If you are saying single point sources won't require any treatment, then if using only the left or right speaker will make them single point sources. If using as single point source, makes your room sound good and if adding a stereo makes the room require a treatment, then its a speaker placement issue and not a room treatment issue - imo
Why there is little focus on acoustics
- Thread starter matbhuvi
- Start date
A speaker is installed in a room based on its room size. I cannot install a Wilson audio top of the line speaker in my room even if my budget allows me to purchase them as they require a minimum seating distance of 11 feet from them. Also space behind thecspeakers will be an issue in a mumbai type home. If you are buying speakers like that then even a room treatment can't be of much help here.
Rooms will always cause speaker placement issues. I will give you my own example. I use a spare bedroom as my den. This room is 13ft x 12ft. One end of the room has full length sliding windows. I sit with the back facing the windows. At the other end is a small bathroom 6ft x5ft. So the room becomes L shaped. A large 65" Plasma TV which has the front made of real glass (not the LCD, OLED kind of screens). The speakers which are placed have an asymmetrical position because of the L shaped room. Practical constraints do not allow me to place the speakers elsewhere. Regardless of acoustic treatment, speech in the room always sounded good with the reflective TV and the rear full length windows of glass. Stereo however was a different story. Even after few gruelling hours of speaker placement nothing much was achieved. The sound always stopped at the line where the TV was placed. It was only after doing acoustic treatment have I been able to get depth in the soundstage where sound goes even behind the tv and also have the speakers dissapear.
What I'm saying that in most Indian homes with normal furnitures, speech is never a problem, listening to songs on the mobile phone, small speaker is not a problem. But getting stereo playback rarely is perfect, regardless of the cost of the equipment. With the treatment even my humble AVR sounds as good (or even better after YPAO calibration) than other costlier equipments.
View facing the speakers
View facing the sitting/lying down position
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I think WAF (Wife Acceptance Factor).
I cannot even begin to imagine my wife's reaction if she were to come home and find the speakers in living room pulled out 6 feet from the rear wall, and sound absorbtion panels stuck everywhere.
I cannot even begin to imagine my wife's reaction if she were to come home and find the speakers in living room pulled out 6 feet from the rear wall, and sound absorbtion panels stuck everywhere.
Looking at the size of your pune home, in comparison my room is puny. Only savior is golden ratio of 16x10 feet. Btw, I am wondering why having such tall tower speakers and you are still looking for a sub? There may be some serious acoustic defect in the room due to which sub-bass is missing ? A good case study for scrutiny.
I have a sub and it is you can say 90% ok. It has been placed in the L shaped extension to the right of the bathroom. But it doesn't go below around 40. I need to measure the room and do have the UMIK mike. But I think installing REW and learning it could be a stretch for me. I would like to feel the rumble that you typically hear during an earthquake
IME, even -3dB at 50hz should be good enough if it's a low distortion and boom free. It's no point chasing 30hz with lot of boom and distortion.I have a sub and it is you can say 90% ok. It has been placed in the L shaped extension to the right of the bathroom. But it doesn't go below around 40. I need to measure the room and do have the UMIK mike. But I think installing REW and learning it could be a stretch for me. I would like to feel the rumble that you typically hear during an earthquake
That's right. That would be like caging a nightingale from the tree and expecting it to sing! I'd like to think that clarity is part of understanding the "acoustics". While it is not strictly an acoustic treatment, I believe the more breathing space room there is, the more it has lesser interaction with the room. Not a zero interaction but lesser.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Even if you have a room with golden ratio, have adequate normal furniture and carpet etc, and you have placed the greatest speaker in the best possible position in that room and tuned your listening chair position, you still can make your experience much better if you use professionally created panels and bass tuning devices to further tune the overall acoustic system in the room. But this needs to be done with utmost care. It is sheer magic.
Absolutely that acoustics play a major role in the final output of the speakers to the ears. The simplest test when you start is the clap test to check how much reflections are dominating. Not everyone is in a position to do extensive room treatment, however simple tricks like identifying problem locations and doing some minimal treatment will improve the sound. Identifyin the best cross section of the wall is the most critical. Often, the longer side of the wall will be more suitable. Rear wall (wall behing the speaker) is a major caveat. It can augment bass depending on your speaker design. In my previous accomodation, I had tall French windows that lay right behind my speakers which was beneficial and did not need any further treatment. In the current space the rear wall is full concrete and I am contrained in not being able to go beyond 2 feet from them. So I need to work out some solutions now to control the lingering bass notes.
For someone like me, using the drawing room for listening, the furniture plays an important role in augmenting the sound.
Speaker placement is truly challenging, especially when you do not have a dedictad space for the same. A foot here or there can dramtically change the final output as perceived by the ears with respect to the frequencies, imaging and stage.
