Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study

[persiflage]

Hi Asit,

Just saw your post on the Cadence audition, and am intrigued to say the least. I have extensive experience with some old Amayas driven by a VA-1 and the combo is absolutely superb. Yes, the singer in front of you, holographic imaging and all the rest of it. I don't think the source could be so much of an issue as to prevent the inherent quality of the Cadence rig from shining through. That Cambridge is not a bad unit by any means.

There has to be something horribly wrong in the way your audition was set up though I'm struggling to think what - I have heard Cadence with bad cables and a DVDP source, in a room clearly too small for them, and while not optimal there was always an inkling of genius.

The VA-1 is a lovely amp and I've heard it driving other mainstream speakers such as the MA RS6 with perfect ease. Yes, the bass can be a bit bloomy, the EL34s are not called midrange tubes for nothing (esp with the Amayas' monster 12" woofers which are hard to tame) but I still prefer it to what most INR 80K SS amps would produce with the same speakers. Reason - greater tonality and realism as opposed to merely quantity of bass.Think of the acoustic upright bass being plucked on small Jazz ensembles and you'll know what I mean.

The amp does come into it's own starting at the 2 o'clock position, but I don't mind as there is SOME position on the dial it delivers the goods at. I've never encountered a situation where the soundstage starts to collapse etc which would be symptomatic of inadequate power.

There are two things that come to mind here. First, those of us who were bought up listening to SS (this includes me), equate the 5'o'clock position with ear shredding SPL. Anything else we take for a lack of power. Secondly, after a month of listening to the Cadence I realised that it could be plenty loud but never fatiguing even at party levels.And believe me, I know loud, I have 'rock' roots

Yes, sadly the amp is overpriced these days when bought new (what were the Cadence folks thinking?) But exceptional value at 50-60k. And should be some available pre-owned as always.

By all means try the Cayin. I should be very interested in your impressions of that audition.

 

[persiflage]

Hi Asit,

Just saw your post on the Cadence audition, and am intrigued to say the least. I have extensive experience with some old Amayas driven by a VA-1 and the combo is absolutely superb. Yes, the singer in front of you, holographic imaging and all the rest of it. I don't think the source could be so much of an issue as to prevent the inherent quality of the Cadence rig from shining through. That Cambridge is not a bad unit by any means.

There has to be something horribly wrong in the way your audition was set up though I'm struggling to think what - I have heard Cadence with bad cables and a DVDP source, in a room clearly too small for them, and while not optimal there was always an inkling of genius.

The VA-1 is a lovely amp and I've heard it driving other mainstream speakers such as the MA RS6 with perfect ease. Yes, the bass can be a bit bloomy, the EL34s are not called midrange tubes for nothing (esp with the Amayas' monster 12" woofers which are hard to tame) but I still prefer it to what most INR 80K SS amps would produce with the same speakers. Reason - greater tonality and realism as opposed to merely quantity of bass.Think of the acoustic upright bass being plucked on small Jazz ensembles and you'll know what I mean.

The amp does come into it's own starting at the 2 o'clock position, but I don't mind as there is SOME position on the dial it delivers the goods at. I've never encountered a situation where the soundstage starts to collapse etc which would be symptomatic of inadequate power.

There are two things that come to mind here. First, those of us who were bought up listening to SS (this includes me), equate the 5'o'clock position with ear shredding SPL. Anything else we take for a lack of power. Secondly, after a month of listening to the Cadence I realised that it could be plenty loud but never fatiguing even at party levels.And believe me, I know loud, I have 'rock' roots

Yes, sadly the amp is overpriced these days when bought new (what were the Cadence folks thinking?) But exceptional value at 50-60k. And should be some available pre-owned as always.

By all means try the Cayin. I should be very interested in your impressions of that audition.

Regards,
Persiflage

 

[persiflage]

Sorry double posted by mistake. Deleting this one.

 

[Asit]

Hi persiflage,
Thanks for joining in the discussion. I agree with most, if not all, of what you have said about expectations of a good sound.

I went to hear the Cadence with similar expectations.

