Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

[Asit]

Hi Gopi and dinyaar,

I am sorry for responding late. Thanks for assuring me that I was not going insane in concluding that my very old HK amp is better than the Nad.

Dinyaar, may I ask you another question? At the back of this HK amp, there is an impedance switch (4 Ohm / 8 Ohm). From previous experience, I did not like the sound that much from the 4 Ohm setting. That's why even if the nominal impedance of my speakers is 4 Ohm, I have always used a 8 Ohm setting. What do you think about it? The amp has no problem driving the speakers. In fact the volume is only at the 9 O'clock position.

Guys, any suggestions on an alternative pre?

Sadly, I must say that I am not sure how long though I shall be posting in this forum. There is a growing atmosphere of lack of politeness and pretensions (without proper homework and knowledge) that I am having difficulty to live with. In case I do not post here anymore or do it occasionally, I will be missing real experts like you and a sense of friendship. At least I will have to be very careful and minimize the interactions.

 

[gopi]

asit,
I am not sure whats the diff between the 4 or 8 ohm connections. Will leave that for others.
But regarding the rude remark passed in the other thread, it was great to see that you didn't get agitated and started off any fight. Lets ignore such guys and I would say lets just ban him. But, what we have here in the forum is above all that. So, please do not restrain yourself from the forum because of one very very stupid remark

 

[venkatcr]

But regarding the rude remark passed in the other thread, it was great to see that you didn't get agitated and started off any fight. Lets ignore such guys and I would say lets just ban him. But, what we have here in the forum is above all that. So, please do not restrain yourself from the forum because of one very very stupid remark

I certainly second Gopi in this regard. Asit please read my post (#38) in http://www.hifivision.com/what-should-i-buy/3420-pm6002-vs-ca540a-v2-urgent-4.html. And I certainly look forward to your continued participation here.

Cheers

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Gopi and dinyaar,

I am sorry for responding late. Thanks for assuring me that I was not going insane in concluding that my very old HK amp is better than the Nad.

Dinyaar, may I ask you another question? At the back of this HK amp, there is an impedance switch (4 Ohm / 8 Ohm). From previous experience, I did not like the sound that much from the 4 Ohm setting. That's why even if the nominal impedance of my speakers is 4 Ohm, I have always used a 8 Ohm setting. What do you think about it? The amp has no problem driving the speakers. In fact the volume is only at the 9 O'clock position.

Guys, any suggestions on an alternative pre?

Sadly, I must say that I am not sure how long though I shall be posting in this forum. There is a growing atmosphere of lack of politeness and pretensions (without proper homework and knowledge) that I am having difficulty to live with. In case I do not post here anymore or do it occasionally, I will be missing real experts like you and a sense of friendship. At least I will have to be very careful and minimize the interactions.

Hi Asit,
These old HK integrateds were known as the 'disco' amps of yester years and had what was called high instantaneous current. HK had robust power supplies and the big positive was the ability to drive tough loads. Since there is a setting for a 4 ohm load one should use it as the amp is prepared to deliver more current. Now u say the 8ohm sounds better with ur 4 ohm canton which is difficult for me to figure. Maybe someone else can advise better as i cant follow why the 4ohm setting will sound worse than 8ohms with ur 4ohm canton. I would think more current will be pumped and the speaker will be driven better at 4ohm setting, though the amp would run hotter.

On a practical note play it on 8 ohm and enjoy the sound as that is ur preferred setting. Ur cantons being highly sensitive is making it easier for the amp even at the 8 ohm setting. Its unlikely that ur amp will pack up and if it does u then have the wonderful opportunity to buy a spanking new amp!!!!! and keeping this thread alive.

Lastly Asit there are all kinds of people around us. Some polite and some rude and some just lack basic courtesy. U are on the forum to share/learn more about this hobby that u adore and i would urge u to not let such incidents bother u.

