Using pre-outs...

[sand64]

Hi pals

Till now I use to think that pre-outs of AVR can be used to add a power amp (two or multichannel as the case may be). However the manual of my AVR says that you can add an external amplifier through pre-outs.

Does this means that I can connect an integrated amplifier directly to pre-outs of a AVR ?? I am confused...

thanks

 

[sand64]

Thanks audio_engr..

Same I was also thinking.... After all it will be like source+pre+pre+power.

However my AVR has 7.2 pre outs and pre-out is written below it. Also there are two adjacent red & white outputs with zone B written below it. I am not clear if they preouts for zone B or source out for zone B. Manual is not clear, but it says that one can connect external amplifier for zone B uses.

So can I connect an integrated to zone B ? In fact I want to use the FM source of AVR through integrated.

cheers

 

[gobble]

Hi pals

Till now I use to think that pre-outs of AVR can be used to add a power amp (two or multichannel as the case may be). However the manual of my AVR says that you can add an external amplifier through pre-outs.

Does this means that I can connect an integrated amplifier directly to pre-outs of a AVR ?? I am confused...

thanks

If you connect the pre-out of your AVR to the main-in of an external integrated you will be using only the power section of the integrated and the preamp of the AVR.

HTH

 

[Sumit]

Actually, you can very well use an integrated or a pre-amp with the pre-outs of an AVR. I am doing something similar.

I am using the front LR pre-out of my AVR, which are connected to the pre-amp which in-turn is connected to the poweramp.

I keep the AVR turned-off for music listening. I have to keep all three on for music watching.
I keep the volume knob of stere-pre at 12'O clock position and control volume for movies from AVR. I have calibrated my set-up with the volume knob at 12'0 clock position.

By connecting this way, I get extra power for floor standers during movies and I don't have to change speaker wires or use a mechanical switch when I switch from music to movies.:clapping:

 

[spirovious]

Another way,int.amps has preamp direct line in bypassing amps preamp(stereo amps)

 

[venkatcr]

Sand64, an integrated amp has a pre-amplifier and a power amplifier that are integrated into a single unit. In some amps such as NAD, you can actually feed the power amplifier separately by removing some plugs at the back. Unless you can do this, in all integrated amps, the input expected is what is called line level. In others words, it expects sound signal sent by a CDP, A DVD player, a tape etc. A pre-amplifier takes these input which usually are in the millivolts range, and amplifies them to roughly 2 odd volts that is sent to the power amplifier. Why is this done? Simply because the sources have very low signal strength and the power amplifiers have a minimum signal strength that they expect. The pre-amplifier matches the two.

An AVR is also an integrated amp, expect that it handles multiple channels instead of two. It accepts line level input from a CDP or a DVDP, pre-amplifies it, and send it to it's own internal power amplification. In some AVRs, there is one caveat. The output of the pre-amplifier can be send to the internal power amplifier or to an external amplifier. Whichever option you use, both will be getting a pre-amplified signal. A 'Pre-Out' means a pre-amplified output. The signal strength will be around 2 volts.

There is nothing wrong is sending this signal to another pre-amplifier such as the one in your integrated amp. But, there is a very simple issue. The pre-amplifier of your integrated amp will be expecting the signal strength to be in the millivolt range. What will it do when you feed it 2 volts instead? Very simple, it will distort the sound. This is very similar to sending the headphone output of a iPhone into an integrated amplifier and then wondering why it sounds so bad.

Cheers

 

[sand64]

Thanks venkat for detailed explaination. I perhaps knew it, but things were hazy. The output voltage of preout of my AVR is 1 V.

Now what should I expect from analogue out of "zone B" provided in my AVR? Are these pre-outs OR they will act as 'line level' if connected to an integrated? Manual is not very clear about this and it only says that when listening to zone B, you need to connect another amplifier....

cheers

 

[sand64]

[Note: In case the Zone-B PreOut is 1v, you are quite safe to plug that to the CD INPUT ONLY of the Integrated and use the Integrated to power the speakers for Zone-B while happily controlling the Volume Level of Zone-B with the Integrated].

Thanks audio_engr

Only CD input OR it can be CD and DVD also ??
In my case, CD INPUT of amp. will not be free, as I shall be using it to connect my CD player.

cheers

 

[sand64]

In fact I want to add an integrated amp for music purpose alone. AVR will be used for HT only and I will connect DVDP to it. Therefore all line inputs of 2-channels (CDP, DVR etc) will be connected to Integrated Amp.
However as I am not having a seperate tuner, I would like to connect AVR through zone B for using tuner as source....

Suggest any other better way...

thanks

 

[venkatcr]

In fact I want to add an integrated amp for music purpose alone. AVR will be used for HT only and I will connect DVDP to it. Therefore all line inputs of 2-channels (CDP, DVR etc) will be connected to Integrated Amp. However as I am not having a seperate tuner, I would like to connect AVR through zone B for using tuner as source....

You are talking about two independent systems as follows:

2 channel amp + CDP + DVR etc.,
AVR + DVDp

If you want to use the tuner you can always use the AVR itself. Given the quality of transmissions, you are not going to get any advantage by routing the tuner through the 2 channel amp.

Only issue will be how to use one pair of speakers for both sets. Simple - use a speaker switch.

Cheers

 

[sand64]

speaker switches are hassels.. are not they??
And with more joints/connections you incur losses??? (though honestly I would not be able to judge the quality difference)

Just toying the ideas

cheers

 

[unleash_me]

I believe Venkat designed a decent one sometime back.

