Why there is little focus on acoustics

[matbhuvi]

When I did a proper acoustics treatment on my system ( just the midrange and highs), i found the inferior dac in my Denon AVR 3500 was so much enjoyable with lossy Youtube and polk RTi speakers. I was using Shiit Yggdrasil dac earlier in an completely untreated room earlier with much expensive keh studio monitors. Once I got my room treated, i completely forgot my stereo for about an year. That was how much it was enjoyable. An inferior gear in a treated room was so so much better than expensive gear in untreated room imo.

I have moved up to a way more expensive stereo setup now. But, still couldn't forget my journey. Whenever I see i people reviewing Uber expensive gear in untreated rooms, i just feel sorry for them.

Makes me wonder why our audiophile community keeps on neglecting acoustics treatment

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

When I did a proper acoustics treatment on my system ( just the midrange and highs), i found the inferior dac in my Denon AVR 3500 was so much enjoyable with lossy Youtube and polk RTi speakers. I was using Shiit Yggdrasil dac earlier in an completely untreated room earlier with much expensive keh studio monitors. Once I got my room treated, i completely forgot my stereo for about an year. That was how much it was enjoyable. An inferior gear in a treated room was so so much better than expensive gear in untreated room imo.

I have moved up to a way more expensive stereo setup now. But, still couldn't forget my journey. Whenever I see i people reviewing Uber expensive gear in untreated rooms, i just feel sorry for them.

Makes me wonder why our audiophile community keeps on neglecting acoustics treatment

While I fully agree with your findings. Not many of us have a dedicated room to get away with treatment. I managed to steal a room to myself, but it is really small. In the living room, my wife wont let me change anything. Thus, members with acoustic treatment are a minority on most forums generally.

 

[kratu]

When I did a proper acoustics treatment on my system ( just the midrange and highs), i found the inferior dac in my Denon AVR 3500 was so much enjoyable with lossy Youtube and polk RTi speakers. I was using Shiit Yggdrasil dac earlier in an completely untreated room earlier with much expensive keh studio monitors. Once I got my room treated, i completely forgot my stereo for about an year. That was how much it was enjoyable. An inferior gear in a treated room was so so much better than expensive gear in untreated room imo.

I have moved up to a way more expensive stereo setup now. But, still couldn't forget my journey. Whenever I see i people reviewing Uber expensive gear in untreated rooms, i just feel sorry for them.

Makes me wonder why our audiophile community keeps on neglecting acoustics treatment

That's so true. An inferior gear in an acoustically treated room is much better than expensive gear in an untreated room. Sparse rooms with marble floors, glass doors with basic curtains, etc. makes me cringe. They are clearly losing on the true potential of the system for which they spent their hard earned money. What is worse is that they keep switching amps and sources in search of improvement, while missing the elephant in the room (which is the room itself).

Gear isn't everything

I first realised this when I shifted my system from a sparse living room to a spare bedroom. This was used as a "store room" of sorts with a dump of bedding, clothes, stacks of books and what have you. When I switched it on, the difference was immediate. I was engrossed in the music till midnight. This is not an acoustically treated room but that random stuff greatly reduced echo and reverb, thereby enhancing clarity. Acoustic treatment doesn't necessarily need to look like a professional studio.

May be, this is a misunderstanding or lack of understanding of the art and science of acoustics.

 

[ashu87]

When I did a proper acoustics treatment on my system ( just the midrange and highs), i found the inferior dac in my Denon AVR 3500 was so much enjoyable with lossy Youtube and polk RTi speakers. I was using Shiit Yggdrasil dac earlier in an completely untreated room earlier with much expensive keh studio monitors. Once I got my room treated, i completely forgot my stereo for about an year. That was how much it was enjoyable. An inferior gear in a treated room was so so much better than expensive gear in untreated room imo.

I have moved up to a way more expensive stereo setup now. But, still couldn't forget my journey. Whenever I see i people reviewing Uber expensive gear in untreated rooms, i just feel sorry for them.

Makes me wonder why our audiophile community keeps on neglecting acoustics treatment

very interesting thread. could you please share some basic tips and tricks one can apply to make a room more acoustic without having to reconfigure the tiling and expensive wall kits.
Thanks!

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Many of us listen to our system in the living room and don’t want it to resemble a studio. Some use signal processing to compensate the room. The rest focus on the music and enjoy it rather than bothering for perfect sound.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Many of us listen to our system in the living room and don’t want it to resemble a studio. Some use signal processing to compensate the room. The rest focus on the music and enjoy it rather than bothering for perfect sound.

Well said... most of my listening these days is to youtube on the telly, via an ancient AVR going into some equally ancient floor standers.