Rgds

 

[Asit]

Hi Gopi, Venkat and Dinyaar,

Thanks for the encouraging words. I treasure it when it is coming from such responsible members of this forum.

Two issues:

1. I will give the 4 amp setting another try and post the results. However, I have a question: Why is it that in the technical specs of amps, THD is always shown significantly lower with a 8 Ohms load than a 4 Ohm load? This is also strange for another reason. If the lower impedance not only just means a greater requirement of power and current, it also means more harmonic distortions then why many very reputed speaker brands still make 4 Ohm speakers?

2. Does it make sense to consider the Quad 909 with another pre? Does dinyaar's respected acquaintance (adoringly called 'audionut') recommend the quad 909 with the 99 pre or something else?

 

[dinyaar]

Asit,
I dont know if my old friend has an opinion on the quad preamp, at least he has not voiced his opinion to me.
The quad 909 monos are only for the LF in his rig, the HF are driven by audio note monos.
Rgds

 

[Asit]

Here goes my second audition:

Last Saturday I set up an appointment with Digital Acoustics, Kolkata to audition the Cadence VA-1 tube amp.

I went there sharply at 6PM and Mr. Surajit Paul, Vice President of Digital Acoustics (who also makes the Invisible speakers) was there ready with his set-up. The people there were very cordial.

The amp was set up with a CA 640c v2 CDP and two sets of speakers (Cadence Avita and Tannoy Glen Air 10, both floorstanders of some repute). At the end of the audition I found out that the CDP was just opened from the box and had a run-time of approx 2hours before my audition. How much it had to do with the results of the audition, I leave that to the readers.

CDs that I went there with were the same ones used for the auditioning of the Quad 99/909 amp combo. The only new CD was a newly bought CD of vocal Indian Classical music by Malini Rajurkar.

Firstly, there was some appreciable difference in the sound between the two sets of speakers. The tannoy seemed a bit more open, but seemed to have some uncleanliness about it. The Avita sound was cleaner, but was less palatable.

However, both sounded a lot muffled in comparison to the combination at home with very old HK6300 amp, very old Canton Karat 60 speakers and the CA 740c CDP and also with the Quad 99/909 amp, Cayin CD 50T (or the CA Dacmagic with the Cayin as transport) and the Epos M12.2 speakers. In fact if my memory serves me correctly, it sounded muffled even in comparison to the Cayin 50T amp and CD combination with Quad 11L2 speakers heard a few months ago.

There was no magic in the sound. I could perhaps attribute all that to the non-broken-in and poorer CDP (than used in earlier auditions). However, it seemed to me that the amp had trouble driving either set of speakers. That's surprising because I thought the low powered amp would be able to drive at least the Cadence Avita speakers comfortably. The volume knob had always to be kept at or above 12 O'clock position.

For the Jasraj CD (its trickiness described in my post containing the audition of the Quad amp combo), sound was initially almost not audible. The volume had to be increased to almost the 2 O'clock position for it to be loud enough. To the credit of the amp though, at such high volume level (position-of-volume-knob-wise, not the actual volume of the sound), the noise level did not increase appreciably.

I do not know what to make out of the above. I went there with high expectations, because the Cadence tube amp is supposed to bring some magic into the Classical music pieces and the vocals I had. But it was overall very disappointing. The sound lacked the desired clarity, openness and fullness. The dynamic range, needless to say, was nearly absent. However, the tonality was the only thing acceptable. Soundstaging and imaging was also only average, nothing to write home about.

Usually during audition at some point I ask about the cables being used. This time I did not ask.

The Cadence VA-1 amp now goes for 1.09 L instead of 45K about a couple of years ago (this information was provided to me by Mr. Surajit Paul of Digital Acoustics, Kolkata where the audition took place).

