Interesting Objective test on Cables

reignofchaos · Dec 5, 2012

sidvee said:
And to also think people criticize others without understanding how these cables may react in their systems with stock statements such as "xxxx" cables cost this much/their website says "blah, blah blah", so they are all snake oil. So essentially without listening to said cables in your own system - one has absolutely zero right to say/post anything, least of all criticize/berate someone else who actually has taken the pain to listen and/or buy the cables in question.

Cheers,
Sid

Absolutely true! I do not understand this attitude of writing off a product simply based on preconceived notions without actually trying it out. If it floats one's boat, great! Go ahead and get them if you wish. If they don't, tough luck - its time to move on. Many tweaking products like cables are available for trial so there's no buying involved either. It is the arm chair experts who read half information on the internet and drumroll the same that really annoy me.

Staxxx · Dec 5, 2012

reignofchaos said:
Absolutely true! I do not understand this attitude of writing off a product simply based on preconceived notions without actually trying it out. If it floats one's boat, great! Go ahead and get them if you wish. If they don't, tough luck - its time to move on. Many tweaking products like cables are available for trial so there's no buying involved either. It is the arm chair experts who read half information on the internet and drumroll the same that really annoy me.

Hear ! Hear ! +1 from me.

sidvee · Dec 5, 2012

Staxxx said:
..by the way if your Shakti stones are lying under your bed or somewhere...can I borrow them for a listen !

Thanks Staxxx - actually I tried this tweak a couple of years ago and since I did not hear appreciable improvement, I sold them off on the 'Gon.
Another really weird tweak I tried was this (the rainbow foil to be precise):
P.W.B. Electronics Home Page
Unfortunately this did not work too well either
Cheers,
Sid

sidvee · Dec 5, 2012

reignofchaos said:
It is the arm chair experts who read half information on the internet and drumroll the same that really annoy me.

Yes I concur ROC, that is my pet peeve as well. Anybody's personal experience is invaluable, but paraphrasing off the internet is really despicable.
Cheers,
Sid

Thad E Ginathom · Dec 5, 2012

It's what the internet's for, isn't it?

OK, I don't mean just to parrot, especially selected bits, but I have learnt so much from surfing sessions (that often start right here on hifivision) in the past few years. Actually, almost the majority of my slowly-growing technical knowledge of sound has been acquired during this time.

Even recently, I've learnt here (and from the given links) that sound that we cannot hear (eg above 20k, even considerably above it) can influence what we do hear. Shown experimentally. I never thought that was possible.

Preconceived ideas are only true until they get un-conceived

Is that despicable? Or is not despicable because it fits somebody else's different pre-conceived idea?

Come on... we all have preconceived ideas.

sidvee · Dec 6, 2012

Thad E Ginathom said:
Is that despicable?

Preconceived ideas - specifically in Audio and generally as well - are only despicable when they are passed off as informed, logical,scientific views of the person vehemently expressing these ideas at the cost of another who has actually gained real life knowledge by actually taking pains and expending resources to experience these ideas. They are even more despicable when they are used to dicredit/trash/ridicule others when the person making such statements should be subject to this treatment for making false statements- - based on ideas/opinions/viewpoints gleaned from the internet.
Simple debates are encouraged for learning, but it seldom happens - more of a trash slinging match ensues.
Cheers,
Sid

arj · Dec 6, 2012

+1 to sidvee on the above. I too really get irritated with posts having a strong view on any topic just based on some other posts on the internet...

Posts on the above with the intent to discuss and learn more are really interesting but sometimes you only see closed views with no actual experience....just some internet references and many of them years and years old !

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

ranjeetrain · Dec 6, 2012

Unfortunately, the ideas posted as a result of internet reading are too many to count. I sincerely wish people posted about "what they have experienced" vs "what they have read". In audio, it's very hard to understand where one is coming from unless they describe their experience about the gear they are talking about.

