Yet another speaker suggestion thread!!

[SwaroopKS]

For stereo applications, sure. For HT, I'd give them a pass. These are all music first speakers. They need a really good room and equipment to sound their best. For the whizzes and bangs of home theater, I don't think anyone cares for a critical listening speaker.

A Cadence was the first serious speaker I had ever heard, way back in 2000! I think it was in Ness Pesikaka's house in Chennai. The sound did move me, though I knew very little of high end audio. I can't ever imagine using them for HT though.

That is not completely true though. Room treatment and acoustics play a role for any speaker to sound their best, many consider it even more prominently for HT than for stereo. While I do agree they are music first speakers, they definitely have the dynamic scale to be used in HT as well. I have seen many set-ups where the front LR channels were such speakers. Compromise for pure HT speakers can be only if budget is a constraint in my opinion.

Acoustic portrait offers HT package of their speakers. The scanspeak are very versatile drivers. Cadence and Acoustic portrait can definitely be used for HT, Rethm maybe less likely. I do not say this with limited audition experience but I own speakers from these 3 brands and used them thoroughly in stereo set-up for music and movie watching.

If HT is the pure requirement, then there is one brand that needs definite consideration: Definitive technology. I found their HT amazing for movie experience.

 

[DB1989]

That is not completely true though. Room treatment and acoustics play a role for any speaker to sound their best, many consider it even more prominently for HT than for stereo. While I do agree they are music first speakers, they definitely have the dynamic scale to be used in HT as well. I have seen many set-ups where the front LR channels were such speakers. Compromise for pure HT speakers can be only if budget is a constraint in my opinion.

Acoustic portrait offers HT package of their speakers. The scanspeak are very versatile drivers. Cadence and Acoustic portrait can definitely be used for HT, Rethm maybe less likely. I do not say this with limited audition experience but I own speakers from these 3 brands and used them thoroughly in stereo set-up for music and movie watching.

If HT is the pure requirement, then there is one brand that needs definite consideration: Definitive technology. I found their HT amazing for movie experience.

A very relevant topic! What is exactly needed for good HT sound vs Stereo sound vis-a-vis loudspeakers

People usually use this distinction insofar as subwoofers are concerned using characteristics such as scale, frequency extension, etc.

What are the parameters insofar as loudspeakers are concerned?

 

[prateekatasniya]

Guys, I've been doing quite a bit of research to select loudspeakers for my HT project (on the forum and other sources as well) and prepared a list of 7 speaker lines so that I can audition them and decide on the final winner.

I have allocated 2.5L for speakers (subs and electronics excluded) with another 50-75k as buffer. This if for 3 floorstanders (identical LCR), 4 bookshelves and 4 in ceiling speakers for a 7.x.4 layout.

My planned room measurements are 20 x 12 x 8 feet. (Dropped a bit on the dimensions owing to existing structural design)

I'm primarily looking at these:

1. Arendal Sound (Need to check the prices if they fall with in my budget)

2. Paradigm Premier/Monitor

3. Dali Oberon

4. XTZ Spirit

5. Q Acoustics 3050i/concept 40

6. RBH R55

7. Mission QX/ZX

Please share your views on this list and kindly add if any other lines need to be considered.

Identical LCR doesn't mean one uses floor Standers. ( This would be considered a 'jugaad' instead of a professional setup)

Another drawback is floor Standers are sold in pairs. So one speaker will be wasted.

 

[prateekatasniya]

A very relevant topic! What is exactly needed for good HT sound vs Stereo sound vis-a-vis loudspeakers

People usually use this distinction insofar as subwoofers are concerned using characteristics such as scale, frequency extension, etc.

What are the parameters insofar as loudspeakers are concerned?

Dynamics is the biggest criteria.
REAL high sensitivity( specially in mid bass ) is needed ( not false sensitivity claims made by a brand which starts from K )

Read again - REAL HIGH SENSITIVITY

 

[Bharadwaj Bunga]

Identical LCR doesn't mean one uses floor Standers. ( This would be considered a 'jugaad' instead of a professional setup)

Well, I've seen many HT setups with 3 floor standers in some reputed international forums. Would you please care to explain what are the deterrents to use 3 FSs as LCRs? Asking this in a learning point of view!

 

[DB1989]

Dynamics is the biggest criteria.
REAL high sensitivity( specially in mid bass ) is needed ( not false sensitivity claims made by a brand which starts from K )

I have some experience with the said brand's exaggerated sensitivity claims, specifically with respect to the RP600M. While claimed sensitivity is 96db, my 90db rated floorstanders (Quad S5) play louder. Again, could this be due to the larger array of drivers of the Quad (1Xtweeter, 1xmid, 2xbass) compared to the RP600M (1Xtweeter, 1xmidbass)?

P.S.- despite the exaggerated claims, it's still the highest sensitivity loudspeaker I've heard.

Read again - REAL HIGH SENSITIVITY

So as a thumb rule, is it safe to assume that low sensitivity speakers are not good in the mid bass region?

