USB Cable type AB recommendation

[Thad E Ginathom]

I have never trusted a PC clock --- for telling the time! :lol:

Well, actually, I do now, because most OSs will reset the TOD clock against an ntp server on a regular basis.

 

[theironhorse]

man.. this is goin good. i am watching this thread everyday... sid .. buddy.. m sure you enjoyin exploring new stages of music everyday.....

 

[gobble]

And then there is this argument

"The USB argument comes down to jitter management. It goes as follows. In synchronous mode the device is the clock master. In adaptive mode the computer is the clock master. Either way works fine if correct design principles are followed. Here is the tricky part that often gets omitted. No matter which side is the source of the clock (PC or DAC), the two devices are still connected by the USB cable. The digital data on that USB cable is always irregular because the computer is involved. Computers do many things at once and end up sending data over USB in irregular intervals no matter who the clock master on the bus is. This irregularity causes jitter. So there is no jitter-free solution just like there is no dust-free house. Irregularity always creeps in. It must be actively managed.

So is it the cable or the computer?

"Here is where the asynchronous vs. adaptive argument breaks down. In either of the two clocking schemes, jitter is present during transmission. It's inevitable and okay if properly cleaned up prior to D/A conversion where it matters most. Neither clocking scheme is superior. Both are capable of performing well if you know how to reassemble the bits prior to the DAC. How do you actually do that? There are many ways. The oldest and simplest is buffering. Irregular data comes in, regular data goes out. The most important part is to make sure that samples leaving the buffer on the way to the DAC are clocked accurately.

More here: 6moons audio reviews: CEntrance DACmini CX

I have never trusted a PC clock --- for telling the time! :lol:

:lol:

Edit: Couldn't resist this ...

DACport employs JitterGuard, a proprietary two-stage clock management system that does just that. It cleans up the jitter on the USB bus so that samples are virtually jitter-free at the D/A conversion point."

JitterGuard dega SuperRin ki Chamatkaar! Aapke audio ki jitter ki safai karenga!!

--G0bble

 

[sidvee]

man.. this is goin good. i am watching this thread everyday... sid .. buddy.. m sure you enjoyin exploring new stages of music everyday.....

Absolutely theironhorse - this thread has proved so useful thanks to all the esteemed members who contributed - even the Critics on either side have had meaningful inputs:clapping: in the true spirit of a forum as distinguished as this!
Cheers,
Sid
PS: Just place my order for the Audioquest Cinnamon - $58 delivered from Amazon to my buddy who is carrying it back for me and I will have it in a couple of weeks. So thread mission accomplished (even more importantly where I saved $65-$70 by steering clear of the aq carbon after understanding more on USB cables from this thread) but hopefully knowledge dispersion will continue in many pathbreaking areas.

 

[theironhorse]

Absolutely theironhorse - this thread has proved so useful thanks to all the esteemed members who contributed - even the Critics on either side have had meaningful inputs:clapping: in the true spirit of a forum as distinguished as this!
Cheers,
Sid

lucky you.. get to do all that.. m still stuck in office...

 

[Hiten]

Well, I probably have worse ears than you, partly due to misuse in my youth and early employment in engineering factories. Certainly I was able to hear the things that EW said "everyone will be able to notice this" but as the demonstrations of masking moved up the scale, I probably lost the noise a bit earlier than younger, better ears would have. It was a fascinating article, and a very good example of how sound works, and what matters and what does not.

Have you tried the audio samples in the Sound-on-Sound article I linked to? The demonstration of dither is particularly fascination. You take a noise, that one might think undesirable, and it actually corrects an audio problem!

