Why Avr so bad for music?

[ranjeetrain]

An AV receiver uses integrated circuits and digital signal processing which technically rips the signal apart and rearranges it. It's the furthest thing you can get from the truth, the truth being the original signal.

A whole bunch of Stereo Amps do that too. And not just entry level, but some expensive ones too. And not only some low-profile manufacturers, but some high profile manufacturers, too. Do you know about them? Or should I list some for your reference?

If Stereo amps as well do that, why point fingers at AVRs?

 

[arindamcc]

Yamaha /Denon etc. And these AVR's dont use mass market STK chips or so..

Yamaha AVR use STK chip for their amplifier. :sad::sad:

 

[elangoas]

may be it matters from company to company in AVR like how much they address this in design to listen two channel format... certainly marantz is the king in this regard

I had already told this in an earlier post.. But juz repeating here.When marntz receiver is engaged on Source Direct / Pure direct, it treats the speaker as full range (20 Hz - 20Khz). May be that is the reason why it sounds bull bodied.

On an other note there is world of difference when we switch between Source direct/Pure direct "on" & "off". After googling i found that, when the receiver is not engaged in direct mode, there is a 100Hz cut off to the subwoofer. So the speaker receives only above 100Hz.. But the sound is very pale.....I feel there is no life to the song. Any thoughts why ?

 

[rishiguru]

The recommendations stem out of 1 pure fact. Less is better. Everything else is perception.

Pure fiction. Atleast to me more is better....

An amplifier's job is nothing but amplification. Everything else is an interference, to a good extent that includes even the wire and solder....However in one's aim if one does not try to keep a signal pure then what's the point?

I tell you next time you upgrade to a pre-power, don't even bother to look at the pre-amplifier. Just buy the power amp and connect it directly to a CD player having a variable output, you don't even need a volume controller.

Thus you will be having a more direct contact from the source to the loudspeaker saving you from all the audio signal losses that happens while it is passing through the pre-amplifer circuits and keep the signal more "pure" as per you liking. And what is the need of bass, treble controls as it is going fill impurities in the original audio signal. I am sure you will be happy with the said combo.

Or you may DIY your CA amp and rip the pre-amp section apart.

Hope you all the best.:clapping:

 

[jaudere]

I was introduced to hi fi world with Denon AVr-jamo combination and I still remember that lovely sound. i have also owned Yanmaha RxV 361 in past. In pure direct mode it was quite ok (though I like Marantz pm 6002 more). I can't blame it on AVRs in general but I can just state that marantz pm 6002 is better than RXV361 for music , with my speakers and source.

A much better way to use AVR for music is to connect source (stereo) to front speaker in if the AVR has multichannel analogue in. In this mode, the AVR functions as power amplifier. Nothing else is involved in the signal pth except volume control. OP may try it.

OP may be correct with his observation but probably tripath and his speakers had better synergy and that's all.

 

[corElement]

Pure fiction. Atleast to me more is better...

The reality is defined by perception.

I tell you next time you upgrade to a pre-power, don't even bother to look at the pre-amplifier. Just buy the power amp and connect it directly to a CD player having a variable output, you don't even need a volume controller.

Thus you will be having a more direct contact from the source to the loudspeaker saving you from all the audio signal losses that happens while it is passing through the pre-amplifer circuits and keep the signal more "pure" as per you liking. And what is the need of bass, treble controls as it is going fill impurities in the original audio signal. I am sure you will be happy with the said combo.

That is my intention. My setup does not benefit from bass and treble control as it audibly negatively affects the sound. I use it on direct. I would dump the pre along with bass and treble controls it if I could.

Or you may DIY your CA amp and rip the pre-amp section apart.

Hope you all the best.:clapping:

If I were blessed with enough money to take things apart and ignore their resale value I would infact I would not even have the ca amp. As far as I am concerned it is a compromise keeping in mind practicality for my near future plans.

A whole bunch of Stereo Amps do that too. And not just entry level, but some expensive ones too. And not only some low-profile manufacturers, but some high profile manufacturers, too. Do you know about them? Or should I list some for your reference?

If Stereo amps as well do that, why point fingers at AVRs?

