Turntable The next level

[stevieboy]

mahiruha,

what i'd strongly recommend is that you stick with the lyrita phonostage cos you haven't really explored it or set it up to match your cart. if you do this and still don't like the sound then you can explore other options.

step 1: you need to install a step up transformer in it. so you need to do some research and figure out which trans will suit your cart best. viren could help you with this. you can then import the relevant trans and have viren fit it in.

step 2: the tweaking with resistors you're talking about, viren can install a resistor in the phonoamp itself so you can put in different resistors to change loading and thus experiment. from the equation in the SUT page on analogdept.com you can feed in resistor figure and find out if it'll be a good match. again viren would be able to guide you on this and supply the resistors also am guessing. i have got this option installed so i can swap out the resistor if i choose to change carts later on. highly flexible and customisable loading!

i'd recommend against putting in resistors and listening. rather a more long term and better approach would be to figure out the exact resistor/step up trans required and get that one installed so your cart performs optimally. when you've done this and still don't like the sound then perhaps your tastes would be better suited with another family of carts. no point forcing a cart to sound like something its not and the world of carts is huge to explore there will be a 'perfect' one for you you could sell the cart easily on audiogon and get another one, but do set resistors by science for the cart you're using

step 3: do not dismiss the phonostage without the telefunkens. the tubes you're currently using are no match for these at all.

all in all, optimise your current set up before buying something new. you've got a fantastic set up now really don't need anything else for a while at least!

by the way how did you get the phono load to 1k ohm? just with the resistor and no step up transformer?

regards

edit: if you want a switch for different loads instead of switching out resistors am sure viren could do that too in your current amp.

 

[ajinkya]

Query on whether this used turntable is worth the price:
MusicHall MMF turntable with brand new Ortofon OM-10 cartridge for around Rs 9000. Owner will get back to me with exact series for the turntable. Is this a "Don't let go!" deal or more of a "Decent, don't lose sleep" or "Stay away" thing?
I've heard good things about Music Hall in general, regarding turntables.

I'm helping set up a source for a desktop system for friend. He insists on a vinyl source but doesn't want to spend too much. Inputs appreciated.

Thanks,
Jinx.

 

[stevieboy]

Query on whether this used turntable is worth the price:
MusicHall MMF turntable with brand new Ortofon OM-10 cartridge for around Rs 9000. Owner will get back to me with exact series for the turntable. Is this a "Don't let go!" deal or more of a "Decent, don't lose sleep" or "Stay away" thing?
I've heard good things about Music Hall in general, regarding turntables.

I'm helping set up a source for a desktop system for friend. He insists on a vinyl source but doesn't want to spend too much. Inputs appreciated.

Thanks,
Jinx.

i'd say it's a sweet deal! once you get the model number do google for reviews on the same. musichall used to be made in the same factory as project guessing it still is. well regarded tables i'd say dont let it get away! of course depends on how it's running

regards

 

[ajinkya]

Thanks for the quick response stevieboy. I'll be taking my friend to audition the table before buying. Any non-obvious things to watch out for during inspection?

 

[malvai]

+ 1 to stevieboy's opinion. most entry to mid level music hall, rega and NAD TTs are rebadged Project TTs!

(Not all, but most.)

Music Hall on its own as well has a fairly good reputation for putting out decent sounding tables. Its a worth it price. grab it!

 

[Rajiv]

Dynavector T75

Hi Mahiruha,

Congrats.on your new TT.It looks lovley.

A friend has the Dynavector P75 phono stage and I have listened to it/used it in my system often.In my opinion Virens Phono stage is as good if not better than the Dynavector.

I do not know what version of Viren's phono stage you have but I suggest you give it more time and try to get it to match your cartridge before looking at other phono stages.

Viren,if I am not mistaken uses the Cinemag transformers.If you need flexibility to match a wide range of cartridges you should look at the Fidelity Research FRT4 SUT.

