Audio Lounge - London

[bhagwan]

How many times have you seen an ad for a state of the art two channel music system in any half decent magazine ? But you see SLR camera, large TV and big car ads all over the place.

How many times have you seen a move scene where you see state of the art two channel music systems ? Hardly any !

Sir, the AD is there because people buy those products;
Simple.
There are several cars on the streets that cost 50 lacs ++
How many audio set ups have you heard [visited the residence] that cost 1- lacs ??
Not too many - cause, no one buys it.
If people were open to the idea of buying hiend audio systems - do you think the D & D's would miss that chance ?

Let us assume that AD's were placed in Top Magazines & Hoardings etc. and Rs. 5/- Cr. was spent on it [just for the sake of speculation] do you think audio systems worth 50 Cr would get sold ?

If AD's worth 5 Cr were placed for Cars - then cars worth 50 Cr would probably get sold.

There - if you were a D & D - what [rather where] would you spend your money & time on ?

 

[bhagwan]

a)
There are a lot of nice dealers whom I know who take a lot of pride in what they do and do their bit.

b)
But the public does not really respond in kind.

c)
For this to change, the brands need to do their job well. After all, marketing and promotion is their domain.

Sir,
You have mentioned 3 things;

a]
Yes, I second that - several D & D's [many are FM's] like what they do & do it well, so spot on.

b]
Yes, again.
The Fault is with the FM's & General Public @ large.
They still take demo in India & buy from Singapore / Audiogon etc.

c]
Do Not Agree.
There is D & D 'MARGIN' this is kept for Local Show Participation / Magazine AD's & Marketing.
Therefore the export price & retail price have so much 'difference' in it...
Do ponder over it.

O.T. Cars - Audi / BMW / Mercedes [Approximate Cost = 50 Lacs] what is the D & D's margin in it ? 5 to 7 to 10 % on the higher side & that too gets 'discounted'
In Audio the margins are way higher than that - that margin is given for AD's / Marketing / Show Participation etc.

Just my 2 cents;
Hope I have not offended any D & D's or FM's

 

[Nikhil]

It helps that your money is worth a lot more when you earn in Dollars and Pounds. Quite frankly I would be buying a whole lot of gear if I was able to buy a pair Magico Speakers for Rs 15,000 (if 1$ = Rs 1). Of course its not as simple as that but the fact is we are buying entry level gear in India for a significant amount of our resources (relative to our income).

 

[bhagwan]

If I was able to buy a pair Magico Speakers for Rs 15,000 (if 1$ = Rs 1).

Sir,
Just to go along - if you got Magico @ Rs. 15/- K you would buy it ?
I may not - simply because I do NOT Like the 'sound' from Alon's Speakers;
:sad:

But on a 'realistic' front - the PPP should be @ 15 : 1 & not @ 65 : 1 [This is fully different ball game - better we stay out of it]

 

[ranjeetrain]

It helps that your money is worth a lot more when you earn in Dollars and Pounds. Quite frankly I would be buying a whole lot of gear if I was able to buy a pair Magico Speakers for Rs 15,000 (if 1$ = Rs 1). Of course its not as simple as that but the fact is we are buying entry level gear in India for a significant amount of our resources (relative to our income).

^^ Absolutely. I totally agree with the above.

In US, a stereo amp can be had for the price of a meal with family in an average restaurant in New York city. In UK, a stereo amp can be had for much lesser than the price of a meal with family in an decent restaurant in London. But in India? The price of any decent audio gear is multiple folds of the monthly income of the average Joe. Whereas in the developed world it's just a part of their monthly savings. Even college students can afford decent separates systems only by cutting down on their extraneaous expenses. Can't say the same about Indian students.

The fact is that only a very very small percentage of our population can afford high-end audio gear. Even for them, it is a much bigger sacrifice (especially if they are married with kids and other responsibilities) compared to developed world. This is a truth that overrules all the analysis we have had here. Go back to 1947. Make 1 USD = 1 INR, and magically within 2-3 years, India would be the biggest consumers electronics market worldwide.

 

[arj]

..Make 1 USD = 1 INR, and magically within 2-3 years, India would be the biggest consumers electronics market worldwide.

..and the only way for us to survive as an economy would be High duty in importing/License Raj, leading to low disposable incomes...Circa 1980s

better to live a better life we have now than have better Hi Fi

we do have Indian manufacturers who do not make in only due to Brand value..i hope they also take it as an opportunity to move Up and at a better price point..at least for me, importing upgrade options are now only a distant possiblity..thanks god i got everything done earlier !!