By the way, as would be apparent from my initial posts in this thread, I am not after muscles. I want the music happening in front and around me and I want it to happen with a precision, delicacy, boldness and transparency. Even when a vocalist stands at the tonic (middle octave 'Sa') with a degree of calmness and stays there for the length of a breath, there are certain requirements of the fullness and width of the sound, with a degree of control of breath and controlled intensity of the voice, it is a non-trivial job of the electronics to reproduce that entirely otherwise the musical message is not conveyed. This does not require a lot of muscle, or may be it does, I am not technically very sound, but that was totally absent in that audition.

If you ever heard Hirabai Barodekar live (you would not get in the recordings available, all of them have very poor quality, or recorded at a time when she was way past her prime), you would know when she went to the higher octave 'Sa' and stand there for a length of time, there are very few things in music more tuneful than that. That essence has to be captured. I do not know which harmonics are responsible for that feeling, but I want that. That was missing.

Many of these things I already get in the very old system I have. Somehow it was absent that day. This is what I meant by saying that there was no magic. It is actually possible that my very old HK amp and the Canton speakers form a formidable pair that would take some beating and I am so used to this combination for most of the last 19 years (except for some months with the Nad). At least my salesman Herr Schulko who sold these things to me, had no doubt in his mind that it was going to be an excellent system and would last many many years.

It is also true that I felt that the amp was not able to drive the speakers very well, there was also as if almost no dynamic headroom.

I am trying to audition the Cayin A-88T. It retails around 1.1L. SKS is running a sale on it at 80K.

 

[arj]

Asit, Must say it has been a pleasurable and informative experience reading your posts !

Regarding Cadence Amps the first hand reviews range from excellent to just average which might mean that it is very susceptible to system synergy ,room or power etc. Perhaps the only way might be to get a home audition..surprisingly the Bangalore dealer , Jochen, supposedly goes out of his way in being helpful so see no reason why you should not be able to get it done in Kolkotta as well.

Regarding Leben, I upgraded from a Sugden A21aL to a Leben CS600 and it has been the best upgrade I have made. from all the research i could manage in discussions with folks the cs300 an CS600 differ only in the power output and the CS300 can easily take care of sensitive speakers with a 4 ohm load. I would anyday recommend a trial of this amp if you could manage one. ARN systems who deal in this are supposedly very reasonable and helpful


IF you are considering Cayin, Another amp which you might like is the Prima Luna series..not sure who imports them these days though

 

[dinyaar]

Hi guys,
Asit i am very much here. Will be happy if u go the tube way. I am myself trying to go back there at least partially.

Neoji no problem at all . Will just knock off a grand or two on the kimber!!!! Hahaha.

Asit i have a lot of experience with the Cayin A 88T and the Prima luna prologue 2 that ARJ referred to but both these are best got from singapore. The pricing is very different. Asit if u are coming to bbay anytime soon i will get u to hear all these amps and a few more tubes and SS amps so u can really take a better call. As i mentioned 'audio nut' has both these and will be happy to show them off. BTW we just blew a quad amp last night and stayed up till 2 am trying to figure it out.

Rgds

 

[Asit]

Oh, glad to see you back, dinyaar. How do you blow an amp, by playing it too loud or what?

arj, thanks for your kind words and the encouragement to look at the Leben cs300. I have two problems: 1. I live in Kolkata and there are not many things available for audition, 2. I got a meagre budget (for the kind of stuff I want to look at).

But while we are at it, arj and all the others, I have a serious question at this point which others like me would also like to understand:

Leben cs300 has only 12 watts per channel. Now I have asked around and am also trying to read a bit. People usually say these tube watts are purer. I am a physicist and I cannot understand that. That statement cannot be scientific.

Another thing is: they say these 12 Watts are from pure class A amplification. With a 4 Ohm setting, it would be enough to drive your speakers. Can you guys also explain a bit on this pure class A thing ( I tried to learn some a while back, still cannot completely understand)?

 

[arj]

Can you guys also explain a bit on this pure class A thing ( I tried to learn some a while back, still cannot completely understand)?