Sorry to reply late. My PC was down. A little offtopic, yes Thad read the link you have provided. Quantisation and dither point needs to be further explored. As a graphic designer I know dither. for example if we need to print a colour gradation from dark to light we add noise (little pixel artifcats hardly noticeable) so while printing it looks smooth. As for jitter wonder such tiny microsecond clock difference can make big difference. The point of my link was if we can not detect little less than moderate audio artifacts in sound sample jitter would be the least problem as high end AD-DA converters would have taken care of them long back. And I guess no one uses 30ft. long cables.
The problem with debates and discussion (specially cables ) is there is no honest attempt to understand or explain (depending on which side you are) the claimed difference. To add to the confusion subjective matter can not be measured.
Ontopic : I think a very well made budget cable should do the intended job.

Also want to add some Input and links by members in this thread are good and worth reading.

Regards

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Anyone who is interested in the debates in this thread should take a look (if they haven't already) at this one.

 

[sidvee]

Anyone who is interested in the debates in this thread should take a look (if they haven't already) at this one.

It is a humorous article for sure Thad, but these kind of articles are all over the net since the WWW has been in existence. Reminds me of the other articles that announce DBT trials where-in a $200 amp. beats a $5000 amp. statistically. Has this prevented the audio industry from growing since 1995 when this article was written? or has it prevented the sale of $10,000 analog cables - our very own Cadence bought Siltech (or a large chunk of it) which is primarlily an audio cable/power cable manufacturer (I think). Case in point Monster cable was a relatively small company in '95, is a giant now estimated sales $500 million, growing mostly on cable sales. It's founder Noel Lee is touted as a huge success story in US. So me thinks there is more to audio than what articles like these indicate - but just my humble opinion - or maybe I am just one of those silly misguided audiophools from the article:lol:, regardless I am happy with my system and that is what counts. BTW the live vs reproduced argument has been beaten to death (in almost all audio forums worldwide and has remained inconclusive as I understand) and neither has that prevented the home audio industry's growth.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

It's a light-hearted article, (which, of course,doesn't make it untrue) but move on to the later links to the stuff by Ethan Winer, which bring science, engineering and practicality very much to the fore, presented by a professional. I find his stuff an eye-opener.

We all know, for instance, that putting our speakers right in the corner (or our bookshelf speakers on, errr... bookshelves) is not going to get the best out of them --- but what is the point of sweating the millimetres when a change in the position of your head by just a few inches leaves you hearing something different!

There's a balance... somewhere!

 

[sidvee]

Yes Ethan Winer is a respected person in the audio field. I interacted with him extensively when I was researching audio treatments and he was very knowledgable and as I understand he is a musician as well.
At the same time Ray Kimber of Kimber cable is equally respected and having interacted with him on few occassions found him to be very knowledgable as well. So yes, I agree there is a balance to every thing and at least for me personally my pursuit has been what sounds good to me, no matter what experts on either side preach. Also I try to avoid so called experts who tell me that I am imagining things and try to blind me with science. I have learnt to accept that good sound while objective upto a certain extent is basically a subjective experience - almost like wine tasting, a wine taster/sommelier can tell you what a particular vintage tastes like to him, but certainly can't tell you whether you will like it or not - that will depend upon your palate and your taste.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Well, I guess I've moved from one camp to the other. I used to drool over the Russ Andrews catalogue (I even bought one of their mains leads) but now I don't think I would even open one!

I don't claim that my views represent the balance

 

[gobble]

Well, I guess I've moved from one camp to the other. I used to drool over the Russ Andrews catalogue (I even bought one of their mains leads) but now I don't think I would even open one!

I don't claim that my views represent the balance

So you are saying that the GBP49 powerkord made absolutely no difference to the SQ correct?

--G0bble

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Probably, even in my view at the time, not much.

Sequence of events:

1. I had a Sherwood Amplifier. I bought a Cyrus amplifier. The difference in the sound was not something I listened to, or searched out: it knocked me back.

2. You know the thought process, I'm sure many of us here have had it. Finding myself with that success, it would be nice to build on it. Give the amp its best chance, and all that sort of thing. I bought the power cable. At the time, I think I convinced myself that it made a difference. Now, I think I fooled myself. I've still got it, of course.

Oh, and come to think of it, I think it was 100. .

