Vinyl Wet Playing-Harmful?

[himadri]

Hi Vinyl Gurus
Recently reentered the world of vinyl after a gap of 25 years via an entry level TechnicsTT(p mount) coupled with my rest of the rig consisting of Denon PMA2000/Usher Mini Dancer1 and brought out my 150 odd (25-30 yr old LPs).
Lots of crackles , pops even after plain water cleaning/drying forced me to try out the following on a few LPs:
Wet Playing(cleaning)with a solution of 1:4 alcohol-vodka (what else?:licklips+ aquagard water +drops of amway car wash and after wet playing -cleaning/rinsing with flowing water .(the local water is not hard and quite clean)
Results (in dry playing) -crackles , pops reduced drastically but somehow the sound seems to have more distortion(smoothness has reduced)
what can be the reason? and is wet playing(cleaning) to be totally avoided?(there are divergent views on the net?)
Cheers
Himadri

 

[reubensm]

avoid playing your LPs wet...simple logic, your grooves would have debris deep down, the wet debris collect on your stylus and clog it, causing distortion....the stylus is under more wear while picking up wet debris...beware, your stylus would ironically blow faster causing damage to your records, clean wet, dry well, play and enjoy...and btw, there's a better use for vodka try isopropyle alcohol instead!!

 

[stevieboy]

Best avoided. What happens during normal play is cos of the pressure of the stylus, a part of the vinyl melts, smoothing the stylus' path through the groove. When wet, there's no friction and no melting so if the stylus comes across any obstacles/imperfections instead of them giving against the stylus pressure and heat, the groove is more likely to develope holes/scratches/damage. Once wet played, popular opinion is to always wet play the lp after that.

Then you also have issue of water perhaps migrating up the cantilever.

There are plenty of recipes for cleaning solution on this website. Searching should get you an option that works for you. I'd ditch the vodka if I were you.

A lot of the crackling/pops goes away after multiple plays (10-20) so keep playing and see if it makes a difference. It does for me.

Also not using an antistatic device on the lp before playing might cos noise cos of static left on the lp. A carbon fibre brush should do you good for starters, an anti static gun later on.

regards

 

[soulforged]

I use 80:20 isopropyl alcohol and distilled water with a drop or two of Kodak photoflo...

On another note...how can we clean the stylus? I just brush it lightly with an antistatic brush...

 

[stevieboy]

Soul, methinks you mean 80:20 water to distilled?

Same solution I used to use for the stylus, with a fattish paintbrush dipped in the solution. Dry brushing will not get the real gunk off, the type that builds up or after a particularly bad lp. Got the Onzow zerodust now.

regards

 

[himadri]

Thanks Reu
I understand the Stylus is handling wet debris , but also I am sure the water/alcohol mixture is also acting as a lubricant.But your point about stylus care and isopropyle alcohol is well taken.
Any wet players around? and is sound really degraded if played dry following a wet play?
Cheers

 

[himadri]

Thanks Stevie and Soul
I missed your posts and was expecting you guys to chip in.I know the direction now.
Cheers and regards
Himadri

 

[deba]

Playing with water may be harmful but it does reduce lot of crackle.......tried it many times before........

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Playing wet must dampen the play. No pun intended! Just imagine the difference between normal walking in air and walking in a swimming pool, then transfer that image to the stylus.

Melting the vinyl? I never heard that before. there are huge pressures at the tiny tip of that stylus, and records certainly wear out, but I never heard of melting.

Brushing the stylus: make sure to brush, gently, front to back only. Never side to side!

These are the things that I remember from regularly playing vinyl a few years back...

 

[soulforged]

Soul, methinks you mean 80:20 water to distilled?

Youthinks correctly bro...my bad...20% alcohol and 80% distilled water...

I've run out of my photoflo stock...anybody has some?

 

[stevieboy]

Thad,

It's brushing from back to front, the direction an lp flows against the stylus,
not front to back.

Regarding the melting a lot of people won't play the same track twice until vinyl cools down for a few hours. Take a small tip, add tons of pressure and you're bound to have some give, here it takes the form of a slight melting of the groove path. You can look it up.

regards

Soul,

I wanted photoflo, couldn't find it and settled for household pril a few drops per liter, worked quite well. Rinsed well after to wash away as much residue as possible. Maybe you can try that.

regards

edit: maybe 'melt' is too strong a word for the images it conjures up, it's more like vinyl heating up and giving against the stylus pressure and then coming back to original form after a while.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

it's more like vinyl heating up and giving against the stylus pressure and then coming back to original form after a while.

That gives me a much better mental picture. Thanks.

I didn't think you'd be brushing your stylus the wrong way... but who knows what vinyl newcomers might read this thread in future!

 

[himadri]

Playing wet must dampen the play. No pun intended! Just imagine the difference between normal walking in air and walking in a swimming pool, then transfer that image to the stylus.

Melting the vinyl? I never heard that before. there are huge pressures at the tiny tip of that stylus, and records certainly wear out, but I never heard of melting.

Brushing the stylus: make sure to brush, gently, front to back only. Never side to side!

These are the things that I remember from regularly playing vinyl a few years back...

Thad
I listened carefully (dry playing) to a record, one side of which was cleaned by wet playing and the other side without.
Clearly on the wet played side,though the crackles were much less but somehow the original sound wasn't there anymore (change in groove profile?).Localized Melting and instantaneous recovery of grooves in dry playing seems plausible as the stylus may be negotiating tougher grooves at lower temperatures(without melting) during wet playing thus changing the profile permanently.
Cheers and regards
Himadri

 

[Shivam]

Don't 'wet-play' the vinyls. Water will lead to clogging on the stylus and change in traction value (due to surface tension of water).