Integrated circuits or digital signal processing? Regardless, Indeed they do. However a generalized list of brands and models mean very little without an detailed in depth look at their designs. I'm not pointing fingers at anything. I used a good AVR for stereo for nearly a year. I'm speaking out of my own experience from upgrading from a class A/B AVR to a class A&B 2.0 stereo amp. If people wish to take that as pointing fingers then the conversation is not going anywhere as I already mentioned it is a matter of perception. If someone likes a ripped apart digitized sound, who's to say he doesn't or can't?

I share Viren Bakshi's view on amplifiers and why he stepped away from complex amplifier designs and went towards SET Class A amplifiers in pure Class A mode with minimal components under the hood, plain and simple. An amplifier is nothing but for amplification. Everything else is just an add on presentation and value additions.

 

[jaudere]

I have a different opinion and experience about tone controls. I use tone controls to exactly mirror the Frequency response curve of the speaker (and later fine tuned to my liking). Only thing, my tone controls are not simple bass and treble but they are professional 31 band graphic equalizers (dbx 231) with quite precise band of frequency being affected. I cannot perceive any added distortion/worsening but I could easily tailor the sound to my liking. I have read that almost all recording engineers use equalizers and I feel that they won't have used EQ if there was a really added distortion with good quality equalizers.

 

[rishiguru]

That is my intention........................As far as I am concerned it is a compromise keeping in mind practicality for my near future plans.

Hope all the best for your "bare bone" future setup plans.

So are you currently using an analog source for your pure "analog" setup, or is the source a digital one?

Kindly confirm.

 

[corElement]

I have a different opinion and experience about tone controls. I use tone controls to exactly mirror the Frequency response curve of the speaker (and later fine tuned to my liking). Only thing, my tone controls are not simple bass and treble but they are professional 31 band graphic equalizers (dbx 231) with quite precise band of frequency being affected. I cannot perceive any added distortion/worsening but I could easily tailor the sound to my liking. I have read that almost all recording engineers use equalizers and I feel that they won't have used EQ if there was a really added distortion with good quality equalizers.

There is nothing wrong with using an equalizer. However an equalizer in a production environment has an entirely different purpose to that of an equalizer in playback.

Remember one thing, all drivers have a fixed performance. When you alter it for a personalized presentation they have to go beyond their performance chart. There's nothing wrong with doing so, even if the sound is altered from the original it does not matter. Because it is a matter of perception. But fact is fact, an equalizer in playback only serves a need to correct a deficiency or add an emotional benefit. One should not get deterred by facts in a subjects where perception is above all.

So are you currently using an analog source for your pure "analog" setup, or is the source a digital one?
Kindly confirm.

It's in the signature. Feel free to confuse a purist view from practical execution.

 

[rishiguru]

Only thing, my tone controls are not simple bass and treble but they are professional 31 band graphic equalizers (dbx 231) with quite precise band of frequency being affected. I cannot perceive any added distortion/worsening but I could easily tailor the sound to my liking.

I think we both have something in common, we both do not posses GOLDEN EARS.

 

[corElement]

I think we both have something in common, we both do not posses GOLDEN EARS.

It's not a question of having golden ears or not. It's about one's equipment being able to reveal the alternation or not.

My previous equipment benefited from equalizers because it needed the alternation to correct the sound otput. However the present system any equalizer related changes negatively affects the sound because it is able to reveal the change. Even 1 db offset on any frequency is revealed and usually in a negative way as compared to positive previously.

It is simply a matter of equipment synergy.

 

[jaudere]

You are right cor. My speakers were weak below 100hz and had mid range shout at about 1khz and again at around 6-8khz, which needed to be tamed. So equalizers work well for me. The bass could have been taken care by the sub woofer but I did not want to split the signal artificially by crossover and wanted the speaker to be fed full range signal . So did not go subwoofer way and subwoofer could not address those 1khz and 8khz humps either. After all it is about defining weaknesses and trying to address them.

People try to address weaknesses by changing interconnects/power cords/speaker cables and what not which is too much off trial and error and ultimately too costly. Some may even change the equipment altogether. Tone control, in form of EQs seems to be a cheaper and practical way provided they do not add to audible distortion.