Fidelity Research FRT-4 Step Up Transformer, Japan made - eBay (item 350305793855 end time Apr-06-10 02:00:39 PDT)

You will find them a little less expensive at HIFIDO

FRT-4 fidelity-research HiFi-Do McIntosh/JBL/audio-technica/Jeff Rowland/Accuphase

There is one available here at a reasonable price.

http://hifitradingstation.com/details.asp?productid=1121

I have been using one for the past 20+ years and it is very good.

You might find this article useful.

Step-Ups and MC Cartridges | The Secrets of a Successful Marriage | Vinyl Engine

Regards
Rajiv

 

[stevieboy]

Thanks for the quick response stevieboy. I'll be taking my friend to audition the table before buying. Any non-obvious things to watch out for during inspection?

hi ajinkya,

well the table ought to rotate smoothly, and not wavy when viewed from front at eye level, hold the tonearm and swing it towards the spindle it should move smoothly, the motor shouldn't be noisy. belts you can always buy a new one ditto for cart but the cart's new so no worries on that front. a very worthwhile addition would be a speedbox. project makes one for bout 5k not sure if it will fit the musichall you can ask a project dealer. generally it ought to be in good condition.

regards

 

[mahiruha]

mahiruha,

what i'd strongly recommend is that you stick with the lyrita phonostage cos you haven't really explored it or set it up to match your cart. if you do this and still don't like the sound then you can explore other options.

step 1: you need to install a step up transformer in it. so you need to do some research and figure out which trans will suit your cart best. viren could help you with this. you can then import the relevant trans and have viren fit it in.

step 2: the tweaking with resistors you're talking about, viren can install a resistor in the phonoamp itself so you can put in different resistors to change loading and thus experiment. from the equation in the SUT page on analogdept.com you can feed in resistor figure and find out if it'll be a good match. again viren would be able to guide you on this and supply the resistors also am guessing. i have got this option installed so i can swap out the resistor if i choose to change carts later on. highly flexible and customisable loading!

i'd recommend against putting in resistors and listening. rather a more long term and better approach would be to figure out the exact resistor/step up trans required and get that one installed so your cart performs optimally. when you've done this and still don't like the sound then perhaps your tastes would be better suited with another family of carts. no point forcing a cart to sound like something its not and the world of carts is huge to explore there will be a 'perfect' one for you you could sell the cart easily on audiogon and get another one, but do set resistors by science for the cart you're using

step 3: do not dismiss the phonostage without the telefunkens. the tubes you're currently using are no match for these at all.

all in all, optimise your current set up before buying something new. you've got a fantastic set up now really don't need anything else for a while at least!

by the way how did you get the phono load to 1k ohm? just with the resistor and no step up transformer?

regards

edit: if you want a switch for different loads instead of switching out resistors am sure viren could do that too in your current amp.

Hi Steven,
thanks for your detailed explanation. The way the phono load is changed to 1 K ohm is simply adding 2 1k resistor to the rca cable done by Cranky and I just attached this cable to the phono pre amp. I was not too sure if a step up trasnsformer was needed since there is no problem with gain. The gain produced by the pre amp with this cartridge is very good. Now I need to read up to know what this step up transformer does. I have gone through Vinyl engine article on SUT and MC cartridges and realized a casual reading won't do needs a serious reading to understand what this all about.
Two lines from the article kind of convincing me that a SUT is necessary.
"Those that produce voltages ranging from .5 to 1.0 mV are generally called medium output " Since my cartridge is 1 mv output so it is a MOMC cartridge.
The article also says "Medium output moving coil cartridges also require a step-up but of a lesser ratio" so I think and also you suggested that I indeed need a stepup transformer. Now the question is it a prerequisite for any phono stage I use or some phono stages comes with a built in SUT.
Let do some technical reading to find out what kind of SUT is needed for my cartridge. Those huge tables look bit ominous but I guess it is going to be a nice project for the weekend.
Thanks.

 

[mahiruha]

Hi Mahiruha,

Congrats.on your new TT.It looks lovley.

A friend has the Dynavector P75 phono stage and I have listened to it/used it in my system often.In my opinion Virens Phono stage is as good if not better than the Dynavector.