I am not sure if Leben is a Pure class A but my sugden sure is. Let me take the first shot at a simplistic explanation (ie my understanding!)

As we all know, every amp takes in an input signal and amplifies it drawing power. The Music signal varies and hence the power requirement also varies based on music as well as the impedance presented to it.

A Class AB draws varying current depending on the output requirement. hence if you check the input power it will keep varying . so the amp draws more power when it needs more als less when it does not need it. Electrical efficiency is something like 60-80%. if not very well designed can cause distortion due to the amp not getting enough input as the music needs fast enough.

Pure Class A takes the entire power all the time. what is required for the amplification is used up by the amp and the rest is all dissipated as Heat. hence the tougher the load , lesser the heat. electrical efficiency is something like 10-15%. But If well designed, the sound is very pure.

usually all Class A/Bs are Biased in class A upto a certain power..so it remains class A to a certain power and then switches to A/B.

Now I have asked around and am also trying to read a bit. People usually say these tube watts are purer. I am a physicist and I cannot understand that. That statement cannot be scientific. .

i also had this confusion and tried to find out something..let me share my current undertanding

1. Watts is Watts and Tube and SS do not make a different in terms of Watts
2. A tube unlke SS does not distort the same way..it is much more "smooth" in its distortion and most of the distorion is in the even Harmonic.hence even when they distort they sound euphonic to a large extent. SS starts distorting suddenly and that too in odd harmonics which sound horrible and also can end up damaging the tweeters
3. an interesting theory: tube electrons flow through Vacuum and SS through solid..hence there is lower resistance in terms ot tube amps and hence more capable of Dynamic power

while I am not sure of theory in point 3, one thing I can comment on is that a lot of power requirement is Dynamic ie the speaker needs a short burst of power for a short time that tube amps are able to supply this better than SS amps. most speakers in average rooms do not need more than 10-30 W RMS but may need dynamic power upto 50W.

 

[square_wave]

Asit, Must say it has been a pleasurable and informative experience reading your posts !

Regarding Cadence Amps the first hand reviews range from excellent to just average which might mean that it is very susceptible to system synergy ,room or power etc. Perhaps the only way might be to get a home audition..surprisingly the Bangalore dealer , Jochen, supposedly goes out of his way in being helpful so see no reason why you should not be able to get it done in Kolkotta as well.

Regarding Leben, I upgraded from a Sugden A21aL to a Leben CS600 and it has been the best upgrade I have made. from all the research i could manage in discussions with folks the cs300 an CS600 differ only in the power output and the CS300 can easily take care of sensitive speakers with a 4 ohm load. I would anyday recommend a trial of this amp if you could manage one. ARN systems who deal in this are supposedly very reasonable and helpful


IF you are considering Cayin, Another amp which you might like is the Prima Luna series..not sure who imports them these days though

Arjun,
Did you sell your sugden amplifier ? May work for Asit

 

[neo]

Hi guys,
Asit i am very much here. Will be happy if u go the tube way. I am myself trying to go back there at least partially.

Neoji no problem at all . Will just knock off a grand or two on the kimber!!!! Hahaha.

Asit i have a lot of experience with the Cayin A 88T and the Prima luna prologue 2 that ARJ referred to but both these are best got from singapore. The pricing is very different. Asit if u are coming to bbay anytime soon i will get u to hear all these amps and a few more tubes and SS amps so u can really take a better call. As i mentioned 'audio nut' has both these and will be happy to show them off. BTW we just blew a quad amp last night and stayed up till 2 am trying to figure it out.

Rgds

Hmm geting tubed? So my hunch was correct?
The grand or two is going to be suffered by my poor friend
Thanks for being a sport.
Cheers

 

[arj]

Arjun,
Did you sell your sugden amplifier ? May work for Asit

No Vinny .. i guess the recession is taking it toll..in the good times i got offers but was not keen on selling it then


Dinyar, do you have any contacts for dealers in Sgp willing to ship to India ? that could be useful info for folks.

