Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

[gopi]

Asit,
Are you interested in second hand gears. Also, whats your budget.
Recently, a friend of mine had put up his Quad 909 Poweramp for sale for a very nice price. However, he couldn't let it go So, dropped the idea. While you can pair an Arcam pre with a Quad 99 or something, I would think buying a well matched pre/power or integerated would be better choice for that price.
For less than a lakh some integerateds that I know off available in second hand currently: Plinius 9100, Krell KAV 400xi, Musical Fidelity A5, Primare I30, YBA Integere DT(less than 50k), Naim NAit 5i2 and even a Bryston Pre/Power combo for slightly above a lakh. I have heard most of these and I think the value presented by them in second hand market in India is very very good. However, if you would want to go only first hand then its different.

 

[Asit]

Hi gopi,

Thanks for your response. In principle, I have no problem of buying used if the product is not too old, the product is well-maintained and there is some way of knowing this.

About the Quads, I have just expressed my thoughts. I do not have experience with them. Let's see if anybody (including you) has any opinion on them.

About all the other used integrated gears you mentioned, they are all extremely reputed products, some are even legendary. Where are they getting sold, by whom, how to find out about them and so on? Off and on I see some sellers get them used and often from unknown sources (mostly from abroad) and just sell them here. Are those reliable products? I guess the answer to that is also very difficult.

The YBA you mentioned got to be pretty old to be priced under 50K, because the new ones are very pricey.

Anyway, let me just say that I am open to the idea. Others like dinyaar and roc have also suggested going the used way. My problem is how to go about this. Let's see.

 

[gopi]

Asit,
I have been searching for a good solution for the last two years and I can say that buying second hand offers a great alternative. Like you said the one and only thing that you should be aware of is the history of the product. For example , the Krell and the MF are from first hand owners in India and has been maintained very well. The rest are from abroad. But even there, Naim NAit 5i2 I have seen it and the piece can be easily called brand new. YBA sounds very good and its a third hand piece. When the history is not known even I tend to stay away from them. These are the options that I were considering for myself and hence I am aware of the price and the history of these products. If you are interested as well, PM me. See if it works for you. You never know which one will float your boat. Its just another option.

 

[neutral]

Dear Asit,
Buy used only in the following cases.
1. From a genuine user. Ideally a member of the forum who has some history of posting here and has a reputation at stake.
2. If you know the history of the product and the user.
3. If sourced from abroad, ask the seller to put you in touch with the original seller abroad and have a chat with him. The original seller should be a member of some reputed forum and a genuine user/ hifi enthusiast who has some reputation at stake at that forum.
This can ensure some kind of transparency about the gear. Be aware that some of the gear sold by these so-called resellers are refurbished crap. They have done the rounds.

 

[Asit]

Hi neutral,

thank you very much for your concern and advice. I think they are quite valuable. If I decide to buy anything used for a reasonable amount of money, I would definitely try to follow as much as possible what you have suggested.
The natural tendency is to believe another human being. I guess one has to be careful.

Regards

 

[Asit]

Hi dinyaar,

I was going thru old threads this evening and found that you really dislike Quad electronics. I certainly have not heard them, but there are really rave reviews (both from expert and actual users) on the 909. As a result I was thinking of pushing my budget a bit up and perhaps in two steps I could look at the quad pre and power. I would really like to know about them from you since that is the only opinion I could find about these in hifivision (at least as much as I could look).

In another old post I found you stating a Roksan Kandy LIII amp being almost as good as a Primare I30 at half the price. Is that true? That's then quite attractive. Can you kindly find out from your friend (Roksan importer) when he is going to get the new K2's? Or are they already there?

Also, if you have heard Arcam A28, which one would you prefer, an A28 or a Kandy? What hifi guys seem to find a fault with arcam amps for the last year or so. But I have to believe my own ears. From whatever little I have listened to an arcam amp, I liked it.

I am not going to buy in a hurry and also not without audition. I make business trips (not too often) to other cities, for example, to Mumbai and can audition there too, once I have made my list reasonably small.