 

[square_wave]

Dear Asit
Sorry, was out of town for two weeks helping my folks nurse my mom back to health.
Good to see that you have made some progress here.
I am trying to gauge what could be wrong with the cadence setup. I am not much of a fan of the cadence amplifiers. But carefully setup, the cadence combination has a certain magic to it. The cadence speakers perform much better with other amplifiers also. I know someone using the Arcas with a full Gamut solidstate with tremendous results. The speakers are quite nice. Avitas are quite a favorite among classical listeners. I am sure something is amiss with the setup here.
If it is possible, try out a plinius integrated also. They are quite nice.
Man, I really wish you were in Bangalore. With classical of any type I could make you listen to some gear (all-hi-end diy). I am sure you would have been totally blown. The singer right in front of you. No exaggeration here.

 

[Asit]

Hi square_wave,

I am sure your mother is doing well now. Great to have you back.

Hi Cranky,

Great post. So much in it for me to learn. I agree with you that even though the VA-1 may not be worth a lakh, the poorness of the audition was due primarily to the CDP and then it not being burnt-in.

I followed the points you mention about the speaker-drivability of amps. However, the VA-1 did not respond energetically even at 3 O'clock position (close to your max of 5 O'clock) with the Jasraj CD. This would be very hard to accept. No matter how poor the CDP is (agreed it is a low priced one, but it does a reasonable job with a Marantz PM7001, CA 640A v2 or a Nad c325bee and a few more), can it sound worse on a 1L amp with such respectable speakers costing a few lakhs (in case of the Tannoy)?

I am looking forward to hearing your chip amp if and when you come here.

 

[square_wave]

Hi Asit,
The cadence listening room in Bangalore has the Avita, Arista with the VA-1.I have listened to this setup extensively. The problems with drive and musicality do not exist in this room. Only issue is a slight lack of low end control due to the size of the amp (damping factor etc..). The cadence mono blocks do a much better job with the bigger speakers in the cadence lineup. The source is an Einstein cd player costing upwards of 2lakh. But I am sure with a decent source (30 to 40k types), the sound should be quite nice. The thing with electrostatic panels is total lack of grain in the highs. Correctly setup, you can hear layers and layers in the highs. This bode well for classical and Jazz and recordings with natural instruments.
I am sure something is wrong with the setup.
BTW: Have you ever considered the red wine audio amplifiers. I love them especially for the kind of music you listen to. Great tonality, poise and musical. Very dark black background with precise location of instrument due to battery power supply. I would prefer this over most amplifiers mentioned in the thread. The creator of Rethm single driver speakers (Jacob george) swears by them. He once told me this is the only solid state amp he can live with. He is a hard-core tube amp lover. Another senior audiophile on this forum who use the rethm sadhanas swear by them. You could check it out.
Red Wine Audio Signature 30.2
Arn systems stock them in Bangalore.

 

[reignofchaos]

The cost of the RWA 30.2 will probably be twice his budget. Its a damn good amp though.

 

[Asit]

Hi square_wave,

As ROC just pointed out, the RWA 30.2 integrated goes around USD 3000 and the power amp around USD 2500. Even if I convert straight, it is substantially above my budget.

That is the problem. I am just a poor physicist who is grossly underpaid. And there is no financing scheme to support aspiring audiophiles.

But the point you and some others like ROC and Sridhar (in other threads) are making is well noted. Basically the point is (as I understand):

1. There are certain brands making very high quality audio components. These do not pay a lot in peripheral expenditure (like running a big establishment or paying for advertisements) and as result can offer better products for the money (like the Operetta already mentioned).
2. Some of these offer lower wattage stuff, but which is more quality wattage.

I am trying to get myself acquainted with these stuff. I knew about the Red Wine Audio, because in some other thread Sridhar ran an informal quizz for members to guess the name.

I have no doubt in my mind, some of these would fit my budget and also be able to comfortably drive my speakers, because my speakers, albeit at 4 Ohms (conservative estimate by Germans in 1989), are actually easy to drive.

Here lies the eternal problem of being in Kolkata, where to audition. I don't see myself in Bangalore in a hurry. Let's just wait and see.