 

[Asit]

Hi fellows,
Yesterday Zakir Hussain was in town to play with sitarist Purbayan Chatterjee in an evening concert. In the morning I got a call from a friend and he invited me to this concert. I took the offer. Then I thought SKS Traders would be on my way to the concert place, so why not start early and audition the Cayin A-88T before the concert.

I planned for an hour and a half audition and accordingly I was there at the SKS around 3:45 in the afternoon. The audition was set up with Cayin 50-T CDP, Epos M12i speakers on a stunning pair of new stands and their usual XLO interconnect and Ecosse speaker cables. I had all my customary audition CDs with me.

There were two minor problems during the audition: (i) the Epos speakers were a relatively new pair (about 50 hours of run-in at that point) and not completely broken in, still sounded way better than a pair of entry level Quad 11L2s and (ii) there came another guy apparently auditioning the same amp. He did not come with his CDs, that part was good. But this guy liked to start a conversation when I was trying to hear something.

The first thing that struck me immediately as the sound came on from the first track used was that this was a relatively cleaner and quieter amp. After my readings a bit on tube amps of late, it was a very pleasant surprise.

By now you know about the Jasraj vocals CD I have used in my previous two auditions. It's true that the volume knob had to be turned past the 12 O'clock position (both for the trilinear and the triode setting, do-able on the fly from the remote), but unlike the Cadence VA-1, the sound had punch and character. There was plenty of details on the vocals.

For all other CDs, the volume knob was kept well below the 12 O'clock position. The sound was much fuller compared to that from my HK integrated at home, it had more weight. This I can say with full confidence, because when I came back home at 10PM after the concert, I immediately put on all the CDs in my system at home for a brief check specifically on this issue.

There was plenty of energy with very very good dynamic headroom. Especially on the sitar CD by Nikhil Banerjee this was amply demonstrated.

The acoustic guitar by African musician Ali Farka Toure came out simply magically. This was better than what I heard on the Quad combo a few weeks earlier.

Separation of vocals and all the instruments and drums on the song no. 4 ("O Rey Chhori") of the "Lagaan" music CD (composer: AR Rahman) was very very good. On these lighter pieces, the amp came really to life. May be it was properly warmed up by this time. The speed was also good. Unlike most people's expectations in a tube amp, the bass was good, and very much under control. The midrange and highs were beautiful.

However, some colorations (apparently) of vocals were noticed, especially on female vocals. Whether this was due to the not-fully-broken-in nature of the speakers or an inherent property of the amp, I wouldn't know.

In many ways my experience in this audition was quite similar to the Quad audition. With the Quads, the sound was more powerful, wonderfully detailed and yet very musical. Although dinyaar found the Quad 909 sound a bit bloated (see his earlier post), and I have about zero experience in comparison, (forgive me for my assertion) but I did not find the Quad sound very bloated or anything. In fact I did find it very neutral, that obviously means that bad recordings would sound poor on the Quad. My only compliant on the Quad combo was that the sound could have been a bit more transparent, the way it is on the Arcam amps I have heard. (One thing in this regard I like to point out is that almost the whole Quad audition was done at very loud volumes).

The Cayin A-88T did not fair poorly in comparison. Emotional attachment and the happening experience was very much there, especially after the amp warmed up. It was a smaller sound (not just because we used lower volumes this time, at times very loud volumes were also employed) compared with the Quad, the midrange was good (but on the Quads it was incredible); however the amp had a personality. It stood up and demanded to be counted.

On the basis of my auditions, I would put the Cayin A-88T way ahead of the Cadence VA-1. I am not sure if it is okay to compare a SS with a tube amp, although I would put the Quad pair ahead (Quads also cost significantly more). At the discounted price of 80K, the Cayin A-88T seems to be a very reasonable product. How expensive are they in Singapore?

At the end, I must say, I hope I am not making a fool of myself by trying to express whatever I have experienced at these auditions. There are so many very experienced people in this forum who know all about these amps inside out and perhaps they are trying to hide a smile or two after reading my auditions.