One of the problems is that we always have doubts. I have a doubt, just now, for instance. You might remember that I bought a pair of A-T ATH-AD900 headphones earlier in the year, and also that I got my Audiofire2 interface working properly with Linux. There I am, enjoying my music, when, suddenly, I think, "The headphones are good, but could they be better? The headphone output on the audiofire2, with volume control, is neat and convenient but what would a headphone amp do for the sound? Well, a quick browse tells me that a decent headphone amp is likely to cost as much as he headphones, so I just have to keep doubting for now.

 

[gobble]

While we are on the topic of Jitter

A Transport of Delight: CD Transport Jitter Page 4 | Stereophile.com

These measurements confirm the reports of critical listenerssee elsewhere in this issuethat digital interconnects sound different when connected in different directions

and

This suggests that <snip> or any poor-quality transmitterreacts with the cable's impedance to create jitter-inducing reflections in the interface. The directionality was probably caused by differences in the way the two RCA plugs were soldered to the cable; any bumps or discontinuities in the solder or RCA plug will cause a change in the characteristic impedance, which will cause higher-amplitude reflections in one direction than in the other. These reflections set up dynamically changing standing waves in the interface, introducing jitter in the embedded clock.

Food for thought
--G0bble

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

any bumps or discontinuities in the solder or RCA plug will cause a change in the characteristic impedance

Really? I'd better not try making my own digital cables then!

I made a couple of balanced TRS/TRS a month or so ago. Horrible job: it would make you cry to see the soldering.

 

[gobble]

Really? I'd better not try making my own digital cables then!

I made a couple of balanced TRS/TRS a month or so ago. Horrible job: it would make you cry to see the soldering.

With such a bad job, the cable is bound to be directionless!! hyeah: With crystals of solder splattered in all directions at the microscopic level

Congratulations!! Now to mass produce it with consistency and market it as the worlds first directionless cable

--G0bble

 

[cricfansd]

I some time wonder why we don't see all this Voodo science in video which has a higher bandwidth, faster clock and goes through multiple A-D and D-A to the display with flimsy PCB trace with el cheapo SMD parts. Yet every pixel that lies on the disc gets faithfully reproduced on the panel. May be it is just easy to verify these non-sense rather than pretend we can hear things.

 

[gobble]

I some time wonder why we don't see all this Voodo science in video which has a higher bandwidth, faster clock and goes through multiple A-D and D-A to the display with flimsy PCB trace with el cheapo SMD parts. Yet every pixel that lies on the disc gets faithfully reproduced on the panel. May be it is just easy to verify these non-sense rather than pretend we can hear things.

Is eyesight also similar to a psycho-acoustical phenomenon? Are perceptions of sharpness, vividness and colour accuracy influenced by psychology?

PS: I do suspect the "...any bumps or discontinuities in the solder or RCA plug will cause a change in the characteristic impedance, which will cause higher-amplitude reflections in one direction than in the other" part as pseudo science, but since we are unable to prove it, I'm not worrying about it. Anyhow the post was only to inform, not to proclaim a new truth hyeah:

--G0bble

 

[Hiten]

Is eyesight also similar to a psycho-acoustical phenomenon? Are perceptions of sharpness, vividness and colour accuracy influenced by psychology?

Big YES Bro. Discovery/Science Channel had some excellent episodes on perception of Hearing and seeing.
Optical Illusion - paper diamonds are different colors, or are they? - YouTube
BBC Horizon: Do you see what I see? "The Himba tribe" - YouTube

On side note our ancient rishis said life is an illusion

 

[gobble]

Big YES Bro. Discovery/Science Channel had some excellent episodes on perception of Hearing and seeing.
On side note our ancient rishis said life is an illusion

Oh man!! This means we need another thread on why buying expensive plasma's and OLED's is a waste - its only an optical illusion!!

And then we will have folks who not only have golden ears but also golden eyes who will claim numerous benefits and "see differences" in the PQ

That diamond video was good, :thumbsup:

--G0bble