 

[prateekatasniya]

P.S.- despite the exaggerated claims, it's still the highest sensitivity loudspeaker I've heard.

Actual sensitivity of that speaker is 88.
You must try to hear something which is in the range of 93-95db sensitive.
Then you will understand why it matters so much.

 

[prateekatasniya]

Well, I've seen many HT setups with 3 floor standers in some reputed international forums. Would you please care to explain what are the deterrents to use 3 FSs as LCRs? Asking this in a learning point of view!

Floor Standers are mainly made for music reproduction without a Subwoofer and not to perform as a LCR.
Floor Standers go lower, and to achieve this sensitivity has to be sacrificed. ( Which is not needed in case of cinema use )
Choose something which fulfills the criteria of LCR use.

 

[prateekatasniya]

I have some experience with the said brand's exaggerated sensitivity claims, specifically with respect to the RP600M. While claimed sensitivity is 96db, my 90db rated floorstanders (Quad S5) play louder. Again, could this be due to the larger array of drivers of the Quad (1Xtweeter, 1xmid, 2xbass) compared to the RP600M (1Xtweeter, 1xmidbass)?

If you understand the laws of physics in relation to audio playback, just by seeing the speaker you can say that rp600m claims are rubbish.
And your quad is louder because it is actually 90db sensitive.

 

[Naveenbnc]

I have some experience with the said brand's exaggerated sensitivity claims, specifically with respect to the RP600M. While claimed sensitivity is 96db, my 90db rated floorstanders (Quad S5) play louder. Again, could this be due to the larger array of drivers of the Quad (1Xtweeter, 1xmid, 2xbass) compared to the RP600M (1Xtweeter, 1xmidbass)?

P.S.- despite the exaggerated claims, it's still the highest sensitivity loudspeaker I've heard.


So as a thumb rule, is it safe to assume that low sensitivity speakers are not good in the mid bass region?

When the graph is not so linear, at some places it goes high. At that point some brands mention their sensitivity is high....clever fellows Lol !!!!

 

[prateekatasniya]

A very relevant topic! What is exactly needed for good HT sound vs Stereo sound vis-a-vis loudspeakers

People usually use this distinction insofar as subwoofers are concerned using characteristics such as scale, frequency extension, etc.

What are the parameters insofar as loudspeakers are concerned?

Example of a Good HT speaker design.

The 10 PASSIVE ON WALL

www.aia-cinema.com

 

[prateekatasniya]

When the graph is not so linear, at some places it goes high. At that point some brands mention their sensitivity is high....clever fellows Lol !!!!

Not just that..
They created their own standard..( to mislead)
They share in room sensitivity.

 

[Vineethkumar01]

Here is Erin's take on the subject of hifi vs hometheater speakers:

 

[Naveenbnc]

Here is Erin's take on the subject of hifi vs hometheater speakers:

Good one...Not sure if he showed in this video, but Erin himself purchased old JBL speakers from an old theater and using in his personal theater. Surely he is not using fancy hifi speakers for theater .....

 

[Vineethkumar01]

Good one...Not sure if he showed in this video, but Erin himself purchased old JBL speakers from an old theater and using in his personal theater. Surely he is not using fancy hifi speakers for theater .....

This one has all details about Erin's home theatre:

As you pointed out, he uses JBL (CD+horn) + 15 inch woofer based set up for speakers.
As has been pointed out in this thread by others, typical 'hifi' driver-based speaker set ups wont be good enough for reproducing dynamics or EQability as they will pretty soon hit the thermal limits when in use.
Here is a reply by Kimmo Saunisto when I asked him about how to identify drivers that are capable of reproducing good dynamics (I asked this in the context of music reproduction but the answer is valid for home theatre as well):

"Identifying dynamic drivers without measurements is partly guessing. Drivers with high efficiency produce less heat per Pascal so relative thermal compression should be low if motor has also proper ventilation. High efficiency is produced with large and light enough cone, strong motor and low mechanical and electrical losses. High maximum SPL requires also some excursion capacity though cone area or possible horn compensates that."

The above criteria is mostly only satisfied by good pro-audio drivers, due to the following reasons that he mentioned:
" because hifi-drivers are focusing to LF extension and resonance handling. Some manufacturers prefer low mechanical losses which is good but BL could be low, voice coil quite small and not so perfectly ventilated"

Their are seemingly much better pro audio drivers than JBL though.

Thanks
Vineeth

 

[DB1989]

If you understand the laws of physics in relation to audio playback, just by seeing the speaker you can say that rp600m claims are rubbish.
And your quad is louder because it is actually 90db sensitive.

Apparently the Quad S5s are rated quite conservatively as a certain publication measured it and found the sensitivity to be 92db (91.9db to be exact). Same publication determined the Klipsch RP600M to be 88.3db and that it is a 4ohm design despite Klipsch's vague claim of it being 8ohm.