For my part, I have to confess that because of my background in music, my mind tends to drift all the time to the music and music alone, because the music I am carrying around for the auditions are beautiful beautiful pieces of music, and it becomes at times difficult to notice the ground realities for actual comparison. It is actually a struggle for me to restrain myself from being engulfed by the music and listen a bit technically and analytically on the equipments. Unfortunately these equipments are there and I have to evaluate them for a purchase decision. I would like to apologise for such an inherent non-analytic attitude.

PS: I have downloaded those articles by Mr. Nelson Pass and would read them shortly.

 

[reignofchaos]

Lovely report. Like everyone mentioned, its a pleasure reading your auditioning reports. One thing to consider is the fact that a lot of our listening experiences are based upon synergy - some amps just work very well with some speakers and vice versa. Though you seem to prefer the Quad over the Cayin in your auditions so far, it might be a completely different ball game once you get the amp into your living room and pair it with your own speakers . I'd say if the dealer offers home auditions, please take it and do report on how it sounds in your setup. Vice versa, you could take your HK amplifier to your auditions to have a basis for comparison. Its just a thought from my side.

Moving away from the audition, I was curious to know how the concert was? My mom was there backstage with the children who sang the introductory song and her report was that the concert was absolutely fantastic. However her views would probably be biased because the children were from her school .

 

[Asit]

Hi ROC,
The concert was indeed a great success. It was completely full. In fact, Purbayan's father Partha-da could not find a seat for himself. He along with the well-known tabla-player Gobindo Bose was standing halfway through the concert, then some improvised seats were arranged for them. Great to know that your mother is a musician. It was good to see the development of Purbayan since his high school days. Unfortunately because of the lateness and huge mad rush, I did not see Zakir Bhai after the concert. There was a time some twenty years ago I used to know him very well.

Ya, I understand your comment on the synergy. Actually if I end up buying from Kolkata, I have decided that once I have narrowed my choice reasonably well, I would have home auditions. SKS people have already told me that they were game to that. The comparison between the Quads and the 88T was done basically with the same accompanying equipments (there were only Epos M12.2 speakers with the quads instead of the newer M12i with the Cayin). But I agree they may still sound different with my CA740c CDP and especially with my Canton speakers.

Actually, my son already suggested what you have just suggested to carry my HK amp around for comparisons. I have not done it so far. To tell you the truth, I am a lazy person, and my son is the one who nowadays goes to the backside, changing amps, cables etc. Now in two weeks time, he has his 12th grade CBSE Board exams, and I did not want to bother him right now. BTW, the HK amp being quite heavy at about 10kg for a 60wpc amp is not helping matters either.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Guys,
Contrary to what i might have projected i have (parents had an all quad set up) grown up with tube amps. But thats going back too many years and SS is not what it was back then by a long shot.
Arj, i will surely have all the details of sgpore availabilty and pricing in a couple of weeks as my wife is going there for work and hoping to buy one for her dad.
Neo i am not simply dumping my SS amps but just contemplating a few things. Nothing is decided yet. A friend who was loaning me a prima luna has not done so yet. Am kidding on the cables as i cant wait to have them. Tell ur buddy to take good care of them and not bend them in transit !!!! Haha.

Now Asit this A 88 T is built on the lines of the MC 275 and the designer makes no bones about that. It excells at the highs/mids and the lows are very good compared to what a few other tube amps put out. Recently i heard a cd (A trip thru tuscanny which is basically popular italian songs/instrumentals) thru this amp and it was lovely. Then last evening i heard the same cd on another friends new set up(bryston+ Thiel) and i didnt feel as 'involved'. Off course the latter is a great/powerful sounding system costing many times the earlier one and will improve as it 'breaks in'.