I like Audiogon. Most people only talk about what they have/heard or know about convincingly.

ranjeetrain · Dec 6, 2012

Staxxx said:
by the way if your Shakti stones are lying under your bed or somewhere...can I borrow them for a listen

sidvee said:
Thanks Staxxx - actually I tried this tweak a couple of years ago and since I did not hear appreciable improvement, I sold them off on the 'Gon.

I still have mine with me. I bought it as a trial, kept it aside for future use hoping that someday I will own some system where it will make a difference

You are welcome to borrow.

doors666 · Dec 6, 2012

reignofchaos said:
Absolutely true! I do not understand this attitude of writing off a product simply based on preconceived notions without actually trying it out.

Thats crap. I wont ever try the cable lifters, magic markers, vodoo dolls. I dont give a damn who says it makes a difference. If it doesnt make sense to me, I wont buy it. Just like I dont need to try heroin, crack cocaine etc to know they are no good.

About cables, I have limited experience. Havent tried the expensive stuff. I have a pretty resolving system (alpair speakers, topping, ODAC, essence, b1 pre). Have a decent ear (could hear a diff when I added b1 pre, can differentiate between odac and essence, different speakers, headphones etc). I replaced my cheap 100-300 bucks mx cables with diy cables. I used belden 1694 and 1505 cables (same stuff used by bluejean cables except connectors) with neutrik 373 connectors. I dont hear a difference. I gave up. I recently got some wire from apexjr, so might make a few more cables and give it another shot though.

maybe cables make a difference to bad systems.:lol:

So you see, I am talking from experience, not an arm chair critic. Though I am flexible, you are free to convert me by giving me a demo.

prem · Dec 6, 2012

Hi Doors666

Lifting speaker cables a little off the ground works. The principle is very simple. The bass from the speakers can excite the flooring which in turn excites the speaker cables lying on it. As a result there could be a little muddying of the sound.

This becomes very true for homes in US and Europe since their floorings are not concrete like ours. Most of our homes have a concrete flooring and hence the problem is pretty much not there.

You do not have to use any exotic cable lifters. Just simple wood blocks or ceramic mugs will do the trick

sidvee · Dec 6, 2012

doors666 said:
Thats crap. I wont ever try the cable lifters, magic markers, vodoo dolls. I dont give a damn who says it makes a difference.

That is fine - as long as you don't try telling a person who is using those things - that it is all crap, as you put it, simply because you have not experienced it.
Cheers,
Sid

sidvee · Dec 6, 2012

prem said:
Lifting speaker cables a little off the ground works. The principle is very simple. The bass from the speakers can excite the flooring which in turn excites the speaker cables lying on it. As a result there could be a little muddying of the sound.

This becomes very true for homes in US and Europe since their floorings are not concrete like ours. Most of our homes have a concrete flooring and hence the problem is pretty much not there.

Absolutely true and I have the exact same experience, but I continue to use my ceramic cable lifters on my carpeted concrete floor, here, because is makes vaccuming under the cables easy.
Cheers,
Sid

doors666 · Dec 6, 2012

sidvee said:
That is fine - as long as you don't try telling a person who is using those things - that it is all crap, as you put it, simply because you have not experienced it.
Cheers,
Sid

Dont get me wrong. the crap comment is for 'not saying something if I have not experienced it', its not for cables etc but a generic comment. I dont need to experience everything in the world to have an opinion on it.

So here's a question. there are plenty of people that say they hear a difference (including audio equipment designers). And on the other hand, there are plenty of people that say they dont hear a difference (including audio equipment designers). What separates these two groups, its not the system or ears I believe. Is there a pattern here?

doors666 · Dec 6, 2012

prem said:
Hi Doors666

Lifting speaker cables a little off the ground works. The principle is very simple. The bass from the speakers can excite the flooring which in turn excites the speaker cables lying on it. As a result there could be a little muddying of the sound.