 

[neo]

Hey! Asit you have a great thread going. It's great to read your audition's.
The answers for the members aslo add a great deal to my limited knowledge.

Since earlier in the thread you had mentioned about you coming to B'bay for auditions. I would suggest you audition the Holfi 8s integrated. It is about 80w SE design.or Try www.holfi.com for more details.
One of friend has just recently paired it with speakers from a danish company called neeper acoustics & although the amp has yet to be broken in properly it seems have a great tonality, supereb mid's & high's.
All the best.
Cheers.

 

[reignofchaos]

Hey! Asit you have a great thread going. It's great to read your audition's.
The answers for the members aslo add a great deal to my limited knowledge.

Since earlier in the thread you had mentioned about you coming to B'bay for auditions. I would suggest you audition the Holfi 8s integrated. It is about 80w SE design.or Try www.holfi.com for more details.
One of friend has just recently paired it with speakers from a danish company called neeper acoustics & although the amp has yet to be broken in properly it seems have a great tonality, supereb mid's & high's.
All the best.
Cheers.

Have heard the Holfi Xenia CD player. Definitely was quite nice sounding for the price. It was laid back yet quite detailed with a very balanced sound signature. I'm guessing the amps should also sound similar. I'm sure this is worth auditioning.

 

[Asit]

Thanks neo for bringing in a new name and ROC for providing some more data on it. The whole day kept me very busy, especially the afternoon. Will try to get more information on this holfi brand, perhaps later this evening. The name is a bit iffy, but what's in a name, the product matters.

So neo, where can you get it in India and then the inevitable question: what sort of price?

 

[neo]

It is a unknown & a small brand for sure. But the build quality etc seems to be decent & i'm told it has quiet a following in europe.

The 8s amp retails at MRP 1.25K.
The distributor is based in Mumbai & not sure if he has dealers in Cal.
Will pm you the contact details if required.
All the best.
Cheers.

Thanks neo for bringing in a new name and ROC for providing some more data on it. The whole day kept me very busy, especially the afternoon. Will try to get more information on this holfi brand, perhaps later this evening. The name is a bit iffy, but what's in a name, the product matters.

So neo, where can you get it in India and then the inevitable question: what sort of price?

 

[myriad]

Here goes my second audition:

Last Saturday I set up an appointment with Digital Acoustics, Kolkata to audition the Cadence VA-1 tube amp.

I went there sharply at 6PM and Mr. Surajit Paul, Vice President of Digital Acoustics (who also makes the Invisible speakers) was there ready with his set-up. The people there were very cordial.

The amp was set up with a CA 640c v2 CDP and two sets of speakers (Cadence Avita and Tannoy Glen Air 10, both floorstanders of some repute). At the end of the audition I found out that the CDP was just opened from the box and had a run-time of approx 2hours before my audition. How much it had to do with the results of the audition, I leave that to the readers.

CDs that I went there with were the same ones used for the auditioning of the Quad 99/909 amp combo. The only new CD was a newly bought CD of vocal Indian Classical music by Malini Rajurkar.

Firstly, there was some appreciable difference in the sound between the two sets of speakers. The tannoy seemed a bit more open, but seemed to have some uncleanliness about it. The Avita sound was cleaner, but was less palatable.

However, both sounded a lot muffled in comparison to the combination at home with very old HK6300 amp, very old Canton Karat 60 speakers and the CA 740c CDP and also with the Quad 99/909 amp, Cayin CD 50T (or the CA Dacmagic with the Cayin as transport) and the Epos M12.2 speakers. In fact if my memory serves me correctly, it sounded muffled even in comparison to the Cayin 50T amp and CD combination with Quad 11L2 speakers heard a few months ago.

There was no magic in the sound. I could perhaps attribute all that to the non-broken-in and poorer CDP (than used in earlier auditions). However, it seemed to me that the amp had trouble driving either set of speakers. That's surprising because I thought the low powered amp would be able to drive at least the Cadence Avita speakers comfortably. The volume knob had always to be kept at or above 12 O'clock position.