An old tube freak told me something recently that i did not totally agree with but there is some truth. He went on to say that me and a few others are searching for something (neutrality,detail, transparency) that is unreal and just not there in the music and tubes is the only thing that can emotionally involve u with the music, as in his opinion a tube is as close to hearing a musician live as it can get. SS amps are going over the top and trying to project things beyond what can actually exist.
Lastly its not that i dont like the quad power amps. The last failure (just two days ago) and a few others just confirmed my doubt on the quality control or lack of it. I hate running down gear but the quality of the modern quad amp leaves a lot to be desired.
Rgds

 

[odyssey]

An old tube freak told me something recently that i did not totally agree with but there is some truth. He went on to say that me and a few others are searching for something (neutrality,detail, transparency) that is unreal and just not there in the music and tubes is the only thing that can emotionally involve u with the music, as in his opinion a tube is as close to hearing a musician live as it can get. SS amps are going over the top and trying to project things beyond what can actually exist.
Rgds

Hi Dinyaar
If you dont mind my asking, what was it that you did not agree with? IME I think we are all searching/looking for something. Most of us dont have the studio/sound recording experience and hence dont know what a performance is supposed to sound like and even if we did I think most would not necessarily take that version of the truth I see it a bit like a conductor conducting a symphony - there are different interpretations of the same material, each appealing to some. This is essentially what different components do - give their own interpretations of the "musical truth". What rocks each persons boat is different for different people - for some this is SS and for some a combo and for some just tubes.

cheers

 

[Asit]

Hi dinyaar,

It was very reassuring to find that your impressions on the Cayin A-88T amp was similar to mine. If I have to sum up the whole experience with this amp, I would say I was very happy, my only little unhappiness about it was the tonality (touched upon briefly in my audition report where I talked about slight colorations of the female vocals) which could be better, but this was perhaps due to the not-fully-broken-in speakers. I have heard that Epos recommends about 200 hours of break-in time, the ones used for this audition had about 50 hours at the most. However, this single point perhaps contributed in my putting the Quad pair slightly ahead of the A-88T. Tonality of everything was superb with the Quads, as mentioned in that report.

I forgot to mention in my audition report of the Cayin A-88T that the soundstage and the imaging was very good which was only average in the case of the Quads as I wrote earlier.

Dinyaar, I did not think you ever ran down a product. You have tons of experience with all kinds of gear. And your opinions are always very honest and I and many others value them tremendously. I may fight with you on something, and may even try to pull a leg or two (because it is only natural to develop a sense of friendship after a while although I have not seen any of you in person so far). I am always waiting to get some inputs from you.

 

[square_wave]

I am not sure if Leben is a Pure class A but my sugden sure is. Let me take the first shot at a simplistic explanation (ie my understanding!)

As we all know, every amp takes in an input signal and amplifies it drawing power. The Music signal varies and hence the power requirement also varies based on music as well as the impedance presented to it.

A Class AB draws varying current depending on the output requirement. hence if you check the input power it will keep varying . so the amp draws more power when it needs more als less when it does not need it. Electrical efficiency is something like 60-80%. if not very well designed can cause distortion due to the amp not getting enough input as the music needs fast enough.

Pure Class A takes the entire power all the time. what is required for the amplification is used up by the amp and the rest is all dissipated as Heat. hence the tougher the load , lesser the heat. electrical efficiency is something like 10-15%. But If well designed, the sound is very pure.

usually all Class A/Bs are Biased in class A upto a certain power..so it remains class A to a certain power and then switches to A/B.



i also had this confusion and tried to find out something..let me share my current undertanding

1. Watts is Watts and Tube and SS do not make a different in terms of Watts
2. A tube unlke SS does not distort the same way..it is much more "smooth" in its distortion and most of the distorion is in the even Harmonic.hence even when they distort they sound euphonic to a large extent. SS starts distorting suddenly and that too in odd harmonics which sound horrible and also can end up damaging the tweeters
3. an interesting theory: tube electrons flow through Vacuum and SS through solid..hence there is lower resistance in terms ot tube amps and hence more capable of Dynamic power

while I am not sure of theory in point 3, one thing I can comment on is that a lot of power requirement is Dynamic ie the speaker needs a short burst of power for a short time that tube amps are able to supply this better than SS amps. most speakers in average rooms do not need more than 10-30 W RMS but may need dynamic power upto 50W.

I think I have to agree with Arj here about Tube watts. I was astonished how the shindo 12 watts per channel amp drove a difficult to drive Usher mini dancer. This is a floor stander version of the 718be. Recommended power amps are the 150 watters. This tiny 12 watter amp had the speaker's woofer's by its (you know what ) with tremendous control.
Every musical instrument in place, clean un-distorted power and supremely musical !
I do not think a 12 watts SS amp can do this with the Mini dancer.