Some of the dealers must have some of their clients hit by the upgrade bug, this may be a great way of getting hold of some gear from audiophiles' homes at reasonable cost. My problem is that Kolkata seems to be free of that bug and I have no contacts out of town. So this is meant also for all the dealers who may be reading this post.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi dinyaar,

I was going thru old threads this evening and found that you really dislike Quad electronics. I certainly have not heard them, but there are really rave reviews (both from expert and actual users) on the 909. As a result I was thinking of pushing my budget a bit up and perhaps in two steps I could look at the quad pre and power. I would really like to know about them from you since that is the only opinion I could find about these in hifivision (at least as much as I could look).

In another old post I found you stating a Roksan Kandy LIII amp being almost as good as a Primare I30 at half the price. Is that true? That's then quite attractive. Can you kindly find out from your friend (Roksan importer) when he is going to get the new K2's? Or are they already there?

Also, if you have heard Arcam A28, which one would you prefer, an A28 or a Kandy? What hifi guys seem to find a fault with arcam amps for the last year or so. But I have to believe my own ears. From whatever little I have listened to an arcam amp, I liked it.

I am not going to buy in a hurry and also not without audition. I make business trips (not too often) to other cities, for example, to Mumbai and can audition there too, once I have made my list reasonably small.

Some of the dealers must have some of their clients hit by the upgrade bug, this may be a great way of getting hold of some gear from audiophiles' homes at reasonable cost. My problem is that Kolkata seems to be free of that bug and I have no contacts out of town. So this is meant also for all the dealers who may be reading this post.

Hi Asit,
Regarding the quad amps i do not remember not liking the power amp. Unless in the said thread it was compared to something i preferred. The quad power amps are quite good its the preamp i dont like. They are not something i would buy.
Yes the tonality of the Roksan Kandy was superb, but it lacked the drive in my set up. Had to really crank it to get the combo to play loud and it sounded a little stretched by then. Secondly u cant adjust the input gains and the tapedeck playback was poor thru the amp(even my old Rotel Integrated sounded more robust) In my opinion its quite close to the primare in tonality and if u have a speaker thats an easier load it would perform at par with the primare. U end up saving money + get a more reliable amplifier.(Primare amp is reputed to be quirky and i have heard of a few that failed)
Yes Roksan is distributed by a friend Mr. Colah(98192 57839). U could call him and confirm stock details. If there is any problem i will surely help in any way i can.
Yes i have heard Arcam A28 & A38 and have read the What Hi Fi reviews on the product. These amps are superbly built, great features, 5 year warranty and very nice sound. I do not find them dull/bland in any way. Find a speaker to match them and am sure u too will find the amplifiers very good. Anyway i always liked Arcam and continue to do so. WHF had rated the B&W 685/Nad C352/Cyrus and CA products etc etc as real cracker HI FI and i definately did not think so i am not really surprised by their scorn for the current Arcam gear.
If u are visiting Bbay u will definately get to hear all the above and more.

Best Regards

 

[square_wave]

I am going to complicate things further here
Asit, you listen to a lot of classical music (Hindustani and others) right ?
There is hi-end diy person I know in Bangalore. I have never heard classical sound so good in any other system than his. He is a hard-core classical listener. His system is a complete diy effort with a transport, DAC, SET tube mono-blocks and speakers with top of the line scanspeak drivers. He does hi-end DIY for people who are very serious about it. There are a few people who have done it and are much closer to their music than they were with branded gear costing double. But these are not cheap. They are proven diy efforts using top of the line components which are not used in the kind of electronics being discussed here.
I use his speakers. PM me if you are interested. But be assured that you may have to travel down and experience it yourself.

 

[Asit]

Hi square_wave,

Thanks for the input. I guess I am in a state where you cannot confuse me any more than already I am in. Think of the kid in "Tare Zameen Par" where one more poor score in a new exam wouldn't change anything.

The proposition is highly interesting. Even if I do not consider buying such a thing, I may be interested in listening whenever I am in Bangalore the next time. Here is a BIG problem though! I was abroad for 14 years and now I am back in India for another 14 years, and in all these years I have been to Bangalore just twice, once when I was abroad and once after coming back.

On a more serious note, don't you think buying such a specilised diy setup needs a bit more care or perhaps a nearer-than-Bangalore source of help? Or am I being too uninterestingly and boringly conservative when it comes to purchase decisions (like most Korean who are known to be the most unadventurous when it comes to food)?

