Turntable
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Hi Steven,hi pratim,
stick to the projects. they build a range of tts and they build pretty good entry level tts. the debut has phono inbuilt but an outboard phono will be better. you can keep upgrading. i'd suggest giving the usual phonostages a miss and calling viren of this forum (lyrita audio) i've heard his solid state phonostage (bout 4k) and you sure as hell aint gonna get that level of sound at that price. and this praise is coming from a total tube gear lover so...
he sends you the equipment on trial and if you like it you keep it or return it paying shipping back. would strongly recommend you check him out last i heard he had parts for just a few solid phonostages left.
regards
Viren makes solid state phono stage that's a news to me.I would love to get one when I will have two TTs in my house. when you listened to it did you connect it straight to your 2A3SET amp?since you have experience with lot of phono pre how at compares with project phono pre, NAD phono pre and Cambridge audio phono pre at that price point.
Thanks.
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pratimbayal
Active Member
I checked about the ss phono stage with Viren. He can make it if ordered and he needs to get the parts from abroad since at present he dose not have all the parts.
Thanks
Thanks
hi mahiruha,
he started with solid state then moved on to better things
as pratimbayal's post indicates he's out of parts now but probably will make on order. would make a good match with your existing debut while you move the tube phono to your scout. as for impressions you know what i think of solid state
but this little fellow quite surprised me with the dynamics!!! yes it deserves three exclamation marks. and more surprising it wasnt even speced right ie. it was speced for his low output moving coil cart and i was using it with my 2.5 output mc cart. volume was a little lower though addressed by turning the amp up. yes i connected it straight to the set amp. havent heard nad or cambridge but have heard the project tube box (had it). i dont know how he does it, but viren's phono was extremely open, dynamic and fluid. it just sounded more 'alive'. it did have that solid state hardness compared to tubes gentleness but nevertheless HIGHLY recommended (from a tube lover so that should tell you something 
). let me put it this way, if you took away my tube phonostage and substituted his solid state one, i'd still be quite happy.if someone is buying an entry level phonostage you'd be nuts not to ask viren for a home trial.
regards
EDIT: if i remember you have viren's tube phonostage right? when you get the scout do get a pair of telefunken ecc83s from ebay. i'll give you the name of a good seller when you're ready to buy them. rajiv put me onto telefunkens and trust me these tubes will take the phonostage to a completely new level. these tubes deserve every bit of the reputation they have. guessing you're still running the 5751 stock tubes?
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pratimbayal
Active Member
Hi Steve
I am looking for pre amp . Brand in consideration is Lyrita and Operetta for my Operetta power . I tried an audition with Lyrita pre that Mahiruha lent me for a day. Since the gain was not matching I could not audition properly. However Viren might send a trial set to audition . I would also like to know about the improvement by adding Telefuken tube - what will be improved -detaling , tone ?? In that case I might consider that . Please let me know
Pratim
I am looking for pre amp . Brand in consideration is Lyrita and Operetta for my Operetta power . I tried an audition with Lyrita pre that Mahiruha lent me for a day. Since the gain was not matching I could not audition properly. However Viren might send a trial set to audition . I would also like to know about the improvement by adding Telefuken tube - what will be improved -detaling , tone ?? In that case I might consider that . Please let me know
Pratim
hi pratim,
do elaborate on what you meant by 'gain not matching'. the output voltage with your amp?
regarding the telefunkens, well you can read up on the net for more drool reviews but here's a basic one. extended treble, superb neutrality and tight bass. basically covers all the spectrum more neutrally than lets say a mullard. it just opens up the sound its like a tight space that's been expanded to fit everything comfortably with room for all instruments. you can save money by buying a non-telefunken badge tube eg fisher. they cost less that the tubes that have the diamond telefunken logo. the seller generally lists that the tube has a diamond in the base between the pins. that's a genuine telefunken. lemme know if you do decide to buy i can send you a good sellers link and surprisingly a lady
regards
edit: also, with ecc83s in place of the 5751, the hum practically disappears. also you can ask viren to match the output voltage to your power amp. am sure if you give the specs of your power amp he will tweak it to match better. do check.
oh i forgot, telefunkens come in smooth plates and ribbed plates. unlike you know what, in this case, smooth is better
perhaps rajiv can pitch in if he's reading this, since he was using them before me
do elaborate on what you meant by 'gain not matching'. the output voltage with your amp?
