Why there is little focus on acoustics

[prem]

With a large room, I would definitely not try room treatment. It’s much easier to set up systems in a large room. And if ceilings are high, even better. Having said that I would definitely have a carpet, some bookshelves on the side walls and some sofas/cushions in the room.

In my present room, I listen at a distance of 9 ft. So it’s not as near field as you would imagine.

 

[square_wave]

I have too many questions to this but I refrain from asking them
Maybe over a beer when we meet next.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

I have too many questions to this but I refrain from asking them
Maybe over a beer when we meet next.

Beer is for cables, room treatment should be discussed over a single malt

 

[prem]

Square_wave, I work on one very simple principle. In every room there is one point where the speakers integrate and sing with the room. I try and identify this point. Once it’s done the need for room treatment becomes extremely minimal.

In my room, irrespective of the speaker I use, the position of the speaker is always the same.

A few months back i did this exercise in Arjun’s room. I think he’s quite happy with the sound now.

 

[square_wave]

Over a single malt indulgence at the behest of our dear friend,

Prem, I know that point. After some laborious movement of the speakers and subsequent listening, you reach that point where the speaker locks in firmly with the room. You then get a sound that does not trigger any of the room modes.

However, Isnt that a given when it comes to correct loudspeaker setup ? Once you have reached that position, if you are sitting far away, can't you improve upon the sound by treating reflections and echo if there are any ? Bookshelves usually help. But I have noticed that really well engineered panels work better. Also you can tune with different types because there is some science behind them unlike a random bookshelf filled with books with unknown acoustic properties.

In many rooms, the speaker position for best soundstage will not give you the best bass response. What happens then ? I understand that in your room, everything falls into place at a particular position.

 

[prem]

Square_wave if such a situation arises, I would opt for multiple subwoofers in the room. Ideally 4. That should take care of bass problems and also pressurise the room. You can read about Swarm Subwoofer system by Duke of Audio Kinesis. Since I am using a single driver now with limited bass capabilities, I might get Duke to design a sub system for me. I am already in touch with him and are in discussion.

I normally don’t like any part of signal getting absorbed. I prefer to get the full signal and manage it as well as possible.

There are as they say many roads that lead to Rome. My path is this. I am sure there are many such equally effective paths. Each one has to discover their own path.

 

[Yelamanchili manohar]

Square_wave if such a situation arises, I would opt for multiple subwoofers in the room. Ideally 4. That should take care of bass problems and also pressurise the room. You can read about Swarm Subwoofer system by Duke of Audio Kinesis. Since I am using a single driver now with limited bass capabilities, I might get Duke to design a sub system for me. I am already in touch with him and are in discussion.

I normally don’t like any part of signal getting absorbed. I prefer to get the full signal and manage it as well as possible.

There are as they say many roads that lead to Rome. My path is this. I am sure there are many such equally effective paths. Each one has to discover their own path.

I love the idea of getting a custom swarm system designed and calibrated for the room. Once the 20 to 100 hz region is ironed out completely flat to remove the room modes. Then this opens up the world to a ton of speaker options. Iam thinking on very similar lines at the moment. To install a permanent bass system in the room. And then add speakers to taste on top. This should ideally give a larger scale, huge dynamic headroom and impact I expect.

 

[kratu]

For me, I would synthesise into simple set of questions:

Does the room’s size/shape and its contents influence the sound? YES (in capitals)
Does any kind of acoustic treatment make a difference with the sound? YES
Does it change the vocal clarity, soundstage, imaging, timing and bass tightness of the sound? Yes
Does this change is of priority to everyone? May be not
Does it influence the tone, timbre and transients? May be not
Does everyone like the so-called “dead” room which is analytical? No

So, like everything in music it all comes down to subjective preference. One may choose to apply and tune their room to their liking. If one starts with an acoustic treatment and intentionally chooses to dismantle it gradually to their preference, it is their choice. It is all about intentionality and taking sensible decisions which is backed by both rational and subjective preference. A mix of art and science, so to speak. Understanding the mechanics of sound is important and choosing to ignore is not sensible. One loses out a lot of potential.
YMMY

 

[square_wave]

Square_wave if such a situation arises, I would opt for multiple subwoofers in the room. Ideally 4. That should take care of bass problems and also pressurise the room. You can read about Swarm Subwoofer system by Duke of Audio Kinesis. Since I am using a single driver now with limited bass capabilities, I might get Duke to design a sub system for me. I am already in touch with him and are in discussion.

I normally don’t like any part of signal getting absorbed. I prefer to get the full signal and manage it as well as possible.

There are as they say many roads that lead to Rome. My path is this. I am sure there are many such equally effective paths. Each one has to discover their own path.

Totally understand. I have read up about the Swarm many years ago. Duke is a genius.

I also don't like to mess with any part of the signal especially above the bass region. It changes things. That is why I never liked DSP. Even with treatments, I like to tread gingerly and judiciously in such a way so as to just remove excessively generated waves due to the nature of reflections in a problematic room. Like you said, there are multiple ways to address the problem. I have noticed judicious use of well designed diffusors and / or absorbers to solve the issues to my satisfaction in many rooms. The wrong kind can totally kill the life in music as well. But like you said, for some people it may do something to their music and they may not like it at all.