For the Jasraj CD (its trickiness described in my post containing the audition of the Quad amp combo), sound was initially almost not audible. The volume had to be increased to almost the 2 O'clock position for it to be loud enough. To the credit of the amp though, at such high volume level (position-of-volume-knob-wise, not the actual volume of the sound), the noise level did not increase appreciably.

I do not know what to make out of the above. I went there with high expectations, because the Cadence tube amp is supposed to bring some magic into the Classical music pieces and the vocals I had. But it was overall very disappointing. The sound lacked the desired clarity, openness and fullness. The dynamic range, needless to say, was nearly absent. However, the tonality was the only thing acceptable. Soundstaging and imaging was also only average, nothing to write home about.

Usually during audition at some point I ask about the cables being used. This time I did not ask.

The Cadence VA-1 amp now goes for 1.09 L instead of 45K about a couple of years ago (this information was provided to me by Mr. Surajit Paul of Digital Acoustics, Kolkata where the audition took place).

Asit,
SKS Traders use Chord, Ecosse, JPS labs and XLO in their demo whereas Digital Acoustic use cheap wires and interconnects. This could be the cause of muffleness.
Avitas need space to breathe. Outlets have many speakers to demo so they usually line them very close to each other. You need to pull the speakers few feet inside the room and out of that line to get a true picture.
The other problem could be dirty mains. Cadence amp and electrostats need good clean power to sing at its best.
I have a same Cadence set up with Arcam cd192 in a 24' x 17' room. If you want to listen, give me a call ( you have my no.) and we can fix a time for a session.
Regards
Vasu

 

[square_wave]

Asit,
SKS Traders use Chord, Ecosse, JPS labs and XLO in their demo whereas Digital Acoustic use cheap wires and interconnects. This could be the cause of muffleness.
Avitas need space to breathe. Outlets have many speakers to demo so they usually line them very close to each other. You need to pull the speakers few feet inside the room and out of that line to get a true picture.
The other problem could be dirty mains. Cadence amp and electrostats need good clean power to sing at its best.
I have a same Cadence set up with Arcam cd192 in a 24' x 17' room. If you want to listen, give me a call ( you have my no.) and we can fix a time for a session.
Regards
Vasu

Now that looks like a good idea. Asit you should definitely hear a well setup cadence system.

 

[Asit]

Hi Vasu,

Thanks a lot for dropping in and the invitation. I see that you have now upgraded your CDP from Diva73 to Diva192. I'll call and set up something.

Hi everybody (including Vasu of course),

The day I auditioned the Quad 99/909 combo at SKS, they were trying to get me to listen to the Cayin A-88T amp. It was getting late after a 3-hour audition, and I did not listen to it. Do you guys think that it is worth an audition? (Reviews from 6moon and others are superlative, TAS lists it as Editor's choice each of the last 3 years, and it's also a Stereophile class B or something. However, I do not want to get influenced by magazine reviews).

I heard the Cayin A-50T amp before and it's a lively decent amp. SKS is ready to offer some hefty discount on the 88T. I just want some of your opinion on it, because I remember somewhere in this forum a member or two expressed views that one could do better than Cayin for the money. It's quoted under 90K.

All I am trying to do is : instead of sitting around, doing nothing but theorizing and reading stuff on the net, I can audition whatever's on the horizon in Kolkata and then take it from there (for family reasons I cannot get of town for the next couple months or so).

Where is dinyaar? The moment I uttered tube, he has vanished from this thread. Hi dinyaar, I still have SS in my mind!

 

[neo]

Dinyaar is like a genie you rub & say the wrong words he gets tubed
(Just kiding my friend i'm hope you don't mind it)

@ASIT-About the cayin 88, give it an audition. Since it's in Cal you've noting to loose & we a get a review in return.

All the best.
Cheers.