USB Cable type AB recommendation

[gobble]

EMI can induce jitter.

IEEE Xplore : Analysis and measurement of timing jitter induced by radiated EMI noise...'

Therefore a Cable can induce more jitter if its not braided correctly, it seems


Agreed on the points about buffering in computer systems, the point of spending on cables is that given an already jittery source of the signal, every attempt should be made to reduce it and prevent it from increasing. Of course everything has a price/performance barrier.

I was thinking of getting the wireworld starlight 6 but now that an MX emi suppressor product has been revealed, I am tempted to try that with an el-cheapo cable.

Edit: Decided on the BJ Belden 1694A with Canare connectors instead.

--G0bble

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

@Thad, what does your article say that "proves" your point?

That you can't add jitter to jitter to jitter and end up with three times as much jitter is the point. The guy did it with DAT tape to DAT tape, over multiple generations. Yes, it's an old article, and now-old-fashioned technology, which is probably even better at proving the point.

 

[gobble]

That you can't add jitter to jitter to jitter and end up with three times as much jitter is the point. The guy did it with DAT tape to DAT tape, over multiple generations. Yes, it's an old article, and now-old-fashioned technology, which is probably even better at proving the point.

Oh I was taking about delay at an instance in time - that can aggregate from transport to transmission to DAC making the DAC read the sample before it has arrived as seen in that stereophile article

Enough to reduce a listening session to less than stellar experience.

--G0bble

 

[jls001]

Fantastic. And to add to that, the medium and method of transmission will thus make a difference, right?

To try and answer this specific question without a thought to how it relates to the rest of the thread, 'cause I honestly don't know, the medium decides the loss that the signal suffers. To give an extreme example, a satellite signal sent from one point of the earth and received at another point via a geostationary satellite, is about 220 dB down on the original signal. Think of the stringent amplification requirements to bring that signal back to anything close to useful. For reference, an MC phono pre amplifies the signal to about 65-75 dB. That's still a full 145 dB too less, and the signal wouldn't begin to show up even on the noise floor.

If we are to assume method to mean the combination of modulation scheme, forward error correction scheme, etc, used, then the method usually makes a difference in the throughput of the link. Again, to cite a satellite example, an MCPC (multichannel per carrier) carrier for modern digital satellite TV using MPEG4 compression, DVB-S2 digital video broadcasting-satellite standard, and 8PSK modulation will be able to eke out twice the bandwidth from MPEG4 compared to MPEG2 compression, another 30% odd gain from using DVB-S2 instead of DVB-S, and 100% gain from using 8PSK than QPSK. This is for the same qualitative video quality.

OK, that was deep:lol: and I still don't know how that relates to the integrity of data transmission over an USB cable, whether with clear or smoked jacket. But I suspect it has to do with the jitter. IMHO, using an USB port to convey audio data is still in its infancy. However, every manufacturer worth their Ohno Continuous Cast copper cables seemed to have grasped the significance and potential. A good thing, as hopefully it will ensure that there will be rapid development in this area and we will no longer debate such trivialties anymore. Or would we?

 

[prankey]

EMI can induce jitter.

IEEE Xplore : Analysis and measurement of timing jitter induced by radiated EMI noise...'

Therefore a Cable can induce more jitter if its not braided correctly, it seems


Agreed on the points about buffering in computer systems, the point of spending on cables is that given an already jittery source of the signal, every attempt should be made to reduce it and prevent it from increasing. Of course everything has a price/performance barrier.

I was thinking of getting the wireworld starlight 6 but now that an MX emi suppressor product has been revealed, I am tempted to try that with an el-cheapo cable.

Edit: Decided on the BJ Belden 1694A with Canare connectors instead.

--G0bble

To avoid EMIs, you just need Iron cores and run the cable around them. Again, you seems to be ASSUMING that the cheapest cable might be bad in shielding the EMIs (especially those with ferrite cores at both ends) and preserving the original. I don't even make such assumptions in ANALOG application! For digital, I start with the cheapest available and test the integrity. If I don't see any performance or quality issues with the cheapest ones, I would never even THINK of spending a rupee extra! For analog, I try a cheap and decent built one with thicker wires and test them. If I find the quality acceptable, I will keep them and try testing the more expensive ones if I get a hand on them. For me, that is the wisest choice to make as I have always been satisfied with the performance on a VFM buy instead of spending on something more speculative than logically real!!!