One thing, regardless of how good and revealing your system is, the room acrostics are going to play spoilsport in the final sound with few augmented and few suppressed frequencies (unless you have scientifically made listening room). EQs/tone controls come handy to negate the bad effect of room acoustics to certain extent.

So add one more dimension to Synergy, source-amp-speaker-room synegry
Probably your room is in perfect synergy with your present equipment and that is why you do not need any equalization.

By the way, if you can notice 1dB offset, then you DO really possess golden ears.

 

[tirthankar]

Pure fiction. Atleast to me more is better....

Glad you included Atleast to me.
But I wonder why you are so sure that what is better for you is the only fact..

I tell you next time you upgrade to a pre-power, don't even bother to look at the pre-amplifier. Just buy the power amp and connect it directly to a CD player having a variable output, you don't even need a volume controller.

That would work very well with the right speaker and amp, if some required factors like impedance matching, output levels, input sensitivity and gain are taken care of properly

 

[corElement]

The bass could have been taken care by the sub woofer but I did not want to split the signal artificially by crossover and wanted the speaker to be fed full range signal . So did not go subwoofer way and subwoofer could not address those 1khz and 8khz humps either. After all it is about defining weaknesses and trying to address them.

You did the correct thing but not putting a sub for music. If it were a home theater then it would have been a different scenario.

People try to address weaknesses by changing interconnects/power cords/speaker cables and what not which is too much off trial and error and ultimately too costly. Some may even change the equipment altogether. Tone control, in form of EQs seems to be a cheaper and practical way provided they do not add to audible distortion.

Yes cables are an expensive proposition to get wrong. I got lucky with a one shot match and so did Avid but FM's like tirthankar were not as lucky at first.

I have found cables to change tonality to a much greater degree than equalizers. Equalizers are able to control specific frequencies but end of the day we will opt for whatever is the practical solution.

One thing, regardless of how good and revealing your system is, the room acrostics are going to play spoilsport in the final sound with few augmented and few suppressed frequencies (unless you have scientifically made listening room). EQs/tone controls come handy to negate the bad effect of room acoustics to certain extent.

Definitely.

So add one more dimension to Synergy, source-amp-speaker-room synegry

Probably your room is in perfect synergy with your present equipment and that is why you do not need any equalization.

Most likely, yes. However it's not perfect ofcourse. because one speaker is closer to the corner and has better fuller bass and the other doesnt. And I have no control over one channel equalization. But yes, like you said it's one more dimension.

By the way, if you can notice 1dB offset, then you DO really possess golden ears.

Haha, I appreciate the compliment but believe me when I say I've had almost 5 speakers connected to my setup and these d830's are the first ones which are able to reveal that 1db change. I find myself having all settings off on the source and all settings off on the amp giving the most accurate pin point reproduction. Even that 1 db change manages to hide tiny tiny details which in my other speakers were not even AUDIBLE.

 

[rishiguru]

It's not a question of having golden ears or not. It's about one's equipment being able to reveal the alternation or not. ......However the present system any equalizer related changes negatively affects the sound because it is able to reveal the change. Even 1 db offset on any frequency is revealed and usually in a negative way as compared to positive previously.

You have pretty awesome hearing ability corElement.

You can note a 1db offset on any frequency.

 

[jaudere]

Luckily my EQs are 2 channle EQs, so I can use separate EQ settings for each speaker. Luckily tell now, I have not needed it so and EQ settings on both channels are equal. @Rishiguru, I had directly connected my source to a directly to power amp without a pre amp. The source was my netbook. All tone settings were at neutral. Volume was controlled on netbook. It does really give decent results. I think, if your source is single and has volume control , one should not involve pre amp in the chain at all provided your speakers are really good right from 50hz upto 18khz. In fact Pulz dual mono power amp has gain control and should work well in such situation (provided the voltage given by source is high enough).

 

[pranavkumar]

Pranav,

You seem to have a profound knowledge on the subject. But you have made some very broad generalizations here. I am trying to understand your basis behind such bold generalizations. I have highlighted three parts in your post. Can you please clarify:

(1) What are those digital equalization, and why can't they be removed from signal path?

(2) How does the "Pre direct mode" of an AVR works?

