Wharfedale 9.5 with PM6003

[BLASTO]

@Jaudire/All.

If a 40w p/ch amp is good enough to drive floorstanders, why would the companies produce a 80w/ch amp and price it 1.5-2 times? If the obvious difference between them which is the wattage does not translate to better sound, how is the extra money for the higher wattage amp justified?

I have a NAD C320 which is 40w/ch @8ohms and am planning for floor-stander. These amps perform exteremely well with BS. I haven't even crossed 11 O clock position in this all these days. Should I even consider upgrading to C355BEE (80w/ch) now (considering Iam tuned to NAD sound)? Upgradation is my current plan and reading this thread makes me wonder why.

I ask because the sound signature between the above two is same when I auditioned and only wattage varies and a lot of people buy the higher wattage version also. I want to know the rationale.

Also, I am not sure I will be able to tell them apart in a blind test. Never took the test though.

Your inputs will help me decide.

Edit: More info.
While I haven't decided on the speakers yet, MS Aviano 6 and Paradigm Monitor 7/9 are forerunners now. Former is 88db and latter have 94/96 db sensitivity respectively.

Assuming I select one of them, will the C320 hold up? More importantly, what will I miss if I don't upgrade to C355BEE. I never considered the C320 a pair to these FS, thats why these questions crop up.

 

[jaudere]

Hi,

It is good to see that people are now thinking before going for higher wattage amp.
While more power does not mean better sound quality, it definitely means louder sound. So if someone is going to change room dimensions,i.e. going into a larger room or if background noise is suddenly going to increase e.g parties, then buying an amp with higher wattage makes sense.

Higher wattage also means more headroom. It may not mean much for music but in movies it does, especially for very low frequency sounds like blasts and quakes which need higher power transiently.

Where floor standers score over bookshelves, is that they create a great atmosphere of music with fuller sound as they are better in lower frequencies(sometimes at the expense of accuracy as per some experts).

Just for further elaboration, take a bookshelf speaker and a floor stander each with sensitivity of 90dB/watt. What does that rating mean? If you pump 1 watt into either of those , they will produce SPL of 90 regardless of being a bookshelf or a floorstander. That means they will go equally loud with same power.
Where they will differ is 1)their sound signature and frequency range that they can reproduce : this will make them sound better or worse but not louder/softer
2)RMS power ; The speaker with higher RMS power will be able to handle more power pumped into it &that is needed only when one needs loud sound. If your use of speakers includes occassional parties with some amatuer DJ Handling the equipment , then you should opt for higher wattage amp and speakers.

For 2 spekares with different sensitivity, the one with better sensitivity will be definitely louder than the other but will not necessary mean better sound quality.

If you see PA speakers, tehir sensitivity is in the range of 95 to 98 dB/watt or higher. That is becasue they want maximum possible loudness in minimum possible power of amp but their frequancy range is many times limited and the sound quality is grainy and not good. But they are ready to compromise SQ for louder sound.

Can you believe, I have seen a Marantz 6002(45watt/CH) being used for public address of 150 people without any problem whatsoever. Reason, it was only human voice, that too males only, being amplified. so much narrow frequency range needed to be amplified.I was bit suspicious when the sound guy was setting up his system but once the program started, all my doubts were cleared.

NAD is well known for excellent head room. NAD 50w/CH is said to have headroom of another 50w (making 100w/cha of transient power).
So unless your room dimensions are going to increase significantly, I don't think you will miss anything with NAD 320 being used to drive floor standers in place of bookshelves. All hi-fi speakers usually have sensitivity between 86 to 92dB/watt and NAD 320 should drive them easily for a 16X12 room.

One important point. This statement will hold true only if the sound signature of NAD 355 BEE and 320BEE is same. I have heard 320BEE but not 355BEE.
You can do this : compare both amps with same floor stander at same sound pressure level(loudness) and in a room similar to your room at home.

For home use, please don't look at the sensitivity first. Decide the speaker based on the sound signature first. You are in best poosition to decide whether 320BEE will drive FS easily or no because you own it. Get the FS that you like and see it yourself.For testing, use loudness of the same level that you use daily. Otherwise some people crank up volume upto 3 o clock position just for the sake of testing and then the amp clips and these people say that the amp is underpowered. Most of the amps give distorted signal near maximum limit.

WHAT is the sensitivity of the bookshelves that you are using? If it is similar to the FS which You are considering, you are not going to miss anything if you use NAD 320 provided your listening room remains same. Rather use the extra money to buy good music.

 

[BLASTO]

^^ That helps a lot.
My bookshelves are custom vintage speakers with 86db sensitivity.