 

[theironhorse]

sidvee please comment that you bought a cable and its working fine.. else we might reach the point.. for the re-designing of the complete USB thing...

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Oh I was taking about delay at an instance in time - that can aggregate from transport to transmission to DAC making the DAC read the sample before it has arrived as seen in that stereophile article

Enough to reduce a listening session to less than stellar experience.

--G0bble

But the point is they don't.

And you are making a huge assumption that the actual sound as represented by that diagram would sound bad!

I'm not saying it wouldn't, but you can't say that, oh woe, there are some ideal lines here, and some others, and that just must make for lousy sound! It gets a bit like a Dilbert cartoon!

Did you notice that, going back two steps, to the SoS article, they gave great, illustrative sound clips for much of the stuff they talked about. Looks like they didn't think jitter was worth bothering to do that for.

If anyone does come across any actually sound samples of jittered sound, do post them. I'd like to know what we're on about too!

 

[sidvee]

sidvee please comment that you bought a cable and its working fine.. else we might reach the point.. for the re-designing of the complete USB thing...

Actually I have not yet bought the cable as I am leaning more towards a USB bridge at this stage - there seems to be a majority amount of users who feel that this option is better than the USB direct option for the Ayon Cd2s. I can get one for $199 (msb tech) so I am on the fence. Will decide next week and place the order. I will revisit the USB option later. Meanwhile I will try my elcheapo cable.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The USB Bridge is a new concept to me. Can you explain, or give a link?

 

[baijuxavior]

The USB Bridge is a new concept to me. Can you explain, or give a link?

Bridge | Halide Design

 

[manoj.p]

Rather than try all these exotic devices, why don't you just get a sound card with digital co-axial out? After all, the bridge is just an USB to SPDIF transformer.

 

[sidvee]

The USB Bridge is a new concept to me. Can you explain, or give a link?

Thad - from what little I know - this allows conversion of USB to SPDIF such that a coax cable can be used. Various option/implementations exists such as the link provided by baiju, but m2 tech hi-face appears to be the best VFM. I have heard it in action and the sound was indistinguishable from CD and on high res tracks it sounded awesome as well.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[sidvee]

Rather than try all these exotic devices, why don't you just get a sound card with digital co-axial out? After all, the bridge is just an USB to SPDIF transformer.

Manoj I plan to use a hp mini laptop as a source initially. Not sure how to add a soundcard to this. Down the road I plan to get a macbook or a mac mini and same concern there. Anyways I am not sure if the m2 tech can be classified as exotic, it has been around for a while - tons of reviews from professional reviewers as well as regular users, and IMO if an item is available on Amazon.com it can hardly be called exotic, can it:lol:
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

How to add a sound card to a laptop Echo Audio. High-repute company. up to semi-pro interfaces. It is their Audiofire2 that has been providing me with hours of endless "fun" fighting with Ubuntu over it. Of course, with Windows, it would ...just work

USB Bridge... OK, talking conversion USB to SPDIF. Yes, I've come across such things. Then, SPDIF to... what? After over a hundred posts about this and that, I've forgotten what your original connectivity requirement was! OK... I'll go back to post #1 and find out . Before doing that, off-the-cuff response is that, if you can go straight to your output device with USB, then why bother doing what is just (?) a protocol/medium change on the way?

 

[sidvee]

Before doing that, off-the-cuff response is that, if you can go straight to your output device with USB, then why bother doing what is just (?) a protocol/medium change on the way?

Reason for that Thad, is that a lot of independent users without any stake in m2 tech. or other usb bridge companies, report that it sounds better SQ wise then running direct USB. In this case I have had first hand experience in comparing USB bridges to direct Cd sound, but, I admit that I have not personally done a 1 to 1 comparo with USB direct vs bridge.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[manoj.p]

something reminds me of the old saying -
char aane ki murgi, barah aane ka masala

no offence Sidvee, but couldn't resist. ;-) good luck with your quest for the best sound.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I am on the lookout for a decent 1m USB cable (type AB) for computer audio...