I do not know what version of Viren's phono stage you have but I suggest you give it more time and try to get it to match your cartridge before looking at other phono stages.

Viren,if I am not mistaken uses the Cinemag transformers.If you need flexibility to match a wide range of cartridges you should look at the Fidelity Research FRT4 SUT.

Fidelity Research FRT-4 Step Up Transformer, Japan made - eBay (item 350305793855 end time Apr-06-10 02:00:39 PDT)

You will find them a little less expensive at HIFIDO

FRT-4 fidelity-research HiFi-Do McIntosh/JBL/audio-technica/Jeff Rowland/Accuphase

There is one available here at a reasonable price.

http://hifitradingstation.com/details.asp?productid=1121

I have been using one for the past 20+ years and it is very good.

You might find this article useful.

Step-Ups and MC Cartridges | The Secrets of a Successful Marriage | Vinyl Engine

Regards
Rajiv

Hi Rajiv,
Thanks for the link you have provided. I have read it and figured out how to choose a step up transformer. I am bit confused about the fact if I really need a SUT or not since I already have sufficient gain. Well the calculation to match my cartridge is as follows.
My cartridge specification is
Type: High Output Moving Coil Cartridge with Flux damper and Softened magnetism
Output Voltage: 1.0mV (at 1KHz, 5cm/sec.)
Frequency Response: 20 -20,000Hz (+-2dB)
Channel Separation: 25dB (at 1KHz)
Channel Balance: 1.0dB (at 1KHz)
Compliance: 12x10 -6 cm/dyne
Impedance: R=65ohms
Stylus: Nude diamond, Perfect elliptical
Cantilever: 6mm length hard aluminum pipe
Tracking Force: 1.8-2.2 grams
Recommended Load: Great Than 1,000ohms
Weight: 8.6g

So three key data is
The output Level = 1mv
The internal impedance = 65 ohms
The load impedance = 1000 ohms

Now the paper says load impedance should be tried between (1000 + 10*65) or between 1000 ohms and 1650 ohms depending if the system is brighter or neutral.
Lets say I take the value to be 1500 Ohms to which the cartridge should be loaded.

Now from the entire list of Step up transformers provided in the list I could see that only one matches my cartridge that is Bryston TF1 which has a gain of 16.5 db and matches with the cartridge with internal impedance of 40-250 ohms.

The step up factor is = 10^ [(gain in db)/20] = 10^ [(16.5)/20] =6.7
Natural impedance = 47000/ (6.7^2) = 1047 ohms which is less than 1500 ohms
47000 ohms is the load impedance offered by my Phono preamp
In this case I see that to obtain Natural impedance of 1500 ohms the load impedance of the Phono preamp should be 1500*6.7^2 = 67335 ohms
From my understanding the load impedance of the MM input needs to be modified.
For that at the MM entry point the 47K ohm resistors should be replaced by 67K ohm resistors.
The other option is to get a SUT with step up factor of 5 but in that case I need to reduce the 47 K ohm load by doing some resistor tuning. But I dont know if a SUT with step up factor 5 is readily available. Please suggest which is better option and if it is the way to go.
The specification for my Phono stage is

Tubes line stage 5687 (1 nos)
Tubes Phono stage 6N2P-EV (2Nos)
Tube Rectifier 5Z4G (1 Nos)

Thanks,
Mahiruha.

 

[ajinkya]

Update: Somebody else snagged it Oh well...I'll keep looking out for music hall tables from now on. :-(

 

[stevieboy]

shucks ajinkya, music hall tts are pretty rare in india. that was a truly good deal on a reputed brand, that's why i replied so fast. all the best for finding another good table!