regarding the telefunkens, well you can read up on the net for more drool reviews but here's a basic one. extended treble, superb neutrality and tight bass. basically covers all the spectrum more neutrally than lets say a mullard. it just opens up the sound its like a tight space that's been expanded to fit everything comfortably with room for all instruments. you can save money by buying a non-telefunken badge tube eg fisher. they cost less that the tubes that have the diamond telefunken logo. the seller generally lists that the tube has a diamond in the base between the pins. that's a genuine telefunken. lemme know if you do decide to buy i can send you a good sellers link and surprisingly a lady
regards
edit: also, with ecc83s in place of the 5751, the hum practically disappears. also you can ask viren to match the output voltage to your power amp. am sure if you give the specs of your power amp he will tweak it to match better. do check.
oh i forgot, telefunkens come in smooth plates and ribbed plates. unlike you know what, in this case, smooth is better
perhaps rajiv can pitch in if he's reading this, since he was using them before me
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pratimbayal
Active Member
Hi Steve
Yes Viren will match gain/voltage of the pre with my power amp if I go for the Lyrita pre. He has confirmed me that yesterday. And I will go for Telefunken ECC83 for sure ( might take your help) , I went through net about this yesterday. I think Viren is using a pair of ECC83 for the phono and 5751 for the line level .This is just from the website. Can I replace all the tubes with Telefunken ECC83. I am zero at tecnicals so some question might be funny.
Thanks
Yes Viren will match gain/voltage of the pre with my power amp if I go for the Lyrita pre. He has confirmed me that yesterday. And I will go for Telefunken ECC83 for sure ( might take your help) , I went through net about this yesterday. I think Viren is using a pair of ECC83 for the phono and 5751 for the line level .This is just from the website. Can I replace all the tubes with Telefunken ECC83. I am zero at tecnicals so some question might be funny.
Thanks
Hello Steven,
I checked the manual of my pre amplifier it says " Passive RIAA equalizationis applied between two active gain stages using Russian 6N2p-EV low noise tubes. The loading can be customized for a specific cartridge." Hence I think I don't have the stock 5751 tubes you mentioned.Can they still be replaced with telefunken ecc83s that you suggested. Also I noticed there are some tubes available with gold plated pins do they offer any significent performence jump.
Just noticed my rectifier tube is also different it is 5Z4G rather than EZ80 - BEL . The gold plated ones are http://www.boiaudioworks.com/5751
I will have a chat with Viren and let you know.
Thanks.
I checked the manual of my pre amplifier it says " Passive RIAA equalizationis applied between two active gain stages using Russian 6N2p-EV low noise tubes. The loading can be customized for a specific cartridge." Hence I think I don't have the stock 5751 tubes you mentioned.Can they still be replaced with telefunken ecc83s that you suggested. Also I noticed there are some tubes available with gold plated pins do they offer any significent performence jump.
Just noticed my rectifier tube is also different it is 5Z4G rather than EZ80 - BEL . The gold plated ones are http://www.boiaudioworks.com/5751
I will have a chat with Viren and let you know.
Thanks.
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hi pratim,
viren uses a rectifier tube and 5751 tubes and a 5687 tube buffer for the phonostage. the ecc83 tubes are a replacement for the 5751 with 30% more gain. i dont know what the tube configuration is for the phono cum preamp model but am guessing the phono part in the amp has the 5751/ecc83 tubes. just checked his website he mentions ecc83/5751 nos tubes. when i had bought, he was offering only 5751 tubes. don't know if he offers ecc83 as an option or its just an indication that you can use these tubes in place of the 5751. you can check with him. i have the only phonostage model since i dont need a preamp.
regards
viren uses a rectifier tube and 5751 tubes and a 5687 tube buffer for the phonostage. the ecc83 tubes are a replacement for the 5751 with 30% more gain. i dont know what the tube configuration is for the phono cum preamp model but am guessing the phono part in the amp has the 5751/ecc83 tubes. just checked his website he mentions ecc83/5751 nos tubes. when i had bought, he was offering only 5751 tubes. don't know if he offers ecc83 as an option or its just an indication that you can use these tubes in place of the 5751. you can check with him. i have the only phonostage model since i dont need a preamp.
regards
??? this is a new one to me! even his website doesnt mention russian 6np-ev tubes for the phonostage unless its a replacement for the 5751s...?
re gold plated pins never tried one but they like gold plated pins on connectors am guessing...
regards
Hello Steven,
had a chat with Viren. He told me that he made this changes from listening impression. This 6N2P is also a 9 pin high mu double triode tube. The 5751 is of similar nature but I can't replace it without the necessary modding. Actually I was looking at a tube website there I found so many different version of ECC83 Tube DataSheets
Bit confused how to know which upgrade will be the best.