Sorry, but with 135 posts since then ... can you just remind where the other end of your USB cable was to be plugged?

 

[sidvee]

Just because I am planning to use a USB bridge does not mean that I have discarded the USB direct option because of the simple reason that option will always be available to me. The Ayon CD2s is an excellent player which IMO resides amongst the top few units upto $10k that I have heard, but (during the course of having started this thread) I read that users are not very enthused with its USB performance vs its dig. in option, so in the quest for best sound I am considering the bridge. Anyways I am planning to get an audioquest cinnamon USB cable as well for $58 from Amazon along with a m2 tech hiface usb bridge. BTW I have decided that I will have to bite the bullet and do the experiment of comparing different cables myself, but I am starting with a $60 cable to begin with, so as to limit my losses. Regardless thank you all for the wonderful posts, I consider myself significantly more enlightened now, about USB cables.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[santhosh]

Anyways I am planning to get an audioquest cinnamon USB cable as well for $58 from Amazon along with a m2 tech hiface usb bridge. BTW I have decided that I will have to bite the bullet and do the experiment of comparing different cables myself, but I am starting with a $60 cable to begin with, so as to limit my losses. Regardless thank you all for the wonderful posts, I consider myself significantly more enlightened now, about USB cables.
Cheers,
Sid

Hi Sid,
Please check with ROC on the m2tech as he uses the digital out of the M2Tech hiface -> AyonCD1S or Lyrita Pre->McCormack DNA125->Usher BE718 which is very similar to your chain especially the source part ....ofcourse yours is a AyonCD2S. I listened to his system a few weeks ago and really liked what the M2Tech->Ayon CD1S's DAC was capable of....in my very short audition.

 

[prankey]

But the point is they don't.

And you are making a huge assumption that the actual sound as represented by that diagram would sound bad!

I'm not saying it wouldn't, but you can't say that, oh woe, there are some ideal lines here, and some others, and that just must make for lousy sound! It gets a bit like a Dilbert cartoon!

Did you notice that, going back two steps, to the SoS article, they gave great, illustrative sound clips for much of the stuff they talked about. Looks like they didn't think jitter was worth bothering to do that for.

If anyone does come across any actually sound samples of jittered sound, do post them. I'd like to know what we're on about too!

They are looking to eliminate something which MIGHT BE a jitter! Jitters can NEVER come through USB cables as per the design!

Manoj I plan to use a hp mini laptop as a source initially. Not sure how to add a soundcard to this. Down the road I plan to get a macbook or a mac mini and same concern there. Anyways I am not sure if the m2 tech can be classified as exotic, it has been around for a while - tons of reviews from professional reviewers as well as regular users, and IMO if an item is available on Amazon.com it can hardly be called exotic, can it:lol:
Cheers,
Sid

WOW! So now in search of a "better" audio experience you wish to switch from ERROR CONTROLLED 4 wire USB protocol to a completely insecured Coaxial???

While I am happy using a Rs.10 or even Rs.5 wire to somehow transfer the voltage to my AVR to recognize the PCM audio without an issue, you are essentially looking to strip the error control mechanism and take the SAME PCM audio from the coaxial output! What exactly are you trying to do other than changing audio path???

And Coaxial audio is what you are looking for, there are UMPTEEN USB Sound cards available (some very high end with excellent DACs, DSPs within which will give you Coaxial audio). Infact if I am looking for the best quality audio through a sound card, I would NEVER bother about cable, but would ensure that I use the CHEAPEST sound card without any DSP which do not resample 44.1kHz audio. Other than that, I would use the cheapest card with cheapest cable which I KNOW would work PRECISELY 100% the way it should without any error correction or any other fancy tags!

something reminds me of the old saying -
char aane ki murgi, barah aane ka masala

no offence Sidvee, but couldn't resist. ;-) good luck with your quest for the best sound.

Absolutely, seems its another audiophile myth at its best! They seems to elevate themselves way beyond technology and science based on their perceptions!