 

[kratu]

Ranjeet Singh’s place is a nice example of an alternative “acoustic treatment”.

This listening space doesn’t resemble a studio but that wall of stuff and organised chaos works to diffuse and absorb those standing waves. Now, this isn’t practical for everyone and none of us might have that collection. Only the select few can afford such a man cave.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

Well said... most of my listening these days is to youtube on the telly, via an ancient AVR going into some equally ancient floor standers.

Ditto. Except I play it through Apple TV onto my only stereo system. Old Hindi songs sound far better in the videos than in the streaming apps (poorly remastered versions) and the videos add further tadka. Shemaroo, Ultra et al have done a great job uploading them. What more, you get to browse the comments which sometimes provide interesting tidbits on the song/its making.

 

[muralimmreddy]

Not all purchases are towards ultimate fidelity, it could for various reasons.

It's elitist view "expensive gear in untreated rooms wasting money, switching and accumulating gear etc" IMO ,

Many of us listen to our system in the living room and don’t want it to resemble a studio. Some use signal processing to compensate the room. The rest focus on the music and enjoy it rather than bothering for perfect sound.

I am off similar opinion. Would not want do treat room or keep it very minimal even if I have a dedicated room. I opted for horns (one of the reasons) that minimize the room interactions.

 

[matbhuvi]

very interesting thread. could you please share some basic tips and tricks one can apply to make a room more acoustic without having to reconfigure the tiling and expensive wall kits.
Thanks!

The first reflection points are crucial. The one immediately next to speaker and behind the listener. If you are listening at 6ft or less, then diffusers work well. There are so many aesthetically pleasing diffusers are available. Like Skyline diffusers. Bookshelves are decent as well.

Avoiding glass (windows, TV etc) can make a difference. Because glass almost act like a drum providing some harshness.

Curtains can cause a problem as well as they absorb highs and mids and lower octaves are reflected back. If you find your sound is bit too smooth or thick, this could be the reason. But it is better than nothing.

 

[Hari Iyer]

When I did a proper acoustics treatment on my system ( just the midrange and highs), i found the inferior dac in my Denon AVR 3500 was so much enjoyable with lossy Youtube and polk RTi speakers. I was using Shiit Yggdrasil dac earlier in an completely untreated room earlier with much expensive keh studio monitors. Once I got my room treated, i completely forgot my stereo for about an year. That was how much it was enjoyable. An inferior gear in a treated room was so so much better than expensive gear in untreated room imo.

I have moved up to a way more expensive stereo setup now. But, still couldn't forget my journey. Whenever I see i people reviewing Uber expensive gear in untreated rooms, i just feel sorry for them.

Makes me wonder why our audiophile community keeps on neglecting acoustics treatment

A very bold statement. Were you able to measure your room RT60 before and after room treatment? Typically based on your speaker type and room size RT60 may vary. For an OB type speakers an RT60 of 600msec is ok for a large room. But for smaller room the suggested RT60 is 450msec. Similarly if you have a box speaker in a smaller room then an RT60 of 300msec is typical.

In my room there is no room treatment, but I have managed an RT60 of 400msec at my standard listening position. Trying to achieve even a lower RT60 will be an overkill and make the sound stage very dull and boring. There is a very delicate balance of how much treatment is good for your room, over doing it may prove more harmful than beneficial.

 

[square_wave]

In my room there is no room treatment

Is your room just bare surfaces with no furniture ? If not, everything in your room may be acting as some form of room treatment. You can make a room sound pretty good with no professional acoustic treatment.

 

[square_wave]

From my experience, using a measurement-driven approach to treat the room with professionally designed materials by someone who has plenty of experience in treating 2-channel listening spaces will sound way better than a normal living room, no matter what you have in the room. However, I understand that this might not be practical for everyone.

However, it is very easy to go sideways or even wrong with professional treatment if you hire the wrong guy.

 

[Hari Iyer]

Is your room just bare surfaces with no furniture ? If not, everything in your room may be acting as some form of room treatment. You can make a room sound pretty good with no professional acoustic treatment.

I just have a standard room furniture like a sofa and a curtains on the windows. The L-shape also have a glass top dining table and a glass top center table. I can easily say that my room is 60% reflective 20% absorption and maybe only 20% diffusive. But I have never measured RT60 above 400msec in my small room. Also the D50 is very flat from 100hz to 10khz.

 

[Hari Iyer]

From my experience, using a measurement-driven approach to treat the room with professionally designed materials by someone who has plenty of experience in treating 2-channel listening spaces will sound way better than a normal living room, no matter what you have in the room. However, I understand that this might not be practical for everyone.