I have a pair of PSB Alpha P5s and they are also rated at 89db which seems to be correct as they play equally loud to the Klipschs at the same volume on the amp. Its a wonder how they managed to eek out that much sensitivity from these tiny speakers when a pair of them are smaller than a single Klipsch RP600M. At the same time, they have good perceived bass response though I am yet to measure them. I am vaguely aware that higher the sensitivity in a smaller cabinet and driver combo, the lesser the bass extension. But the P5s sure seem to push the laws of physics to their limits!

 

[sandeepmohan]

Compromise for pure HT speakers can be only if budget is a constraint in my opinion.

I'll agree to that. Isn't that a constraint for most?
>8 lacs sounds rather grotesque but hey, I spent a little over half that for my stereo (8 years ago) so I am in the same camp. Makes for an epic project with no limits or constraints you need to work to.

What you also need to remember is the power requirements of a high end loudspeaker. Do you think it justifies driving a Cadence or Rethem loudspeaker with an AVR? God no. They'll barely wake up. Home Theater demands are a bit like classical music. Depending on the conductor, you have varying peaks or dynamics. This is a lot easier to control and setup in stereo where you're dealing with two channels. In HT, its a different ball game. You have two difficult to drive, high end speakers up front and the rest made up of cheap boxes. You'll find that the current is simply insufficient to drive all of them during peak demands. Distortion sets in before the gain can even cross 50%. They fall apart, easily. Not to forget, the difficulty in being able to integrate them well. Forget 11 channels, getting a 5 channel setup and sounding well is a challenge in itself.

Its a lot easier to find traditional loudspeakers from brands like Definitive (As you said) who sell tone and sensitivity matched loudspeakers, versus Rethm and the like, where you can get two excellent front channels and the rest will have to be tone matched to whatever you find in the market, as they don't make matching loud speakers for the remaining channels. Unless you don't mind a pair of monstrosity Bhaavas for the rears. That will be quite the HT set up for me.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

I have allocated 2.5L for speakers (subs and electronics excluded) with another 50-75k as buffer. This if for 3 floorstanders (identical LCR), 4 bookshelves and 4 in ceiling speakers for a 7.x.4 layout.

Hopefully, you've changed your mind by now about the need for floor standers for LCR.

My planned room measurements are 20 x 12 x 8 feet.

Decent size room. Not sure what you're planning, but you'd be able to just about fit a 150 in diagonal screen (scope) if you go wall to wall.

Do you have a layout for the proposed HT? If not, that'd be the first thing I'd do. That will be the basis for the calculations that determine whether your chosen speakers and amplification are sufficient to playback movies at the levels you want to. You'll still need to make assessments of speaker quality based on available measurements, subjective reviews, your own audition, end-end HT integrator recommendations or a combination thereof. Audio Advice have a decent free tool to help get started with a layout.

What criteria did you use to shortlist the 7 that you did? Sonodyne might be worth looking at too.

 

[Bharadwaj Bunga]

Hopefully, you've changed your mind by now about the need for floor standers for LCR.

Nearly there, I'm digging a bit deeper into this.

Do you have a layout for the proposed HT? If not, that'd be the first thing I'd do. That will be the basis for the calculations that determine whether your chosen speakers and amplification are sufficient to playback movies at the levels you want to. You'll still need to make assessments of speaker quality based on available measurements, subjective reviews, your own audition, end-end HT integrator recommendations or a combination thereof. Audio Advice have a decent free tool to help get started with a layout.

I have already made a layout using this tool. But how do I get to the calculations for speakers and amplification part?

Yes, I'm considering sonodyne too and other options suggested by Prateek.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

The primary requirements for a HT speaker are not that much different than a HT subwoofer, it requires peak output assuming one wants to go loud. Going loud is the fundamental here, otherwise any speaker/sub combo will do, you just need to focus on dialogue intelligibility. The "edge of your seat" feeling people get is high instantaneous peaks. As long as you can go loud and stay with mechanical limits it's not really a problem. I say mechanical because HT is not thermally demanding, especially not on speakers. As has been mentioned sensitivity helps with this. But then what is the difference between HT and music speakers? Like subs HT speakers require no finesse or tonal capacity, whereas music speakers are tuned to have tone and realism of instruments as well as soundstage HT speakers need only focus on dialogue clarity and sharp peaks, for this they usually have "hotter" treble and upper midrange. This is something that most music listeners would find highly objectionable and of poor quality. But in HT when these peaks are brief when used for effects it doesn't bother people as much as we need to remember that music is continuous while HT is not. Often in pro cinemas a CD is used for this on a horn to achieve sensitivity and appropriate coverage for the theater but a CD is not something everyone who listens to music (at home) will appreciate unless you use a quality one and even then you probably want to EQ it.

In the end HT speakers and subs are easy to do, they are not demanding and do not require the nuance demanded by music, as such I consider them to be poor quality speakers and subs designed for peak output and a sharp midrange and treble for vocal clarity.