Since passive speakers do NOT use external power source and have more number of drives to drive, it looked logical that they will require more power. But since the room size is not going to vary, I assume it should be ok.

Will keep the c320 for now and get the speakers first and use them with it. Will upgrade the amps only if required. Thanks.

 

[jaudere]

^^ That helps a lot.
My bookshelves are custom vintage speakers with 86db sensitivity.

Since passive speakers do NOT use external power source and have more number of drives to drive, it looked logical that they will require more power. But since the room size is not going to vary, I assume it should be ok.

In fact, when more speaker drivers are involved, they will move more air with same amount of power so they get louder.(depends on how much energy the XO is eating up).

Your FS options have a sensitivity of 88 and 94. The one with 88 sensitivity will not be 'noticably' louder but will be at least equally loud as compared to your book shelves (provided the ohm rating is same). The one with 94 dB sensitivity will definitely be louder than your book shelves with volume knob at the same position. Whether you like the sound or no will depend on your taste.

When more drivers are arranged in parallel, the impedance drops and same amp is going to pump in more power. If your NAD is 40watt at 8 ohms, it will pump soemwhere around 60 to 80 watts RMS in a 4 ohm speaker.

Cheers.

P.S> I am using a philips stereo 20w RMS /channel amp for movies with my home made open baffle speakers. I cannot go beyond 10 o'clock in action movies. The listening distance from speakers is 7 feet.This will further reduce your apprehensions about low powerd amp. You may take a feed back from people using Topping TP 20 which pumps about 11W RMS /channel.

For music I use marantz 6002 which is 45 watts for 8 ohm (60w into 4 ohm). At 10 o'clock,it becomes so loud that we cannot converse in the room. My speakers have 2 woofers of 8" each and a silk dome tweeter(as good as a floorstander). It is a 2 way largish bookshelf speaker. My listening distance from speakers is 12 feet.

 

[BLASTO]

In fact, when more speaker drivers are involved, they will move more air with same amount of power so they get louder.(depends on how much energy the XO is eating up).

Your FS options have a sensitivity of 88 and 94. The one with 88 sensitivity will not be 'noticably' louder but will be at least equally loud as compared to your book shelves (provided the ohm rating is same). The one with 94 dB sensitivity will definitely be louder than your book shelves with volume knob at the same position. Whether you like the sound or no will depend on your taste.

When more drivers are arranged in parallel, the impedance drops and same amp is going to pump in more power. If your NAD is 40watt at 8 ohms, it will pump soemwhere around 60 to 80 watts RMS in a 4 ohm speaker.

Cheers.

P.S> I am using a philips stereo 20w RMS /channel amp for movies with my home made open baffle speakers. I cannot go beyond 10 o'clock in action movies. The listening distance from speakers is 7 feet.This will further reduce your apprehensions about low powerd amp. You may take a feed back from people using Topping TP 20 which pumps about 11W RMS /channel.

For music I use marantz 6002 which is 45 watts for 8 ohm (60w into 4 ohm). At 10 o'clock,it becomes so loud that we cannot converse in the room. My speakers have 2 woofers of 8" each and a silk dome tweeter(as good as a floorstander). It is a 2 way largish bookshelf speaker. My listening distance from speakers is 12 feet.

Hi Jaudere,

I went in for a demo taking my amps and below post has the observations.

http://www.hifivision.com/speakers/5124-c405-vs-wh-9-5-a-2.html#post272636

I would like to know your views.

 

[jaudere]

Hi Jaudere,

I went in for a demo taking my amps and below post has the observations.

http://www.hifivision.com/speakers/5124-c405-vs-wh-9-5-a-2.html#post272636

I would like to know your views.

Since you have auditioned it personally I have to accept what you say.

1)One point you have yourself accepted that probably there is no synergy between the two components

2) how was the loudness with your NAD?was it adequate? What level of knob could you cross? The soul of music not being there is i think more related to synergy rather than power.

3)since it was audition at dealer's place and not in your home(what you are used to) the comparison is not fair. If possible get those speakers for home demo and then comment on your NAD.Room acoustics play huge role in sound.

Even if you decide to get new amp, try to get a home audition before you finalize.

After all sound is so subjective.

 

[BLASTO]

Since you have auditioned it personally I have to accept what you say.

1)One point you have yourself accepted that probably there is no synergy between the two components

Yes, Could be, But I never came accross a complete out of sync synergy between a speaker and two amps in the (almost) same price range before. This is new.

2) how was the loudness with your NAD?was it adequate? What level of knob could you cross? The soul of music not being there is i think more related to synergy rather than power.