 

[ranjeetrain]

..and the only way for us to survive as an economy would be High duty in importing/License Raj, leading to low disposable incomes...Circa 1980s

better to live a better life we have now than have better Hi Fi

we do have Indian manufacturers who do not make in only due to Brand value..i hope they also take it as an opportunity to move Up and at a better price point..at least for me, importing upgrade options are now only a distant possiblity..thanks god i got everything done earlier !!

Being an optimist I would like to think that License Raj wouldn't exist. One can dream, isn't it :lol:

Yes, rising dollar is a great great opportunity for Indian manufaturers to step up the gas. It's high time we build our own capability. Gradually folks will start trusting desi.

 

[square_wave]

I was just pointing out priorities of the general public towards 2 channel audio as compared to other products. I certainly believe that the promotion methods of the brands are to blame for the state of affairs to a large extent.

Added to this, the audio jewelry snob mentality of many of the boutique two channel shops make sure most of the sane people stay far away from them.

Completely agree with Nikhil and Ranjeet about pricing vs affordability in developing nations. This adds up and makes sure the two channel buyers are only hobbyists. The rest of the folks will listen to music on their multi-purpose HT system.

2 channel audio industry need to strive towards an attitude which promotes it and make it accessible to music lovers. Currently it promotes itself as some niche hobby which constricts its reach and keeps it customer base small and as a result prices very high.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The fact is that only a very very small percentage of our population can afford high-end audio gear. Even for them, it is a much bigger sacrifice (especially if they are married with kids and other responsibilities) compared to developed world.

I really feel you over-state the difference. only a very small percentage of any population can afford high-end audio gear.

As a middle-management guy in UK, my first hifi (first time living by myself: had to buy my own instead of living with other people's) was a real financial pain, funded by some freelance work, and having a system valued at over a lakh or two took years to achieve, bit by bit. Still I never got beyond mid-range before I decided to turn redundancy into retirement.

 

[arj]

I really feel you over-state the difference. only a very small percentage of any population can afford high-end audio gear.

.

exactly. and people who do so are those who have a passion for it and might give up on that bigger house/car for their Hifi.

there are people like that in our country too !

 

[ranjeetrain]

I really feel you over-state the difference. only a very small percentage of any population can afford high-end audio gear.

exactly. and people who do so are those who have a passion for it and might give up on that bigger house/car for their Hifi.

there are people like that in our country too !

Depends how you look at it. I can see a LARGE number of people complaining about affordability. I won't talk about others, but I can talk about myself.

I have the passion. I can appreciate high-end/ultra high-end gear and the joy/satisfaction it brings. But I can't buy. My family would look down upon me for mis-prioritising my life.

I avoid going to ultra high-end showrooms, despite living in the middle of a market full of exotic gear, because I know I would be torturing myself by knowing what I can have but don't have.

I agree, "there are people like that in our country too", but as an individual I feel the affordability IS an issue, much bigger one comparatively.


"thanks god i got everything done earlier !!" I am sure you implied you thanked God for getting things done before they became even less affordable

 

[Nikhil]

Sir,
Just to go along - if you got Magico @ Rs. 15/- K you would buy it ?
I may not - simply because I do NOT Like the 'sound' from Alon's Speakers;
:sad:

You're right. I would much rather have darTZeel NHB-18NS preamp (Rs 25,00) + NHB-458 mono blocks (Rs 1.5 lakh).
Pair them with Wilson Audio Specialties MAXX Series 3 (only Rs 68,000).
Source would Playback Designs MPS-5 (only Rs 15k)

For hardly Rs 2.6 lakh I would be happy as a clam in high water.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Depends how you look at it. I can see a LARGE number of people complaining about affordability. I won't talk about others, but I can talk about myself.

I have the passion. I can appreciate high-end/ultra high-end gear and the joy/satisfaction it brings. But I can't buy. My family would look down upon me for mis-prioritising my life.

I avoid going to ultra high-end showrooms, despite living in the middle of a market full of exotic gear, because I know I would be torturing myself by knowing what I can have but don't have.

I agree, "there are people like that in our country too", but as an individual I feel the affordability IS an issue, much bigger one comparatively.

Sure, but don't you think that I spent all those years in London doing just the same?

Even Richer Sounds could make a guy feel bad about what he couldn't afford, let alone anything further upmarket.

But having said that, there must be some difference, because it would certainly be nice if Chennai had half as many half-decent hifi shops as London does.