 

[stevieboy]

mahiruha,

Audio Asylum Thread Printer

the relevant para

"Hagerman Picolo head amp with my Cornet II phono preamp. I much preferred the CineMag, both with the Denon DL-103 and the Dynavector 20XL. It was quieter, yet more dynamic than the active head amp. On the CineMag, the 150-Ohm tap was just about right for the 103 and the 37.5 was spot on for the Dyna. I sold the Picolo and still have the CineMag and Cornet II."

yours is MOMC (1v) not HOMC (2.5v like mine) as you've currently mentioned. you did mention it right as MOMC in an earlier post the cinemag thanks grubyhalo btw for jogging my memory. rajiv mentioned it too. well the cinemag has two winding options check its specs on the cinemag website. looks like all you need to do is send the phono back to viren to fix!

regards

 

[mahiruha]

mahiruha,

Audio Asylum Thread Printer

the relevant para

"Hagerman Picolo head amp with my Cornet II phono preamp. I much preferred the CineMag, both with the Denon DL-103 and the Dynavector 20XL. It was quieter, yet more dynamic than the active head amp. On the CineMag, the 150-Ohm tap was just about right for the 103 and the 37.5 was spot on for the Dyna. I sold the Picolo and still have the CineMag and Cornet II."

yours is MOMC (1v) not HOMC (2.5v like mine) as you've currently mentioned. you did mention it right as MOMC in an earlier post the cinemag thanks grubyhalo btw for jogging my memory. rajiv mentioned it too. well the cinemag has two winding options check its specs on the cinemag website. looks like all you need to do is send the phono back to viren to fix!

regards

Hi Steven,
thanks for the pointer. Actually Dynavector 20X has 3 types of cartridges. They are 2.8mv , 0.3mv and mine is 1mv. What I find from cinemag website is they have two options with step up factors 16 and 30 respectively.
CineMag SUT Step up transformer moving coil cartridges CM-QEE 3440-A CMQEE 3440A MC SUT Cine Mag Step-Up for moving-coil stepup bob's devices bob capn-bob device phono cartridge electric head amp peerless altec 4722 15095 western transformers
Even if I go for 16 option I will have a output voltage of 16mv which is too high since it needs to be in the range 2.5 -10 mv.
Also the problem is I can't find locate a Bryston TF1 which is up for sale.The only place where I found some step up transformers with step up factor 5 is
K & K Audio - Moving Coil Cartridge Step-up Transformers
They have this LL9226 which has step up gain of 5 and can be calibrated to my need. if you come across any SUT with step up gain between 5-8 please let me know.
Thanks.

 

[Rajiv]

Hi Mahiruha,

I am bit confused about the fact if I really need a SUT or not since I already have sufficient gain.

If you have enough gain and the sound quality is good then you do not need a SUT.

Now from the entire list of Step up transformers provided in the list I could see that only one matches my cartridge that is Bryston TF1 which has a gain of 16.5 db and matches with the cartridge with internal impedance of 40-250 ohms.

The article is quite old and the list of transformers is not comprehensive,the author has listed only those he had data for. Cinemag used to wind custom transformers,I am not sure if they offer this service now.

The LL9226 you mentioned is a good option if you decide to go for a SUT.The resistors used to adjust the loading should be of good quality.


Your Dynavector 20X is a very good cartridge,my friend uses the low output version with the Dynavector P75 phonostage on his Musical Fidelity M1 TT .

Regards
Rajiv

 

[stevieboy]

ah mahiruha, yes yours is not the ultra low version i got mixed up in the excitement thought the solution was at hand! though i saw only two versions on the needledoctor site and not the higher 2.8v output one! the k&k is a reputed name it ought to be good! will keep my eyes peeled.

of course the other option is to sell the cart you have, get the lower output one and then use the cinemag. the lower output one's supposed to be better quality due to the thinner coils. since you havent used your cart much you will get a better deal on it than after its been used for a while. only mentioning cos you were checking carts out and seemed to be interested in experimenting...

regards

 

[Rajiv]

Hi,

Steven,the 20X Mahiruha has is designed for the VPI.

VPI/DYNAVECTOR 20X-H SPECIAL VERSION MC CARTRIDGE 1.0mV - elusivedisc

The Dynavector 20X is a very good cartridge.I have listened to it often at my friends place.It is a little bright to start with but once the cartridge breaks in it is smooth and detailed.A little lean sounding (less body to the music than the Linn cartridges) but very good none the less.