Excite the flooring? I assume you are talking about vibrations and not electrically or magnetically exciting the cables. Usually they use wood or carpet for flooring in us/eu. I dont think carpet would get excited, wood might. even if it does and there is a little bit of vibration in the cable, how would that change the current or voltage going through it.

Have you heard the difference yourself or you use it simply because others say so on the net.

sidvee · Dec 6, 2012

doors666 said:
I dont need to experience everything in the world to have an opinion on it.

Absolutely - you are free to have your own opinion, but I tend to give more credit to a person who has experience vs an opinion. And since we are generalizing considering all things in the world - would you go to a surgeon who has a lot of experience for surgery or one who has an opinion on how the surgery has to be done - worse by googling it or reading on internet.

doors666 said:
So here's a question. there are plenty of people that say they hear a difference (including audio equipment designers). And on the other hand, there are plenty of people that say they dont hear a difference (including audio equipment designers). What separates these two groups, its not the system or ears I believe. Is there a pattern here?

Not sure that I quite follow your question doors666.
Cheers,
Sid

reignofchaos · Dec 6, 2012

doors666 said:
Thats crap. I wont ever try the cable lifters, magic markers, vodoo dolls. I dont give a damn who says it makes a difference. If it doesnt make sense to me, I wont buy it. Just like I dont need to try heroin, crack cocaine etc to know they are no good.

.

There you go - we have an armchair expert :lol::lol:

prem · Dec 6, 2012

Hi Doors 666

I am talking mechanical vibrations here. All my statements are based on my personal listening.

sidvee · Dec 6, 2012

doors666 said:
Usually they use wood or carpet for flooring in us/eu. I dont think carpet would get excited, wood might.

90% of the homes in the US - except florida, hawaii (and elsewhere where they have termite problems) are built using wooden frame. On top of the frame wooden boards are placed, and on top of this sub floor of boards finished flooring of either tiles, wood, linoleum or carpet is placed. Regardless of what the final finish layer is, mechanical vibration travels quite alarmingly through the wooden frame and is conveyed up through the 1 st layer of boards and into the finish layer and on upward. Consequently very vibration sensitive equipment such as TT's - that skip even when people walk floors adjoining the listening room - are recommended to be attached to wall mounted stands. So mechanical vibration in a US room is quite existent regardless of carpet and is a detriment to good sound. Also I have seen concrete floor in upper levels of homes/apartment in India vibrating because vibration can travel through steel I beams as well.
So any and all devices that help reduce/neutralize vibration, regardless of floor type will help IMO. Of-course what component is effected and what is not is, by how much, and is it audible is an individual's call, but simply stating that there is no vibration, or it does not matter is not an informed/logical statement.
Cheers,
Sid

arj · Dec 6, 2012

doors666 said:
Excite the flooring? I assume you are talking about vibrations and not electrically or magnetically exciting the cables. Usually they use wood or carpet for flooring in us/eu. I dont think carpet would get excited, wood might. even if it does and there is a little bit of vibration in the cable, how would that change the current or voltage going through it.

Have you heard the difference yourself or you use it simply because others say so on the net.

when i last researched it there was a science to it called the triboelectric effect where an electric charge is generated by high frequency rubbing between materials like those used in the shielding of cables and the cable itself. many audio companies (most famaous being Be Yamamura..an audio legend/recluse) who identified ways of removing it..I believe Prana Wire does it now...i guess they charge also for the research + knowing that they sell only low qtys try to make as much margin as they can

Leaving all that aside, there are perhaps even other scientific explanation to not having cables vibrate..especially those carrying Low Signals. While I could not find too much of a difference but then My system is not as resolving a system as those those who have found a difference.

But if several people have observed something then their might be something to investigate. and the Scientific approach would be to investigate..not castigate. if we all were closed to it then we would still be sure that the sun goes around the earth

"Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence "

Interesting Objective test on Cables

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