For someone like me, using the drawing room for listening, the furniture plays an important role in augmenting the sound.
Speaker placement is truly challenging, especially when you do not have a dedictad space for the same. A foot here or there can dramtically change the final output as perceived by the ears with respect to the frequencies, imaging and stage.
Yes, Golden ratio alone will not suffice. It makes the job easier for room treatment and extend the possibilities.
Yelamanchili manohar
Well-Known Member
I think my wife will more readily agree to a young girl friend in my life than a big speaker in the living room
square_wave
Well-Known Member
A big change one will notice when you move to a properly treated 2 channel listening room is that you can raise the volume level of your music system without the room shouting at you uncovering details and cues that was not so obvious previously. Also, many people who are not used to this phenomenon will immediately think there is lack of dynamics at low volume levels especially people who are not constantly used to attending live unamplified concerts. In totally untreated rooms, there is a lot of micro levels of shouting going on which one gets used to and think that is some kind of “liveliness “ and “dynamics”. This is quite untrue. Ask any trained sound engineer.
But I also agree that all this is also a matter of personal preference.
Many traditional loudspeaker manufacturers also voice speakers to sound best in normal untreated rooms so treatment can further damp the sound. Home hifi as a product range is a different kettle of fish due to the varying environments they reside in.
So, I guess one need to experiment and see what works for them.
My comments are coming from what to expect when one is pushing the envelope with resolving components without constraints like WAF etc.
But I also agree that all this is also a matter of personal preference.
Many traditional loudspeaker manufacturers also voice speakers to sound best in normal untreated rooms so treatment can further damp the sound. Home hifi as a product range is a different kettle of fish due to the varying environments they reside in.
So, I guess one need to experiment and see what works for them.
My comments are coming from what to expect when one is pushing the envelope with resolving components without constraints like WAF etc.
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What has always worked for me is diagonal room placement in terms of tone, dynamics, imaging, soundstage and above all practicality of speaker placement w.r.t. obstruction of TV viewing, moving around in the room with minimal room obstruction and listening position on my sofa. Also opening my window while playing music has always helped sub bass frequency in timing, articulation and punch. YMMV.
muralimmreddy
Well-Known Member
I hate the idea of sweet spot, and prefer the sounds that is right throughout the room as I walk around. Heck i know something is going right in my chain for my taste (natural and live sounding) when i hear good tone, timbre from adjacent rooms 
, which i believe is reverberant sound.
Wonder if optimizing the "direct sound" with room treatment will rob the natural sounds
, which i believe is reverberant sound. Wonder if optimizing the "direct sound" with room treatment will rob the natural sounds
square_wave
Well-Known Member
Recreating stereo in a home environment is a compromise every which way you look at it. So if you optimise for sweet spot listening, it will sound best only in that spot. Depending upon dispersion characteristics of the loudspeaker, you can make the sweet spot wider.I hate the idea of sweet spot, and prefer the sounds that is right throughout the room as I walk around. Heck i know something is going right in my chain for my taste (natural and live sounding) when i hear good tone, timbre from adjacent rooms
Wonder if optimizing the "direct sound" with room treatment will rob the natural sounds
If you like good sound throughout the room, the best option is an omni directional speaker. The below are a good list.
Ohm Acoustics
German Physiks
MBL
Mirage (out of business; still available used)
Linkwitz Labs (LX Mini is a hybrid omni)
Duevel
Morrison Audio
Even with such speakers, bass frequencies sound different when you sit in different areas of any room. Even in rooms with the golden ratio, people typically position the loudspeaker and listening chair for optimal soundstage (mids and highs), timing etc. With some speakers, this position may not yield the best bass response while seated in the chair. So, you may need to tweak bass response by bass traps, multiple subs etc for optimal bass. This is a common problem. You can never achieve even bass response at all positions in a room.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
This is quite true. If you have a larger room with a lot of furnishing, and if you sit nearfield and keep the speakers away from the walls as much as possible, you may never need any treatment at all.
However, such setups are limited at the spl levels. You also miss out on some of the visceral level interaction that you get at reference spl levels. But then again, many listeners don't even want to go there.
I mainly listen to Bollywood, Indian classical, classic rock, fusion, jazz and acoustic. In the past I have had professional room treatment done with Real Traps. I have had Rives Audio also do room correction. I have had Franck Tchang entire set of 9 resonators with guidance from him on set up. But at the end of the day I have always gone back to an untreated room with proper speaker placement. While these room treatment options did something good, they also took away something. Invariably I found timing and timbre going a bit awry.
square_wave
Well-Known Member
If you moved your system to a fairly big dedicated listening room, would you approach it the same way ? I presume your current listening is quite nearfield.
I know people who moved their system to such spaces and their overall approach changed. And the final result was much better than the older living room setup.
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