However, it is very easy to go sideways or even wrong with professional treatment if you hire the wrong guy.

Having a professional for room treatment at home could some time be fatal as most of them are from studio treatment background and would approach your listening room in a similar fashion. Also there could be some hidden agenda to sell some treatment materials so that you are happy that he has done some work.
The first reflection point is very important for getting directional cues in your room. If you absorb that, then its completely lost and can never br recovered else where. If first reflection is very strong it needs to be diffused. Adding too much of bass traps at the corners might absorb midbass too much giving a null in response in the midbass region. In most standard listening rooms, standard furniture should be good enough. If not there could actually be issues else where and not related to room treatment per say. Someone in another forum had once quoted- if your room is good enough for normal conversation for your family, then it should also be good for most music too.

 

[square_wave]

Having a professional for room treatment at home could some time be fatal as most of them are from studio treatment background and would approach your listening room in a similar fashion. Also there could be some hidden agenda to sell some treatment materials so that you are happy that he has done some work.
The first reflection point is very important for getting directional cues in your room. If you absorb that, then its completely lost and can never br recovered else where. If first reflection is very strong it needs to be diffused. Adding too much of bass traps at the corners might absorb midbass too much giving a null in response in the midbass region. In most standard listening rooms, standard furniture should be good enough. If not there could actually be issues else where and not related to room treatment per say. Someone in another forum had once quoted- if your room is good enough for normal conversation for your family, then it should also be good for most music too.

Agree with you. You need a pro who knows what he/she is doing for two channel. However, if done right, they outperform living rooms with no professional treatment. I have heard a few of these rooms myself at homes. They are nothing like home theatre rooms. Just the right materials positioned correctly.

Totally respect your opinion on this. But in my experience, given the same system, a room done right using professional treatment methods and materials will yield better results than normal sofa, carpet, bookshelves, curtains etc. All those are "non-professional treatment materials" with diffusion and absorption properties that can be measured and but jut happen to be placed haphazardly in the room. Not sure how or why they are the magic potion that is better positioned to treat room anomalies

 

[Hari Iyer]

Agree with you. You need a pro who knows what he/she is doing for two channel. However, if done right, they outperform living rooms with no professional treatment. I have heard a few of these rooms myself at homes. They are nothing like home theatre rooms. Just the right materials positioned correctly.

Totally respect your opinion on this. But in my experience, given the same system, a room done right using professional treatment methods and materials will yield better results than normal sofa, carpet, bookshelves, curtains etc. All those are "non-professional treatment materials" with diffusion and absorption properties that can be measured and but jut happen to be placed haphazardly in the room. Not sure how or why they are the magic potion that is better positioned to treat room anomalies

Imo, room treatment will be req only if you are using a box speaker in a small room and you get an RT60 of greater than 500msec. YMMV.

 

[mbhangui]

Someone in another forum had once quoted- if your room is good enough for normal conversation for your family, then it should also be good for most music too.

I would want to differ here. Normal conversation from family is from single point sources. It reaches your ears first before any reflection. Music from non-mono speakers is vastly different. The sound waves from the left speaker has to reach your left ear exactly at the same time as the sound wave from the right speaker to your right ear. Any reflection/diffusion causes phase/timing difference between the left and right sound waves, which is enough for our ear/brain to catch that the sound is unnatural. Splitting the sound into left and right is fraught with practical issues caused by reflections. Only a proper sound treatment can lessen (not eliminate) the effect of a room.

 

[Hari Iyer]

I would want to differ here. Normal conversation from family is from single point sources. It reaches your ears first before any reflection. Music from non-mono speakers is vastly different. The sound waves from the left speaker has to reach your left ear exactly at the same time as the sound wave from the right speaker to your right ear. Any reflection/diffusion causes phase/timing difference between the left and right sound waves, which is enough for our ear/brain to catch that the sound is unnatural. Splitting the sound into left and right is fraught with practical issues caused by reflections. Only a proper sound treatment can lessen (not eliminate) the effect of a room.

You will hear an echo or strong reverberation only if RT60 is greater than 500msec + for a small room for a box speaker. For RT60 below that normal room furnishing should be good enough is my point. If RT60> 500msec+ even normal conversation will be filled with an echo. Next time you visit any completely empty room try conversing in that and you will actually hear reverberation and echo. Check yourself.

 

[square_wave]

Imo, room treatment will be req only if you are using a box speaker in a small room and you get an RT60 of greater than 500msec. YMMV.

What about large reference grade rooms with full freq range large top of the line speakers? Will they perform to their full potential in a normal living room?
I know people who spend more on the room than speakers. And they will not have it any other way.