Using any kind of alcohols may also damage the stylus by causing the joint to become loose or even give way.


Since we are talking wet-play I thought of adding that 78rpm records that were played on gramophone which used an iron needle worked well on 'wet-playing'. The wetting liquid used was usually kerosene and not water. I wouldn't dare using it on my present turntable or any of the records.

 

[himadri]

Playing with water may be harmful but it does reduce lot of crackle.......tried it many times before........

Deba
Was there any difference in sound quality apart from the crackles when played dry before and after the wet playing?
Cheers

 

[entsurgeon]

@ all
If photoflo isn t at hand, try x ray developer from ur nearby pathology lab. You need to befriend the x ray technician though. He isnt usually obliged to sell some.

 

[sumeetbagade]

Vinyl LP records melting at the point of contact ????
is that what u mean ????

plasticised PVC (poly vinyl chloride) is the material the records are made of, and it has a melting point in the range of 80 - 90 deg C.... so dont worry of that ever happening on a turntable; unless the cartridge weighs over a kilogram and the spinning goes to a 100 rpm instead of 33 1/3.....

also WET cleaning is absolutely harmless if,

1. Done using distilled water or alcohol-water mixture in appropriate proportion (20:80, as is generally suggested).
2. there is a chance of soiled records damaging the STYLUS, so try and use a different styli (or a different TT) for wet cleaning.
3. Also as suggested earlier, water may travel up the arm or enter the body of the TT. To avoid this, best solution is to use a spare TT for wet cleaning.

I find a lot of improvement after wet cleaning, and even more after 2 runs of wet cleaning....

Also DO NOT worry about groove damage of the PVC record by MILD acid, alkali solutions... its a very very resilient material and used mainly for water pipelines..... only thing that damages it instantaniously is SUNLIGHT (UV RAYS).....

wet cleaning using contaminated water would be detrimental.. Impurities in water (salts, dirt) can cause additional damage while wet cleaning, as against improving the sound.....

so enjoy ur music on clean vinyls....

Sumeet.....

 

[artzineonline]

I've come to this forum rather late, but couldn't help but comment, because I read some of the comments about 'wet playing' vinyl and kept shaking my head.

The reason wet playing gets rid of the snap, crackle and pop, noises is very simple if you paid attention to your science class in grade school:

Why the snap, crackle and pop? "Static electricity" Vinyl records are inert objects that build up static electricity ( think of the desert, or your wool sweater, or the carpeting in your room). When the stylus makes contact with the spinning vinyl, there's friction, where there's friction there's static electricity discharge
( ever take off a sweater in the dark? every rub your feet on the carpet to shock your girlfriend?) this tiny discharges are amplified, tiny as they are, you have a nice HI FI set up to make them audible.

Why water diminishes the noise... water is the perfect conductor of electricity! Don't try it at home, trust me on this. When water is introduced it becomes the perfect conduit between the vinyl and the 'hi fi system via the stylus and the magnetic cartridge. No more static, no more electrical discharges, no more Snap, Crackle, and pop! The only audible noises left are the physical scratches on the surface of the vinyl.

Will the water + vinyl + stylus melt your grooves? Only if you place a brick on top of your tonearm and spin the record to the velocity of a cyclone ( being facetious here) the answer is NO. The durability of the PVC's manufactured for record playing will not be compromised. Should you make it a habit? Probably not.

There, that's the science behind it. You make the call.

 

[navinsinha]

I've come to this forum rather late, but couldn't help but comment, because I read some of the comments about 'wet playing' vinyl and kept shaking my head.

The reason wet playing gets rid of the snap, crackle and pop, noises is very simple if you paid attention to your science class in grade school:

Why the snap, crackle and pop? "Static electricity" Vinyl records are inert objects that build up static electricity ( think of the desert, or your wool sweater, or the carpeting in your room). When the stylus makes contact with the spinning vinyl, there's friction, where there's friction there's static electricity discharge
( ever take off a sweater in the dark? every rub your feet on the carpet to shock your girlfriend?) this tiny discharges are amplified, tiny as they are, you have a nice HI FI set up to make them audible.

Why water diminishes the noise... water is the perfect conductor of electricity! Don't try it at home, trust me on this. When water is introduced it becomes the perfect conduit between the vinyl and the 'hi fi system via the stylus and the magnetic cartridge. No more static, no more electrical discharges, no more Snap, Crackle, and pop! The only audible noises left are the physical scratches on the surface of the vinyl.

Will the water + vinyl + stylus melt your grooves? Only if you place a brick on top of your tonearm and spin the record to the velocity of a cyclone ( being facetious here) the answer is NO. The durability of the PVC's manufactured for record playing will not be compromised. Should you make it a habit? Probably not.

There, that's the science behind it. You make the call.

Hi Bro,
In your opinion, what is the best way to clean vinyls to avoid the cracks and pops?

 

[Record Player]

Hi Bro,
In your opinion, what is the best way to clean vinyls to avoid the cracks and pops?

Well, one can never eliminate the pops and crackles. There are various methods in cleaning Vinyl. What works best for me is IPA+Distilled Water.

Now, over the years I only find mint vinyl to sound great with the least amount of pops and cracks. Anything else to me is just nostalgic value. Try using an anti static record cleaning brush before play as that's really helps to an extent.

90% of my collection now comprises of only Near Mint Records and they simply sound fantastic on the 1200s and 401.

Cheers