Thanks.
had a chat with Viren. He told me that he made this changes from listening impression. This 6N2P is also a 9 pin high mu double triode tube. The 5751 is of similar nature but I can't replace it without the necessary modding. Actually I was looking at a tube website there I found so many different version of ECC83 Tube DataSheets
Bit confused how to know which upgrade will be the best.
Thanks.
hi mahiruha,
the 6n2p tube has a lower gain than ecc83 i think. also it operates in parallel compared to ecc83s which operate in series though dont ask me to explain this though! tech stuff bores me to death and i avoid it like the plague
if you cant swap in an ecc 83 tube in place of the 6n2p you might want to ask viren to do the necessary changes so you can. will certainly be worth it. though am guessing the specs are the same, he's just found this tube and found it to be better than the 5751, don't think he'd change the basic circuit though of course i may be wrong! did you ask him about replacing? cos the ecc83s are a drop in replacement for 5751 no modding needed. or are you referring to ecc83 swapping in place of the 6n2p?
the tube data sheet wont be of much help. just enter mullard ecc83/12ax7 and telefunken ecc83/12ax7, amperex bugle boy and you'll find websites selling these tubes. some of them have a good description on qualities of the tubes. audiogon in the sell section too has it. in general mullards are supposed to be warm with good midrange, the telefunkens simply do everything to perfection.
https://www.tubeworld.com/12ax7.htm
12AX7 Tubes in Stock
there you go
regards
the 6n2p tube has a lower gain than ecc83 i think. also it operates in parallel compared to ecc83s which operate in series though dont ask me to explain this though! tech stuff bores me to death and i avoid it like the plague
if you cant swap in an ecc 83 tube in place of the 6n2p you might want to ask viren to do the necessary changes so you can. will certainly be worth it. though am guessing the specs are the same, he's just found this tube and found it to be better than the 5751, don't think he'd change the basic circuit though of course i may be wrong!
did you ask him about replacing? cos the ecc83s are a drop in replacement for 5751 no modding needed. or are you referring to ecc83 swapping in place of the 6n2p?the tube data sheet wont be of much help. just enter mullard ecc83/12ax7 and telefunken ecc83/12ax7, amperex bugle boy and you'll find websites selling these tubes. some of them have a good description on qualities of the tubes. audiogon in the sell section too has it. in general mullards are supposed to be warm with good midrange, the telefunkens simply do everything to perfection.
https://www.tubeworld.com/12ax7.htm
12AX7 Tubes in Stock
there you go
regards
Hi Steven,
you are really making me greedy o get that tube. I am glad tomorrow will be a new year. so some fresh budget allocation to cater musical needs. Well actually both the tubes has 9 pins but the pins which are connected to the heater has different orientation. So the heater wire connection to pin sockets need to be changed. Sounds pretty simple. If needed to be done I will get it done here in Calcutta.
Thanks.
you are really making me greedy o get that tube.
I am glad tomorrow will be a new year. so some fresh budget allocation to cater musical needs. Well actually both the tubes has 9 pins but the pins which are connected to the heater has different orientation. So the heater wire connection to pin sockets need to be changed. Sounds pretty simple. If needed to be done I will get it done here in Calcutta.Thanks.
ah i get it. probably can do it yourself under viren's guidance if you're even remotely handy with a soldering iron. go get the telefunken smooth plate ecc83. you won't regret it! not much, bout 5-6k landed cost. $100 average price non telefunken brand (fisher/dynaco etc) plus shipping. after a vpi scout...
ah i get it. probably can do it yourself under viren's guidance if you're even remotely handy with a soldering iron. go get the telefunken smooth plate ecc83. you won't regret it! not much, bout 5-6k landed cost. $100 average price non telefunken brand (fisher/dynaco etc) plus shipping. after a vpi scout...
I have never touched a soldering iron in my life. But i guess won't be difficult to locate somebody in Calcutta. seems to be a nice project. Lets see how it goes. Since you are saying this new tube will offer more gain I am thinking it wll be a definite advantage with the low output cartridge.