 

[nirmalprim]

Hi Asit,
This is my first post here.I am a Doctor working in Noida .My hellos to everyone on this fantastic forum.Just wanted to compliment you on the choice of speakers ! Canton are great speakers.They are hand crafted,at least they used to be about 20 yrs back,and very sweet sounding .I have a 7.1 system all Canton except for the sub .Fronts Tower CT920 SC(18--30,000khz,sensv 89,continous 180 w/Max 320 Watts)centre Ergo cm51,surr/back surr dipole Ergo R52.Sub is a JamoSw315 .Driven by TXDS 989 onkyo.These speakers are 9yrs old and sound so sweet.I had a problem with the tweeters (my mistake),wrote to the company and they sent me new tweeters and the midrange drivers--Free ! All the way from Germany,No questions asked about guarantee etc.So,nice decision--change everything ,but the front speakers !!
The rest
Pioneer 610
HD 65 optima
Audioquest interconnects/HDMI
Optima Panoview 120" white Matt screen

 

[Asit]

Hi Nirmalprim,

Great to have you in this forum and in this thread. A very hearty welcome to another owner of Canton. You seem to have a very nice HT setup there, although go a bit easy on those tweeters. Canton may not send them free a second time, haha!

I suppose the salesman Herr Schulko (I still remember his name) mentioned something to the effect that they were handcrafted. My wife and I were too excited to buy them. I still remember the Autumn (1989) day we bought the speakers. Before that day we saw the speakers on many occasions in the well-insulated listening room of Allopach (the store name) and on a couple of occasions had them auditioned. However, I was on my first job (a post-doctoral fellow), newly married and having already bought a car, found the Karat 60's too expensive and was thinking of settling for the Karat 40's. One Saturday afternoon when we were walking by the store, we suddenly found them on the outer showcase of the store on sale as a demo pair. We immediately went in and there was Herr Schulko smiling at us. He readily suggested in favor of these demo speakers. He said they were on demo only for three months and was operated only by him and they would come with the regular 5 year warranty from the day of purchase. He also said if operated carefully he did not anticipate these speakers dying in a long long time. To be 100% honest, I did not believe him at that time. Any way it did not matter. We still did not have any amp or a source because we did not have any money left for that month.

So we came home with the speakers on the backseat of my Opel and then had to carry these heavy speakers myself to our third floor apartment (my wife was not much help other than opening and holding doors for me. We lived in a heritage building in the town of Aachen which was more or less destroyed completely in the 2nd world war. Ours was one of the few that survived and was maintained beautifully with the old charm, so no elevators were allowed, something our landlady Frau Clemens always used to apologise to me about).

Sorry, for being very personal here. Just could not help it. Thanks though for reminding me of that day when we brought home our Canton speakers.

 

[square_wave]

Hi square_wave,

Thanks for the input. I guess I am in a state where you cannot confuse me any more than already I am in. Think of the kid in "Tare Zameen Par" where one more poor score in a new exam wouldn't change anything.

The proposition is highly interesting. Even if I do not consider buying such a thing, I may be interested in listening whenever I am in Bangalore the next time. Here is a BIG problem though! I was abroad for 14 years and now I am back in India for another 14 years, and in all these years I have been to Bangalore just twice, once when I was abroad and once after coming back.

On a more serious note, don't you think buying such a specilised diy setup needs a bit more care or perhaps a nearer-than-Bangalore source of help? Or am I being too uninterestingly and boringly conservative when it comes to purchase decisions (like most Korean who are known to be the most unadventurous when it comes to food)?

Let me check with him if he some Calcutta customers. If so, I'll PM you.

 

[Asit]

Hi everybody,

After the initial round of responses, it seems to me that the message is loud and clear that I should not go for little upgrades here and there. The suggestion is to go for a clearly significant change.