I love the idea of getting a custom swarm system designed and calibrated for the room. Once the 20 to 100 hz region is ironed out completely flat to remove the room modes. Then this opens up the world to a ton of speaker options. Iam thinking on very similar lines at the moment. To install a permanent bass system in the room. And then add speakers to taste on top. This should ideally give a larger scale, huge dynamic headroom and impact I expect.

Totally. You should get the Swarm if possible.

 

[Hari Iyer]

For me, I would synthesise into simple set of questions:

Does the room’s size/shape and its contents influence the sound? YES (in capitals)
Does any kind of acoustic treatment make a difference with the sound? YES
Does it change the vocal clarity, soundstage, imaging, timing and bass tightness of the sound? Yes
Does this change is of priority to everyone? May be not
Does it influence the tone, timbre and transients? May be not
Does everyone like the so-called “dead” room which is analytical? No

So, like everything in music it all comes down to subjective preference. One may choose to apply and tune their room to their liking. If one starts with an acoustic treatment and intentionally chooses to dismantle it gradually to their preference, it is their choice. It is all about intentionality and taking sensible decisions which is backed by both rational and subjective preference. A mix of art and science, so to speak. Understanding the mechanics of sound is important and choosing to ignore is not sensible. One loses out a lot of potential.
YMMY

If you read post #1 last sentence - it makes one feel that those who don't indulge in room treatment are missing a very important acoustic benefit - which I completely choose to disagree.

 

[square_wave]

If you read post #1 last sentence - it makes one feel that those who don't indulge in room treatment are missing a very important acoustic benefit - which I completely choose to disagree.

The discussion progressed further and if you look at the entire discussion in a different perspective, you may see that no one is suggesting that only professional room treatment works.

Anything inside a room is technically " room treatment ". There is an acoustical system that forms in all rooms that works in tandem with the loudspeakers and your ear. The goal is to make the best acoustical system that works for your expectations. You can use carefully chosen living room furniture and other such materials or use a mix of such materials along with professionally created panels etc. It is all upto you. I prefer a mix.

The OP was amazed at what treatment did to his system even though it was cheaper. His experience is very valid and in my opinion needs to be given adequate respect.

 

[kratu]

This was a great discussion and I have learnt few things along the way. Overall, there are strong arguments towards understanding the science of acoustics and treating a room (with or without professional "fittings").

 

[hardcore_gamer99]

When I did a proper acoustics treatment on my system ( just the midrange and highs), i found the inferior dac in my Denon AVR 3500 was so much enjoyable with lossy Youtube and polk RTi speakers. I was using Shiit Yggdrasil dac earlier in an completely untreated room earlier with much expensive keh studio monitors. Once I got my room treated, i completely forgot my stereo for about an year. That was how much it was enjoyable. An inferior gear in a treated room was so so much better than expensive gear in untreated room imo.

I have moved up to a way more expensive stereo setup now. But, still couldn't forget my journey. Whenever I see i people reviewing Uber expensive gear in untreated rooms, i just feel sorry for them.

Makes me wonder why our audiophile community keeps on neglecting acoustics treatment

where did u learn complete acoustics? can you help

 

[arj]

When I did a proper acoustics treatment on my system ( just the midrange and highs), i found the inferior dac in my Denon AVR 3500 was so much enjoyable with lossy Youtube and polk RTi speakers. I was using Shiit Yggdrasil dac earlier in an completely untreated room earlier with much expensive keh studio monitors. Once I got my room treated, i completely forgot my stereo for about an year. That was how much it was enjoyable. An inferior gear in a treated room was so so much better than expensive gear in untreated room imo.

I have moved up to a way more expensive stereo setup now. But, still couldn't forget my journey. Whenever I see i people reviewing Uber expensive gear in untreated rooms, i just feel sorry for them.

Makes me wonder why our audiophile community keeps on neglecting acoustics treatment

As many have mentioned Acoustics is a key focus to get the sound right. Since getting acoustics right can vary from Speaker placement to room treatments to electronic EQ and most serious folks have taken a preferred path to get there

As @prem mentioned speaker placement, This thread talks about the full experience

I have dabbled in room treatments and it has been a hit and miss for me ie while one hand giveth, another takes something away..and that has been my experience with any room with serious room treatments ie it make the sound wow but at the expense of the rawness or liveliness

But if done well by someone who knows and at the right amount I am very sure it can be great.

 

[square_wave]

As many have mentioned Acoustics is a key focus to get the sound right. Since getting acoustics right can vary from Speaker placement to room treatments to electronic EQ and most serious folks have taken a preferred path to get there

As @prem mentioned speaker placement, This thread talks about the full experience

I have dabbled in room treatments and it has been a hit and miss for me ie while one hand giveth, another takes something away..and that has been my experience with any room with serious room treatments ie it make the sound wow but at the expense of the rawness or liveliness

But if done well by someone who knows and at the right amount I am very sure it can be great.