Well, same as the other two 100w amps till 12'O clock position. Did not test after that as it was too loud in all the amps.

3)since it was audition at dealer's place and not in your home(what you are used to) the comparison is not fair. If possible get those speakers for home demo and then comment on your NAD.Room acoustics play huge role in sound.

I have plans for that. The store is closed tomorrow. Will mostly do it on monday.

Even if you decide to get new amp, try to get a home audition before you finalize.

After all sound is so subjective.

Speakers are almost finalised. And, if we assume that wattage has nothing to do with this, then the synergy is not there is almost certain. (I say because, the demo is usually is good in the showrooms rather than home. I expect it to be worser @my home).

If synergy is the problem, This event also voids all my previous auditions as they were done using Marantz/Denon/Onkyos mostly. God save me.

 

[jaudere]

Hi Blasto,

The fact that your NAD Made the speaker go very loud without crossing 12 oclock itself proves my point. Wattage is related to loudness. So even with a 40w/ch ampyou could use only 50% its capacity(i dont know whether that means 20w. I dont know whether the knob follows linear relationship or log )
So the NAD DID drive those floor stander well. What you did not like is sound signature of the combo(you cant say sound signature of NAD,you always need to consider it as sound signature of whole set up including source).

To investigate further, try this. Since your dealer is stocking Marantz, compare the marantz 100w/ch that you tried, with pm 6003 (45w/ch, very close to your NAD ) And for experimental purpose even with the pm5004 (35w/ch). This should be done in your own listening room and not dealer's place and with the speakers that you have chosen &your own source. You should keep the volume level at the usual point or only slightly higher. Let me know your impression after that. I think this will prove my point and save some of your money.

However it seems that since you have chosen speakers and they are not going well with your NAD, You need to change the amp.

 

[BLASTO]

Hi Blasto,

To investigate further, try this. Since your dealer is stocking Marantz, compare the marantz 100w/ch that you tried, with pm 6003 (45w/ch, very close to your NAD ) And for experimental purpose even with the pm5004 (35w/ch).

Din't know why I din't think of this. Will ask him to make the setup consisting these and audition. It will prove 100% if the reson is wattage or synergy.

Will do this at the shop only first as the room is a variable (a very big one at that) for comparison sake.

 

[jaudere]

I am waiting eagerly for your review.

I hope pm 6003 does a good job. Otherwise I need to go back to basics and start reading again about how a wattage difference of 50 watt makes difference in sound signature. I am banking on the soundness of my (I mean whatever I have read and experienced) theory and experience of those people using Toppin TP 2020 (10w/ch) amp effectively.

You may do it at the dealer's place but please take at least one precaution. Keep the listening distance from speakers same as that in your home.

 

[saran]

I Also Bought A New Marantz PM6003, but I am not going for the wharfedale's this time for stereo,I have tried a well burnt Wharfedale 9.5 with my NAD C350 60 Watt RMS and I was not Completely Satisfied with the Sound even though it handled the floorstanders very well and when they changed to a well burnt Wharfedale Diamond 9.1.. I bought it Immediatly, this I did without auditioning other bookshelves speakers, But this time I am Going to try Marantz PM6003 which has a different sound signature than the NAD but no more Wharfies for Stereo after listening to Quad 11L and MA Bx2 with 6003 which costs the same as wharfies 9.5, But Still I have listed the wharfedale 9.5 in the wanted Section , but that is for MY HT setup, also I thought I can Get a used one for a Good price and save some money and buy a good pair of speakers for the stereo.
Coming to the point If you have a very big listening Area you can go for floor standers but to get enough sweat out of the Floor standers you should have atleast 85 to 100 watts RMS, because I have extensively Listened to Infinity Floor standers in my Friends place which is a big hall with Carpet controlled by 150 watts RMS NAD C372 and the sound was so good and Authoritative but when I connected my NAD C350 it does Drive it well but not as good as the powerfull C372 note that its in his place which is a big hall (not Very Big). there is definitely a marked difference between Amps with Higher and Lower Wattage and also the size of the Listening area,IMHO Go for higher wattage and floor standers if you have a big listening area and if your room is small stick with a moderately powered amplifier and a very Good pair of bookshelf speakers( MA BX2 or Quad) this will blow the pants out of any budget floor standers in a small listening area .


I am also Eagerly waiting for Blasto's Review with different Amps and speakers.


Thanks
Saran

 

[jaudere]

Hi saran,

The last audition where I tested my Pm 6002 was with Infinity floor standers itself. The sound was amazing. I don't remember the model though. The cost was some 28k/pair. When I gather adequate money, I will go for it.