Thanks.
hi mahiruha,
well your step up transformer will bring levels up to normal. and from there you'll find extra gain compared to the 5751s. so practically you get as much extra gain as you would with a normal (edit: mc) output cartridge. generally mc inputs in phonostages have more gain (60db) compared to lower gain (40db) for normal carts that output a higher voltage. those db figures were from my project tube box, its pretty much par for the course.
regards
well your step up transformer will bring levels up to normal. and from there you'll find extra gain compared to the 5751s. so practically you get as much extra gain as you would with a normal (edit: mc) output cartridge. generally mc inputs in phonostages have more gain (60db) compared to lower gain (40db) for normal carts that output a higher voltage. those db figures were from my project tube box, its pretty much par for the course.
regards
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viren bakhshi
Well-Known Member
Guys,
Noise picked up by the tubes and amplified along with the signal, has always been a problem in high gain preamps. When you are asking for a signal gain of up to 1000, as in phono preamps, noise can become very intrusive. I suppose I have struggled with this, making phono preamp design really challenging!
First started with 6SL7's, beat my head a lot, and finally gave up because they were so microphonic. Moved to the inferior ECC83's because of their lower noise characteristics. Or so I thought. The BEL ECC83's were bad, very variable and noisy. Next up were the BEL 5751's, built to a tighter spec. Much better, though I took a hit in the gain. Of course, imported ECC83's and 5751's turned out to be much better - tubes by GE and Siemens. And now, as Stevieboy has experienced, the Telefunkens. But, boy, do you pay for them!
So, I was on a lookout for affordable alternates. Once I entered the Russian stable, primarily for the big 6C33C-B, other tubes came up. The Russian 6N2P is almost an equivalent to the ECC83, with similar characteristics and gain. A double triode, independent sections, and shielded to boot! This has worked out really well in the phono stage, being the lowest noise tube I've used so far. And it sounds good too. The crux is, that out of the 9 pins, one pin is used for the shield, to go to ground. The orientation of the triode sections is identical, but the heater connections are different from the ECC83. So, you can't plug and play! The change is easy enough to make though - requires a bit of soldering.
Current Lyrita Phono preamps are using the Russian 6N2P-EV (a longer life version). If you really want to roll tubes, I'll wire the preamp for ECC83's; then it's up to you to obtain premium versions.
Gain, mu
ECC83 100
6N2P 100
5751 70
Regards,
Viren
Noise picked up by the tubes and amplified along with the signal, has always been a problem in high gain preamps. When you are asking for a signal gain of up to 1000, as in phono preamps, noise can become very intrusive. I suppose I have struggled with this, making phono preamp design really challenging!
First started with 6SL7's, beat my head a lot, and finally gave up because they were so microphonic. Moved to the inferior ECC83's because of their lower noise characteristics. Or so I thought. The BEL ECC83's were bad, very variable and noisy. Next up were the BEL 5751's, built to a tighter spec. Much better, though I took a hit in the gain. Of course, imported ECC83's and 5751's turned out to be much better - tubes by GE and Siemens. And now, as Stevieboy has experienced, the Telefunkens. But, boy, do you pay for them!
So, I was on a lookout for affordable alternates. Once I entered the Russian stable, primarily for the big 6C33C-B, other tubes came up. The Russian 6N2P is almost an equivalent to the ECC83, with similar characteristics and gain. A double triode, independent sections, and shielded to boot! This has worked out really well in the phono stage, being the lowest noise tube I've used so far. And it sounds good too. The crux is, that out of the 9 pins, one pin is used for the shield, to go to ground. The orientation of the triode sections is identical, but the heater connections are different from the ECC83. So, you can't plug and play! The change is easy enough to make though - requires a bit of soldering.
Current Lyrita Phono preamps are using the Russian 6N2P-EV (a longer life version). If you really want to roll tubes, I'll wire the preamp for ECC83's; then it's up to you to obtain premium versions.
Gain, mu
ECC83 100
6N2P 100
5751 70
Regards,
Viren
reignofchaos
Well-Known Member
Viren do you have any leftover good quality ECC83s which you could part with? I need a good pair. One of the tubes in my phono pre seems to be on its last legs.
viren bakhshi
Well-Known Member
Hi roc,
I'm almost out of imported ECC83's and 5751's. I've been after my tube guy in Delhi to find more for me. He's pretty old, and can only be pushed so much.
As soon as I get some, I'll let you know.
Regards,
Viren
I'm almost out of imported ECC83's and 5751's. I've been after my tube guy in Delhi to find more for me. He's pretty old, and can only be pushed so much.
As soon as I get some, I'll let you know.
Regards,
Viren
i have a pair of mullards which i've been looking to dispose of. pm me if you want em. they're branded fisher new york or something like that. both have the mandatory codes at the bottom. british made.
regards
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