Professional treatment gets a bad rep among audiophiles primarily due to them being widely misused or even overused. The first will steal something while giving you something. The latter will kill the room making it better for home theater rather than music.

The best way to do this is to make friends with some professional or knowledgeable dealer and explore. Most of the time, if you give an acoustics project to someone, they will need to sell you a lot of unnecessary stuff to make business sense for them and you land up with a dead room. An alternative approach , if you have the money, you can pay a nice amount to a really good professional and ask them for the results you want. That way they are not forced to make money from the materials they have to sell you. Pay for the overall solution and not for what they put on the walls

 

[prem]

Professional treatment gets a bad rep among audiophiles primarily due to them being widely misused or even overused. The first will steal something while giving you something. The latter will kill the room making it better for home theater rather than music.

The best way to do this is to make friends with some professional or knowledgeable dealer and explore. Most of the time, if you give an acoustics project to someone, they will need to sell you a lot of unnecessary stuff to make business sense for them and you land up with a dead room. An alternative approach , if you have the money, you can pay a nice amount to a really good professional and ask them for the results you want. That way they are not forced to make money from the materials they have to sell you. Pay for the overall solution and not for what they put on the walls

That’s the approach I took. But it still didn’t work out. Maybe my room doesn’t need it. God knows. But as you and the OP suggested people should try various room treatment options and check out for themselves. I don’t think there’s one universal solution. Each room will throw its own challenges.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

My comments are coming from what to expect when one is pushing the envelope with resolving components without constraints like WAF etc.

Appreciate how you staying steadfast with it and providing insights in jargon-free language for us all.

If you have a larger room with a lot of furnishing, and if you sit nearfield and keep the speakers away from the walls as much as possible, you may never need any treatment at all.

If I were to start building my system now, with the hindsight, I’d go for nothing more than 4 inch speakers for my 300 sqft living room, which is full of, hmmm… living. Or simply one of those AIO’s like MuSo, RS250 or the likes.

 

[rrunner]

https://www.soundton.com/

I find software like above to be a good starting point to analyze a room to get a ballpark figure on speaker placements especially in an assymetric room.

 

[matbhuvi]

A very bold statement. Were you able to measure your room RT60 before and after room treatment? Typically based on your speaker type and room size RT60 may vary. For an OB type speakers an RT60 of 600msec is ok for a large room. But for smaller room the suggested RT60 is 450msec. Similarly if you have a box speaker in a smaller room then an RT60 of 300msec is typical.

In my room there is no room treatment, but I have managed an RT60 of 400msec at my standard listening position. Trying to achieve even a lower RT60 will be an overkill and make the sound stage very dull and boring. There is a very delicate balance of how much treatment is good for your room, over doing it may prove more harmful than beneficial.

Sorry for late response. Holiday season..

When i did my acoustic treatment, i made lot of research, contacted lot of HT room installers, probed them with the nrc of the material they use for specific frequency range. Found that the most of the installers didn't even have any clue. Finally found one guy who atleast shared the absorption coefficients and talked about placing alternate absorption and diffusion panels. Even then i must admit that i didn't get it fully right. My RT60 was around 300 to 200. Typical HT treatment. I couldn't complain as i solved my primary problem. Ability to play the music loud even when my daughter is studying next room or my wife is watching TV in living room. Bass was not controlled at all. But, i found a sweet spot of appx 1sqft after proper speaker placement. That's when i found the joy of the music. That was so blissful that i forgot my much highend gear and let it sleep for an year.

https://imgur.com/a/9f8Fe3T

Over the next 2 years, i tuned it a bit to add QRD diffusers to add more air and increase sweetspot. Added bass tubes which helped immensely on the ripple effect that bass energy had on midrange.

Again, i am just sharing my journey as i thought people can get more high quality music with way less money.

 

[matbhuvi]

For me, I would synthesise into simple set of questions:

Does the room’s size/shape and its contents influence the sound? YES (in capitals)
Does any kind of acoustic treatment make a difference with the sound? YES
Does it change the vocal clarity, soundstage, imaging, timing and bass tightness of the sound? Yes
Does this change is of priority to everyone? May be not
Does it influence the tone, timbre and transients? May be not
Does everyone like the so-called “dead” room which is analytical? No

So, like everything in music it all comes down to subjective preference. One may choose to apply and tune their room to their liking. If one starts with an acoustic treatment and intentionally chooses to dismantle it gradually to their preference, it is their choice. It is all about intentionality and taking sensible decisions which is backed by both rational and subjective preference. A mix of art and science, so to speak. Understanding the mechanics of sound is important and choosing to ignore is not sensible. One loses out a lot of potential.
YMMY

Does it influence the tone, timbre and transients? -- This is the biggest difference in treated rooms. Every reflection will create a ripple effect which can impact the tone, timbre and transients. It can add more energy or cancel out and create nulls depending on your listening position. I never realized earlier that treating for bass will help your midrange. Treating for higher frequency improves the clarity.