 

[ajinkya]

Sands,

Here's another idea. Find an integrated amp that can also be used in poweramp mode. The Marantz PM7001 has this feature. I know because I helped set up a system in exactly the configuration you're talking about -
The CD et all are connected to the Marantz. The 5.1 from DVD is connected to an AVR, whose preouts go to the 'Mains In' of the Marantz. There is a switch at the back of the Marantz which can be used to keep it in poweramp only mode (separates the preamp and amp sections inside) or as integrated. This way, the system works both as music and HT, with the same set of speakers. The front LR are connected to the Marantz and the centre and surrounds are connected to the AVR speaker outputs. I'm sure there are other integrateds in the market which have this feature. Depending on your budget, you might look at brands from NAD, among others.

-Jinx.

 

[sand64]

Hi Jinx,

This is exactly what I was looking at. I was getting PM7001 for 22k but somehow missed the deal. Other amps with similar features are quite costly. Have decided to wait for some more time.... till I find a good deal. Meanwhile I am enjoying my yammy V863 avr.

cheers

 

[venkatcr]

speaker switches are hassels.. are not they?? And with more joints/connections you incur losses??? (though honestly I would not be able to judge the quality difference)

A speaker switch does not have any hassles. It is quite easy to use, and the loss if any, will be a few millivolts. Does not make any difference to the sound signature.

cheers

 

[ranojoy]

been following this thread with interest because i have plans to add a 2 channel amp myself in future to my avr while keeping the same speakers for music & movies.
[sand64, i was also contemplating an 863 when you pulled the trigger on your yamaha. my hesitation resulted in a 2310. anyway, once again, our needs seem to match!]

two quick questions for the gurus -
1. i had set a ballpark figure of about 25k for the 2 channel amp. sand64 seems to be eyeing similar territory. given the avrs we have, would an amp in that price bracket produce DISCERNIBLE improvements for 2 channel music ? or do we have to move higher up the chain ? assuming that 25k is all that we are willing to spend, should we bother at all or simply go for bi-amp???? (i know its not the same thing as getting a 2 channel amp; just asking )
2. the other option is to go with a 2 channel power amp. somebody on the forum mentioned a sonodyne power amp quite a while back. any suggestions ?

 

[captrajesh]

A pre-amplifier takes these input which usually are in the millivolts range, and amplifies them to roughly 2 odd volts that is sent to the power amplifier. Why is this done? Simply because the sources have very low signal strength and the power amplifiers have a minimum signal strength that they expect. The pre-amplifier matches the two.

Is is so? I thought the job of a pre-amp is to connect multiple sources to power amplifier and to do volume control.

If what you stated is true, what will happen if one connects the CDP to the power amp directly? (Apart from driving the speaker in full volume)

 

[sand64]

been following this thread with interest because i have plans to add a 2 channel amp myself in future to my avr while keeping the same speakers for music & movies.
[sand64, i was also contemplating an 863 when you pulled the trigger on your yamaha. my hesitation resulted in a 2310. anyway, once again, our needs seem to match!]

two quick questions for the gurus -
1. i had set a ballpark figure of about 25k for the 2 channel amp. sand64 seems to be eyeing similar territory. given the avrs we have, would an amp in that price bracket produce DISCERNIBLE improvements for 2 channel music ? or do we have to move higher up the chain ? assuming that 25k is all that we are willing to spend, should we bother at all or simply go for bi-amp???? (i know its not the same thing as getting a 2 channel amp; just asking )
2. the other option is to go with a 2 channel power amp. somebody on the forum mentioned a sonodyne power amp quite a while back. any suggestions ?

YES ! I am on the same boat and would like the gurus of this forum to please answer above post from ranojoy.

In fact during my search for musical speakers to pair my Yamaha 863, I auditioned WF9.5, Mission 74i, 33i, Jamo C405, MS mezzo/aviano etc. Unfortunately I was not carrying my CDs, but at one shop, I did A/B comparisom of mission 74i with mezzo-8, and found mission74i quite competitive.

Mission 74i are similar to 34i but made in Malaysia. So I made a deal and bought mission 74i, on condition that if I didn't like it, then I will exchange it to Jamo 102HCS.....
At home, I did A/B on mission74i & my BPL FS and it turnout to be a great disappointment. Missions are lacking in openness & details, though bass is slightly better than my BPLs. So now I am exchanging missions with Jamo 102 Sub/sat to fulfill HT needs (wifey prefer small speakers). I will keep my BPL in 'front B' for music for time being OR would like to add an 2-ch amp./power amp. (will continue saving & auditioning for better/musical speakers)

So ranojoy's question is relevant to me also......
And is there any way to improve lower dynamics of my BPL floorstanders.

ps: I am better satisfied with my 863 now. Perhaps I expected too much from my upgrade...
cheers

 

[ajinkya]

If you plug in a CDP straight to the Power amp, yes you would drive the power amp to its full power, possibly creating gross clipping - resulting in serious damage to loudspeakers and even the power amp with NO MEANS TO CONTROLLING VOLUME LEVELS.

Unless of course, the power amp has trim/level controls for each channel input, which many do (parasound, adcom come to mind). We can also connect the 'variable out' of a CDP (if it has one) and control the volume from the CD player as well (Oppo and Sony come to mind).

-Jinx.

 

[venkatcr]

Is is so? I thought the job of a pre-amp is to connect multiple sources to power amplifier and to do volume control.

Capt. I think Audio-Engr has explained very well. I was referring to just one function of a pre-amp.

Unless of course, the power amp has trim/level controls for each channel input, which many do (parasound, adcom come to mind). We can also connect the 'variable out' of a CDP (if it has one) and control the volume from the CD player as well (Oppo and Sony come to mind).

There are always specialised equipment available. But these have to be used with complete knowledge of what you are doing. BTW, I have found the volume control of the Oppo to be completely useless. I don't have any idea, but I think the audio amplitude of the Oppo is very low, and you have to keep the players volume full to hear anything.