(3) What digitization does the Tripath do and how is it different from an AVR?

Hi,
i will try and explain here, but it would have been perfect if somehow i had a paper and a pen !

1 : i'm sorry to have used equalization, that word might not fit perfectly with what i want to say ! An stereo amplifier ideally contains a preamp and a power amp. In an AVR, there are about 5-7 (usually) distinct signals which need to be pre and power amplified. Due to the coming up of modern technologies, digitization has come in a big way.. Although this digitization is not ideal for a simple music listening setup, as this is far from what a music signal was intended to be, i.e. a sinusoidal waveform with varying freq and amplitudes. a Digital signal is something completely different, a square wave in layman's terms.
To integrate all the amplification that needs to happen in any AVR, digitization is preferred because of the simplicity and compactness, noise immunity etc. . clearly having pro's and cons.
This digital signal needs to converted to an analog signal which is fed into the speakers, which is done at the small signal stage. This conversion is very very crucial and determines everything basically. The better the algorithm to convert the digital signal, the more perfect sine wave you would receive.

Some say marantz makes musical avr's, how can one say that ? This can only happen if the algo to convert the digital signal to an analog one is more music oriented (yes that can happen, need a paper and a pen to explain).
It might be difficult to completely exclude the digital processing taking place, because at the input stage the analog signal is converted to a digital one.. (hmm....)
best bet : Pure Direct in a two channel Music mode !

2. When you ask people that what Pure Direct really is, any one would say.. the signal involves no processing and is passed through to the power amp. but i wouldn't want to generalize on any thing that might be happening with the signal inside the AVR. could vary from brand to brand! Not Sure..
Although in a usual stereo amplifier, when you have the pure direct on, the signal path bypasses the tone control ckt and undergoes a completely analog amplification by the pre-power ckts.

In the PD mode, there is no filtering or boost thingi happening whatsoever and you would probably hear what the artist wants you to hear.


3. The tripath amp is a CLASS T amplifier, which is an implementation of a Class D amplifier. when you feed the signal into one, it automatically converts it into a square wave which is amplified and converted back to a analog wave which you feed into your speakers. So, small signal is amplified while it is still a square wave, and then converted to a analog one. If you see, the datasheet of the TP chip... you can clearly see the processing and modulation components... along with some logic gates...

hope i was able to make things a little clear.
Cheers !

 

[rishiguru]

@Rishiguru, I had directly connected my source to a directly to power amp without a pre amp. The source was my netbook. All tone settings were at neutral. Volume was controlled on netbook. It does really give decent results. I think, if your source is single and has volume control , one should not involve pre amp in the chain at all provided your speakers are really good right from 50hz upto 18khz. In fact Pulz dual mono power amp has gain control and should work well in such situation (provided the voltage given by source is high enough).

Good.

So now we spend even less and gain even more SQ. So simple isn't it.

 

[spirovious]

I had already told this in an earlier post.. But juz repeating here.When marntz receiver is engaged on Source Direct / Pure direct, it treats the speaker as full range (20 Hz - 20Khz). May be that is the reason why it sounds bull bodied.

On an other note there is world of difference when we switch between Source direct/Pure direct "on" & "off". After googling i found that, when the receiver is not engaged in direct mode, there is a 100Hz cut off to the subwoofer. So the speaker receives only above 100Hz.. But the sound is very pale.....I feel there is no life to the song. Any thoughts why ?

In Yamaha,stereo & Straight mode cut of Bass frequency & SW plays it.Only 'Pure direct' cuts of all DSP processing,speakers are treated as Large.

 

[psychotropic]

Some real nastiness going on in these forums these days eh?

A friend of mine had the Usher Be-718s and he had temporarily hooked htem up to his Onkyo 304 AVR and they sounded very dull. For a lark we swapped in a Topping TP20 tripath amp and the improvement was profound and dramatic. Detail, separation, soundstage, imaging, bass slam, everything improved. Of course this was the cheapest and most basic of Onkyo's AVRs, but still a damn sight costlier than the Tripath. While any blanket statement to the effect that AVRs are inferior etc., may not hold up to scrutiny, at least when it comes to tripath amps they can seriously outperform components (whether stereo amps or AVRs) significantly more expensive.