On the basis of that and my own homework (reading forums and reviews by experts and users, TAS yearly editors'choice etc), it seems to me that if I want to buy NEW gear with bill and warranty, these are my choices (exceeding my previous budget substantially):

1. Pre/Power
a) Quad 909 power and 99 pre - the combo works well by all counts, the initial quote is about Rs 1.3L but I think it's going to come down substantially after discounts.
b) Parasound Halo A21 power and P3 pre. Intial quote is around 1.14L.
c) Parasound New Classic 2125 power and 2100 pre. Initial quote is around 85K.
(none of the above pre-amps are spectacular, however, they work well with their matching power amps. Unless one goes for a significantly more expensive pre, these are apparently the best choices for each respective power amps).

2. Integrateds
a) Arcam A 38 (1.1L) and A28 (70K)
b) Densen B110 (85K)
c) CA 840A v2 (75K) (Like dinyaar I also did not like the CA amps I heard, but apparently this one's very good for the price)
d) Kandy K2 (?)

NONE OF THE ABOVE I HAVE HEARD SO FAR, BUT I AM GOING TO AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE.

The Arcams, Quads and CA I can audition at SKS Kolkata. Actually they have said some home auditions with my speakers are possible. SKS at the moment do not have the Arcams I guess. They are still trying sell their old Diva stuff.

If I make a trip to Mumbai, I can audition the Parasounds and the Kandy, unfortunately with other speakers. I have not called Mr. Colah yet to find out when the K2's are coming or they are already there. There are 2 reasons why I am interested in the K2 more than the L3. K2, according to reports, can drive speakers better than L3 and the K2 sound is cleaner.

Now it seems like if I do not make a trip to Pune, I would not be able to listen to the Densen. Despite people suggesting that Densens are very expensive and perhaps not even worth it, one piece of data simply fascinates me. That is: the Densen B110 is rated at 60wpc@8 and 120wpc@4. Now this doubling of the watts from 8 Ohms to 4 Ohms is not seen normally. It's got to be some amp.

Chances of my going to Pune is slim, but if I ever make it to Pune I would like to hear some Vincent SS gear also. I was just reading about some German test results of one Vincent with Arcam A28 and it beat the Arcam narrowly, I think, if I understood the German article properly.

 

[gopi]

Asit,
Since you said about Densen's output capability, I thought of qouting Naim Nait 5i - 50W continuous output into 8-Ohm loads, 500W peak into 1-Ohm.
I think that should be something as well

 

[particleman]

Asit, a word about the Arcam. Try to audition them with a pair of lively, brighter-than-neutral speakers. If you pair them with warm speakers it'll be snoozeville. The Arcam rolls off the treble just a bit so it sounds better when it's balanced by speakers like the Dali Ikon 6 or Monitor Audio RS6. Another thing to listen for is the absolute black in silent passages. Really impressive especially when you hear a piano solo.

 

[neo]

Hey Asit it's a big list to start with & you'll mostly keep on adding to it.

Here's my input to it.
If you go the pre power route then you should try the primare pre 30, if you'd like to mix it with a good power amp. May be the parasound's, But i guess it'll double your budget.
All the best with the auditions
Cheers.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,
If going for a pre/power go for a 'good' combo. Just a pre/power from a brand may lose out to a quality integrated at the similar price point.
I dont have any idea of the new parasound combo so no comment.
Dear Particleman owns the Arcam A 28 and has paired it with the MA RS 6. Now on some forums/audio websites this combo is considered to be bright as they are sonically opposite to each other. I go with particleman on this and i feel its not bright but 'lively' and some degree of that is required or the music may sound too dull/bland. If u go for the A38(100 WPC) u can always upgrade by adding a P38 and bi amp. I like the current arcam products. Music is not thrown at u (a la Rotel) but is presented in a smooth yet detailed way. A friend has the A28 with the B&W 685 and he loves it and i too felt the amp made the speaker sound better than any Rotel combo i heard it with at the dealers. Plus the current FMJ has a 5 year warranty which is a plus point.
Regarding the Densen Doubling output as the impedance is halved is actually good. A densen is a great co making some great amplifiers so no issue if u go with that too.
I dont know if u will like a Naim. I would not like to own it and i also find its way over priced to be considered. Mr colah is the distributor for Naim too.
I agree that the primare Pre 30 is a good pre but i feel at the same price point the Arcam C31 preamp is better. In fact as a preamp its a more versatile preamp than my bryston BP6. U are right in going for the pre/power from the same brand. It has its advantages and also sells easier.
Also look at Musical Fidelity. The A 5.5 is a lovely,fluid sound and has a lot of reserve power.
RGDS

 

[Asit]

Hi dinyaar,

You are certainly right that some pre/power combo especially at the lower price range would be beaten comfortably by some of the integrateds. Yes, sure, I do not have to buy a pre/power for the sake of it. However, even after extending the budget by some amount, most of those integrateds are still outside my reach. I would very much like to have the MF A5.5 integrated, but its 1.5L or thereabouts in India new with B&W. That would be too much of a climb for me.