Regards
Rajiv

 

[stevieboy]

mahiruha,

here's a solution.

using the cinemag with the 150 ohm tap.

R(Load_effective) = (47000 ohms / 150^2) = 2.088 ohms



(Vout / Vcart) = (R(Load_effective) / (R(Load_effective) + (Rcart)))

2.088/(2.088 + 65)= 0.0311

then multiply output voltage at the cartridge by 0.0311 to get voltage output as a function of the load resistor and then again by the turns ratio to see the voltage at the MM input. Or:

1 x 0.0311 = 0.0311mV
0.0311 x 150 = 4.665mV

and that my friend is smack in the middle of acceptable range!!! you're set mahiruha! all calculations as per the SUT page link analogdept

edit: the 4.665 v is what you'll be putting into the mm section of the phonostage so no need of any resistor tuning cables or resistor tweaking inside the amp! cart straight to cinemag on 150 turns setting and the trans is fixed inside the phonoamp so cable length is minimal too

 

[mahiruha]

mahiruha,

here's a solution.

using the cinemag with the 150 ohm tap.

R(Load_effective) = (47000 ohms / 150^2) = 2.088 ohms



(Vout / Vcart) = (R(Load_effective) / (R(Load_effective) + (Rcart)))

2.088/(2.088 + 65)= 0.0311

then multiply output voltage at the cartridge by 0.0311 to get voltage output as a function of the load resistor and then again by the turns ratio to see the voltage at the MM input. Or:

1 x 0.0311 = 0.0311mV
0.0311 x 150 = 4.665mV

and that my friend is smack in the middle of acceptable range!!! you're set mahiruha! all calculations as per the SUT page link analogdept

edit: the 4.665 v is what you'll be putting into the mm section of the phonostage so no need of any resistor tuning cables or resistor tweaking inside the amp! cart straight to cinemag on 150 turns setting and the trans is fixed inside the phonoamp so cable length is minimal too

Hi Steven,
your calculation is correct but it won't work for my cartridge simply because my Cartridge needs to see effective load of atleast 1500 ohms but in your case it is only 2.088 ohms. When we try and match a step up transformer with a MC cartridge two things we need to match the effective load and the output voltage. The output voltage is constant and solely dependent on the step up factor which simply the ratio of number of turns in the secondary coil divided by the number of turns in the primary coil.
Well that is my primary understanding I am not too sure how one SUT can offer the flexibility of having 3 different step up ratios.

So I need a step of transformer which has step up ratio of 5-8 to start with and then I need to match effective load on the cartridge by resistor tuning.
Actually I found a perfect product for my case but unfortunately I won't buy it for GBP 1800. But it clearly shows what I need. I will write an email to both cinemag and K&K to see if they can provide something similar.
Mcdatasheet
Here you can see that with 80K resistor loading my cartridge sees effective load of 1200 ohms which is just about perfect.
Thanks.

 

[Sidharth Trehan]

NOTE:
A little offtopic but just to remind everyone that we 'HiFiVision members' have a negotiated FLAT 10% discount on every order of USD250 and onwards with ELUSIVEDISC.COM
So pls ask me on how to claim it. While u place any order. It may seem less to some friends, but atleast its some saving in anycase.

Cheers
..

QUOTE=Rajiv;123546]Hi,

Steven,the 20X Mahiruha has is designed for the VPI.

VPI/DYNAVECTOR 20X-H SPECIAL VERSION MC CARTRIDGE 1.0mV - elusivedisc

The Dynavector 20X is a very good cartridge.I have listened to it often at my friends place.It is a little bright to start with but once the cartridge breaks in it is smooth and detailed.A little lean sounding (less body to the music than the Linn cartridges) but very good none the less.

Regards
Rajiv[/QUOTE]

 

[mahiruha]

Hi siddharth,
that's very good nws. If we are in vinyl world it seems elusivedisc is simply unavoidable. They have some wonderful things on offer both software and hardware.
Thanks.