 

[ranjeetrain]

But having said that, there must be some difference, because it would certainly be nice if Chennai had half as many half-decent hifi shops as London does.

There you have it. That's where this thread started. Why would an Indian open a store in London not in Lucknow or Ludhiana? Because much less buyers! Affordability being a major concern.

 

[panditji]

Guys, we Indians have a lot of money.....Check out the stores selling high end watches, jewellery, clothes, restaurants/bars and you will be seeing huge numbers....The very average shopkeeper/trader's children do not blink when buying a beer for Rs.300 at the average pubs/bars and run up bills of Rs. 15,000 - 20,000 on a night out....

So no dearth of money in our country....

 

[bhagwan]

Being an optimist

Gradually folks will start trusting desi.

I do;

I use Amplifiers made in India - Pune.

Besides, I do think / believe & opine that they are amongst the best in the world, I have ever heard;:clapping:

 

[bhagwan]

There you have it. That's where this thread started. Why would an Indian open a store in London not in Lucknow or Ludhiana? Because much less buyers! Affordability being a major concern.

I am not so sure - if people in Punjab & Chandigarh can or cannot 'afford'
I am not sure on the facts, but I believe that maximum number of 'luxury' cars in India are sold in the above stated places;
Therefore Money does exist - I think the problem lies in 'awareness' & 2 channel audio being on their 'priority list'

p.s. Kindly excuse my example - it cannot be substantiated by me - cars of high value being sold in Punjab etc.

 

[bhagwan]

Guys, we Indians have a lot of money.....Check out the stores selling high end watches, jewellery, clothes, restaurants/bars and you will be seeing huge numbers....The very average shopkeeper/trader's children do not blink when buying a beer for Rs.300 at the average pubs/bars and run up bills of Rs. 15,000 - 20,000 on a night out....

So no dearth of money in our country....

I would tend to agree with 'panditji's statement.
India has the money.
The money gets spent.
However, that money never gets to 2 channel audio - simply because the buyer is not initiated; simple.

They [rich person] will spend on Jewels / Watches / Clothes / House Interiors / Cars etc. etc.
Will also spend a lot on HT Set up - simply because it can play 'loud' & there can be an 'impression' created when his family & guests visit, but 2 channel audio is about nuances & finesse & those things take a lot of time / efforts / patience / listening ability etc. to develop.

All of you can try this @ home.
When you have guest @ home - play some music & ask your guest to sit in the centre of the audio set up [sweet spot] & ask them to find the phantom centre - just observe the result you encounter;
You shall be surprised - trust me...

 

[sound and music]

A decade ago, Cadence had appointed dealers in few metros (including Delhi, Chennai and Bangalore) and had also hired a few individuals (audiophiles like Shivraj Singh who is based in Noida) for arranging demos as well as marketing and sales support. Cadence also used to give ads in hi-fi magazines and many of its products were reviewed in Av Max and business magazines.

I bought Cadence Divas in 2000 through Shivraj who arranged a demo at my place and allowed me to use the demo piece for few days with no conditions attached. I learnt a lot from him in our subsequent meetings.

I think this arrangement continued till 2005. After that, Cadence started concentrating on international markets. Since I have no clue about the state of affairs at Cadence, I can't speculate on the reasons behind this shift.

In any case, Cadence produces niche products. In metros and big cities, there is sizable market for Cadence products (from cables to amps to speakers) provided their business model is sustainable. If not a full-fledged store in all metros, at least a store-within-a-store model may be worth trying for Cadence.

In the last 13 years, I have replaced many amps, CD players, cables and dacs but I never thought of replacing Divas. This is despite the fact that I may get a higher price today than what I paid for Divas in 2000.

 

[soundofmusic]

Stereo will always be a Niche Market through out the world. My Cousin who is a resident of Canada does not know about the brand Bryston. The awareness about stereo is not there through out the world simply because most people's hobby is not music and even if it is then they are happy listening music in their HT systems.
Again Stereo is a Selfish product according to me. We audiophiles sit in the sweet spot, switches off the light and close our eyes and listens to music for hours together, the other members of the house go crazy when they see this and we cant expect them to sit behind us and enjoy the music the way we do.
Even if the Dartzeel is sold for 1.5 Lakhs the sales may increase according to the number of audiophiles in a country thats it. It will never reach a common people because of lack of Interest rather then lack of Exposure.
Products like Dartzeel or even a Bryston or Theil is not affordable to an average person living in America or Europe.

Cheers