Regarding the shortlisted 3 pre/power combos mentioned in my recent post, the quad 909/99 and the parasound halo A23/P3 combos have been around for a long long time (about 10 years for the quad and 6 years for the halo) and have satisfied many many reviewers as well as actual customers and users. For example, there have been a few who had upgraded from a Nad pre/power combo to either of these and were very satisfied. That's why I thought why not give these a shot. I may or may not like them, but it's very hard to find anything negative in the net about both these combos for the price. If you know more, please do not hesitate to let me know.

My interest in the quad 909 is because its mid-range has been praised with no bounds almost. For the kind of music I mostly listen to, the mid-range is very very important. When I audition them, I shall find out with the given choice of speakers how much of that is true. It has been been commented by users that with a minor change (user capable: input sensitivity 300mV to 100mV of the pre) the lows and the highs also get a tremendous boost.

About the Parasound New Classic 2125/2100 combo, I am not sure at all. The reviews that usually referred to as praising these combos are not really praising them too much if you read between the lines. Since these are quite new (hardly a year old) not many user reviews are available. I always put a lot of importance on user reviews, especially if the user is experienced. The reason I put them in my shortlist is that if I am auditioning the halo combo I can also audition the New Classic line at the same place.

I have nothing for or against these choices so far, since I have not heard them. I am just trying to be as much unbiased as possible with respect to name, reputation etc. Please keep the advices coming and without any bars please. If you think something is not worth considering, please say it. For me so far it has been only a paper exercise without actual auditioning but people like you may have heard most of the electronics I am talking about.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Asit,
This is not running down Nad gear as i owned it for quite a while. Nad owners please do not get offended as that is not the intention.
Nad sound is very cloudy. It is like a veil over the speakers. The bass is bloated, the mids are good and the highs lack detail or sparkle. When u crank one of these amps all u hear is mids. So if there is a budget then i would rule out all Nad, even the pre/powers. Rotel leads to fatigue very fast and that for a music lover is disaster so its a No No for me.
The Musical Fidelity may not cost that much. Call Mr Jalal (Distributor) in Chennai and ask for best quote.His No is 99401 80514. He will surely courier the amp to Calcutta too. This amp is now made in Taiwan/china like most gear and not in the UK like the earlier MF gear but is a beautiful sounding amplifier. Dont know of the reliabilty as no one i know owns one.
Parasound no opinion as i have barely heard.
I guess the Quad can be considered though i would not buy it as i dont like the pre as i mentioned earlier.
Arcam/Densen are great and should be considered. Superb build/reliable gear/good sound. Would happily consider either.

Now u go and audition and we take it from there. That too is entertaining in my opinion.

I now dont rely on reviews/paid reviews much, rather its better to get comments from owners and only rely on ur ears.
Rgds

 

[square_wave]

I would avoid all the entry level Musical fidelity integrateds and seperates as well. I have some extensive experience with them. A friend had the A3.2 amplifier. We have extensively checked it with a pair of proacs and then the green mountain audio EOS2. Bad scene. He checked out the A5.5. All these are typical "executive - audiophile" sounding amplifiers. They are always in between you and the music. Then he upgraded to a pair of odyssey khartago extreme mono blocks and an old Jeff rowland preamp. It was a massive upgrade.
I have checked out their A 3.2 CR series pre and power. Again a bad bargain. Very euphonic sounding with bloated bass.Siva of corrson used to own them. He had upgraded to a massive plinius class A power amp and I checked it out to see if it will work for me. Siva then made a power amp which is better than the plinius and this design was on sale on this forum a few months back. Don't know if it is still there