 

[square_wave]

An old tube freak told me something recently that i did not totally agree with but there is some truth. He went on to say that me and a few others are searching for something (neutrality,detail, transparency) that is unreal and just not there in the music and tubes is the only thing that can emotionally involve u with the music, as in his opinion a tube is as close to hearing a musician live as it can get. SS amps are going over the top and trying to project things beyond what can actually exist.
Lastly its not that i dont like the quad power amps. The last failure (just two days ago) and a few others just confirmed my doubt on the quality control or lack of it. I hate running down gear but the quality of the modern quad amp leaves a lot to be desired.
Rgds

I agree with your friend. I have not heard the top end dartzeels, garyphons, Lamms, Gamuts and such SS amplifiers. But I have heard the other usual suspects. The interpretations by well designed tube amps resemble live music more than the SS amps I have heard so far. It is a feeling of being closer to the music. Like the brain has lesser processing to do and relaxes into the music. For me that is neutral. Not the usual measurements. May be we are measuring the wrong things.

 

[dinyaar]

Hi Dinyaar
If you dont mind my asking, what was it that you did not agree with? IME I think we are all searching/looking for something. Most of us dont have the studio/sound recording experience and hence dont know what a performance is supposed to sound like and even if we did I think most would not necessarily take that version of the truth I see it a bit like a conductor conducting a symphony - there are different interpretations of the same material, each appealing to some. This is essentially what different components do - give their own interpretations of the "musical truth". What rocks each persons boat is different for different people - for some this is SS and for some a combo and for some just tubes.

cheers

Hi odyssey/Asit/ square wave,
Odyssey i have a lot of friends who are also music and equipment freaks and then i have my late parents friends who are all in their late 60s early 70s and this is the group that is heavily in tube gear. I love their company and it is this group that i sometimes disagree for their scorn for anything SS. The point i disagree is their opinion that a tube is the way a live concert sounds. That lingering of instruments and the reproduction of the violin and other instruments and that good SS is taking it to a point that is actually not there!!!! There was a time not long ago that a few of these oldies came over for dinner and to hear a Bryston/B&W combo and one of them commented that Mark knoffler seems like he is struggling with a cold. When the same was heard a few days later at his home with tubes he was convinced it was better. Now i have a book on mark which states he was down with a viral and bad throat at the time of the particular recording but still went ahead as the studio was booked. Now they refuse to accept that the PA amp was true and portrayed the voice of the singer more precisely than the tube. I also stress to them that SS are more like 'jack of all trades' and that tubes can be great for classical etc but disastrous for Rock. This is just my opinion. I love the 'crack' of the drums and i sometimes dont get it on the tubes i get to hear. There are times one wants a lush/rich sound and there are other times too. I too have no studio/sound recording experience but i have been to tons of concerts since i was a kid and later a lot of rock concerts as a teen and i would like my audio system to try and replicate that sound that feels as close to live music to my ears. It may be an impossible dream but that is what i would love to achieve.

Asit, thanks for the kind words. I just love reading your posts. I am no guru at all nor do i have tons of knowledge like some of our members here. In fact the amount of 'impulsive' stupid buys i have made embarrass. Its just recollections of sound at different times on various set ups over the decades. Sometimes this hobby and the tweaking drives me mad and sometimes its bliss. Yes i too feel i know a lot of guys on our forum though i have never met them.

Square wave its not that i disagree its just that i cant agree in totality. Am not talking measurements too .I have been feeling for quite a while that the one statement Mark Levinson made about 'high end' being a whole load of hype has some truth. We talk about various loony high end gear as though its fantastic and that one HAS to really shell out big bucks to get close to the sound one desires. I have heard a few set ups that are considered superb in both tube and SS and then i hear some very simple affordable gear placed in small bombay apartments and frankly the sense of enjoyment is present in both. I dont know if a tube brings me any closer or whether my brain has less to process and hence enjoys the experience more.
Rgds