have: a complete indepth understanding of the science of loudspeakers and acoustics, the measuring equipment (lab) and the resources. The intricacies of active loudspeaker technology is not exactly a DIY hobby thing. Even normal analog active crossovers used in high end audiophile loudspeaker systems do a whole lot of work:

1) Proper split of the various bands for two-way, three-way etc with low phase distortion & low group delay
2) Circuitry to adjust time alignment & phase alignment between drivers
3) Baffle step compensation filtering
4) Driver response compensation filters
5) Constant directivity waveguide compensation filters
6) Input signal tracking to activate driver / amplifier overload protection
7) High pass filter placed just below the lowest operating frequency of the loudspeaker
8) Low pass filter placed just above the highest operating frequency of the loudspeaker
9) Loudspeaker system calibration controls for various acoustic spaces

DSP active crossovers can do a whole lot more with better precision, (like compensation of loudspeaker nonlinearities) but it is too vast to try to explain it here, and the information is useful only if you understand the intricacies and details of the problems in loudspeakers

The amplifier-speaker relationship can also be vastly improved in active speaker designs leading to a huge benefit in overall performance

http://www.pteacoustics.com/linked/the case for powered speakers.pdf

The other elements that might improve the experience-maybe gear, the environment, well recorded music, etc. will have the same effect on both, state of the art active speaker systems or dated passive speaker systems. It like saying, its no point going for the latest technology BMW cars have to offer, if you can try to get a satisfying driving experience from a good old Maruti by concentrating on improving the road conditions and your driving skills. Does that make any sense? If you could improve the road conditions and your driving skills, would it not make your driving experience in the latest BMW even better?

Bro,

The regular term active speakers are often "used" [sometimes by habit]for studio domain near field listening environment speakers where the room treatment is always present and what you get is almost near to neutral response to monitor the recordings/playback in studio environment.

But when you have home[living room] as your listening environment where the room treatment is often not present you end up with a place having lot of uneven reflections/absorptions which are way different then what you expect in studio and using active monitors in such environment which are meant for near field listening often results in response which is nowhere near to expected

Kanwar, I beg to differ from your above explanation of the performance of nearfield monitors in studio enviornments and homes. Before I moved to the UAE, I worked for some years in AR Rahman's studio. I can tell you that nearfield monitors never sound neutral in studios, as they are usually sitting on the console meterbridge or just behind the console meterbridge on stands, so most of what you hear from them is reflected sound off the console. No sensible engineer depends solely on nearfields mounted near the console.

Real proper reference is always from the main monitors mounted against the front wall or flush mounted in the front wall in a half space far away from the console. They are always the main monitoring tools of a good engineer during recording and mixing. The nearfields provide only a decent free space reference for comparison. Nearfield monitors are also used for editing as you dont want them too loud during the process

If great active nearfield monitors like Genelec are properly installed in almost any home and properly calibrated, they sound almost perfect and easily much better than any nearfields can play in the best studios on top of the console meterbridge or just behind the console meterbridge on stands.