The point is that I never found Pm 6002 struggling with those floor standers from infinity. The listening room was not very larte (may be 16x12) and I could never cross 11 o'clock of volume knob.

 

[yahoo0212]

I Auditioned JBL ES80, which is a 4 way Floor stander and also Bookshelves Wharfedale 10.2 at our forum member akd 's place (IIT- Guwahati) ... Well the Wharfedales were new and wer not burnt in yet ... so that was the reason the BS were boomy which was very evident... The JBL s were well burnt in ,,, and the soundstage and separation of instruments which they produce was amazing .. The bass too wass way many timess tighter than the wharfedales... akd (Arnab sir) was very patient and helpful in giving the audition... with his Turntables (Technics 1210/1200 , Project Debut III ) and CDs (Azur 650C).. He is an audiophile in its true sense... He has got a collection of ~1200+ LPs.. My god ,, I don think anybody got so many LP s in this forum or anywhere.. It was a great experience.. Sunday evening relished !!!

Coming to the Marantz 6003,, We also auditioned the same songs with Norge 1000 too... and the 6003 is better than Norge,,,nyday... but for casual listening Norge is not bad... Marantz 6003 easily ... I again say... easily drove those 4way speakers easily.. we did not cross the 12'O clock position on the amp....

 

[jaudere]

Hi Yahoo,

You made me remember the time about 3 years back when I was first introduced to hi fi audio and was roaming around visiting various dealers in Mumbai.

It was at Atria mall in Mumbai that I heard JBL ES 80 paired with HK3490.
What an amazing sound! That combo is still one of my dream systems. Just before that I had heard a NAD system at Lakozy costong about 5 lacs (2.5 for amp and 2.5 for speakers, don't remember the model and this HK-JBL combo was at par). Only thing, you need pretty big room for that 4 way speaker.

I didn't have budget that time to buy that 30k amp+ some 60k for speaker.(and I still do not have it):sad:

How much do they cost now?Any idea?

-------------
Guys , Please note that PM 6003 is 45w/ch and Norge 1k is 100w/ch for 8 ohm

 

[yahoo0212]

The JBL ES80 s are available for 43k / pair

 

[BLASTO]

Din't know why I din't think of this. Will ask him to make the setup consisting these and audition. It will prove 100% if the reson is wattage or synergy.

Will do this at the shop only first as the room is a variable (a very big one at that) for comparison sake.

Ok. So the dealer declined to get any 2.0 amp for demo until I 'confirm' order! I hate hyd.

 

[jaudere]

Oh,
When i saw your new thread in wanted section, i thought you managed that comparison and found that 6003 or 5004 are failing to drive the Jamos.
None of the forum members from your city having the said marantz models where you can carry your speakers for audition?

 

[sups]

I am banking on the soundness of my (I mean whatever I have read and experienced) theory and experience of those people using Toppin TP 2020 (10w/ch) amp effectively.

Looking at sensitivity figure alone can be tricky. Its well known that tp20 goes well with high sensitivity (~90dB) speakers. But, tp20 drives Usher S520 very well even though S520 sensitivity is only 86dB. Here is an useful post:

"the ratings of 88db or 85 or 90 etc are all given assuming an 8 ohm impedance or rather thats the general trend. Realistically it is meant to say 1W of power is consumed when a voltage of 2.83V is applied with a resistance of 8 ohms and that gives so and so sound levels at 1m.

Power = (V^2/R). Now some manufacturers play games with this (IMO, much like the PMPO nonsense) and say 90dB, however the impedance can be 2 ohms - so what happens? it then means that 90dbm of sound pressure is produced at 1m, when 4W is applied -> (2.83^2)/2 = 4
so it takes 4W to get 90dB, in other words its the same as a speaker that does 84dB at 1W (every double of wattage gives a 3dB higher sound pressure).
Many people interchange the terms speaker efficiency and speaker sensitivity, they do not mean the same thing and this is where the confusion lies.

by the way, the above does not even take into other factors such as complex phase or lower impedance which makes it further hard to drive (from an amp output stage perspecive)."
The above is from the link:
http://www.hifivision.com/speakers/13569-b-w-801-a-9.html#post213861

 

[BLASTO]

Oh,
When i saw your new thread in wanted section, i thought you managed that comparison and found that 6003 or 5004 are failing to drive the Jamos.
None of the forum members from your city having the said marantz models where you can carry your speakers for audition?

No. I did not and the ambiguity remains.

I have asked for the members for a demo in the same thread.