B&W 683 5.1 theatre vs CM9 theatre for 221 sq.ft. bedroom?

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Few queries here:
- whats the difference between smart UPS & online UPS?
- How to convert " IEC 320 C13" at the back of UPS to normal 3 pin connector ?
Thanks

 

[navin advani]

Few queries here:
- whats the difference between smart UPS & online UPS?
- How to convert " IEC 320 C13" at the back of UPS to normal 3 pin connector ?
Thanks

I maybe be wrong but I believe the online UPS has no switchover time.

 

[Eddierockks]

An Apc online ups would always be better than an inverter mainly coz it would not trip the avr or other equips on power failure... You should have a good sinewave inverter for the full house mainly for longer backup which the UPS should be mainly to the prevent the tripping of equips when the light goes... As such it does not really matter if ur UPS has 5 min backup for 2 hour backup as its only use is during the 2 sec period when the light goes or comes back on...You should save on the batteries of the UPS & invest in more batteries for ur main house inverter... I guess ur inverter for the full house would be 5-6kva min...

Where I live we fortunately do not have power outages. But I would subscribe to RajaDeep's view. If you live in an area where you do have frequent power outages it makes sense to get an Inverter with Battery backup for that equipment that you would consider critical - for example fans, lights, and fridges - for the functioning of the house (audio as much we love it is not a critical function). Obviously all these items would need to be on a circuit that is separate from the air-conditioners, water heaters and other high watt but non-critical devices otherwise you would have to physically check that these devices are off during a power failure to extend the time that the battery can run your house/apartment.

For other devices like the audio system or computers you can use an Online UPS or Smart UPS. I would assume you wont be drawing more than 1000VA in actual continous use hence you can get 15-30 mins of backup with any of these.
APC Smart-UPS 2200VA USB & Serial 230V
APC Smart-UPS RC 3000VA 230V Harsh Environment
APC Smart-UPS RT 3000VA 230V RM Harsh Environment

I maybe be wrong but I believe the online UPS has no switchover time.

Hi again everyone,

Recently, the distributor for APC visited my office and kind of convinced me to purchase a APC SURTD5000XLI-CC Online UPS (5KVA or 3500W) in lieu of 3KVA Smart UPS Online (2100W) from APC itself. This model has 16 x 7ah batteries placed internally in the UPS and should give me a backup of 15 minutes at the minimum at my current load of 1900W, the maximum backup time could be 30 minutes which he said was very much possible because essentially, if I buy this 5KVA model and use it at half capacity, it would increase the life of the UPS+batteries when compared to same 1900W load on a 3KVA (2100W) online UPS. With this 5KVA model, he says I can even place it in my room and as there's a need for more backup, I can add external batteries as well in the future (and obviously shift it out of my room) to increase the total backup. I'm calculating the load as under and you are welcome to correct me wherever I'm wrong:

1. Denon 4520 CI AVR - 1600W (800W but my HT dealer has told me to count double than that i.e. 1600W because of the jerk load when starting it up). I know it would sound really ignorant when I ask you this but I can't get my head clear of this noob doubt: When calculating the total load of equipment, do I need to take into account 1600W (800W normally) of the AVR only or I should add up the wattage of the speakers as well along with AVR's wattage?
CM9 x 2 = 400W
CMC2 x 1 = 200W
DS3 x 2 = 200W
Total load of the speakers = 800W

So should I sum up the the AVR's 1600W load with speakers load of 800W resulting in 2400W or it would be right to consider 1600W load of the AVR only? My dealer is not really sure about that and this surprises me so I thought of asking it from you guys.

2. Samsung Plasma 51" PS51D550 - 350W maximum (as checked on the product specs). I am not sure if jerk load is applicable to all devices or just the AVR. Please advise.

3. WD TV Live Hub - 12W max
4. Tata Sky+ HD - 36W max
5. Playstation 3 500GB - 190W
6. Oppo BDP 93 - 35W
7. Apple TV - 20W (couldn't find the actual power consumption but as it states that Apple TV comes with a 6W power supply cable, that is why, I have taken a lot of margin here.

Total load of all equipment = 1893W or let's sum it up to 1900W. In the future, if I get a projector + screen, I would need an online UPS for the pj. Or if I alternatively, buy a 65" tv instead, still that would require more power. So I hope this 5KVA model can easily support my current HT setup, and still allows me to connect my iMac, HTPC, Xbox 360 as well as PS3 80GB (first generation). According to APC, if I buy a 3KVA UPS and use it at full capacity, there are very likely a lot of chances that the inverter would fail very very soon. The same has been told by the EATON UPS guys as well when I called on their toll free number for advice regarding a 3KVA UPS. Even EATON suggested me to buy a 6KVA (because they don't have a 5KVA model after 3KVA in their product lineup.

I've been quoted 65,000 Rs + 9.35% tax = 71,000 Rs approx for the above mentioned 5KVA model and there's a little possibility of discount as I have not yet negotiated with them. Another APC 5KVA online UPS model that comes with external batteries would roughly cost me 86,000 Rs with double the backup (30 mins as claimed by company but the dealer says it should be 1 hour atleast with that model). I don't think spending 15,000 Rs more for 15 mins. is a good step.

What are your thoughts on this? Please advise, thanks.

Best Regards.

 

[Eddierockks]

I checked the total power load of my home and it is 55-60KW. I have 1.5 KVA pure sine wave inverter from Sukam for the ground floor and 2 weeks ago, I got another 1.5 KVA Sukam "Shiny" pure sine wave inverter for the first floor as well. For the 2nd floor, I would get another inverter as and when it is ready. I also have a Sudhir Cummins 35KW Silent DG as well. Once, the house is renovated, we are planning to upgrade the existing DG unit or add an extra one as well because I have an elevator installed from KONE and they've recommended to get a separate 15KW DG for the elevator only. Now, for home theatre usage, I have a B&W 5.1 in my bedroom, my father would use my previous Onkyo HTS 3400 HTIB and for my brother's room, he might get a 55" BOSE LED TV (which I've already said no to) or he would get a 55" tv alongwith Dali Ikon 6 MK2 5.1 setup (which I really really like and recommend). I would also have a separate HT room which would obviously have the HT + a bar counter as well. Max to max I would get 3-4 recliners at the longer end of the HT room and rest I might end up with different seating for friends like chairs/couches + tables.

Now, I am thinking that if all of this needs proper online ups', I would have to get 3-4 of these. Or then I consider the fact my parents aren't used to using an AVR so I should sell off the Onkyo 3400 which is in excellent condition. 18 months old and in proper working condition. Does anybody have an idea as to how much can I sell it for in the market? The MRP was 33,000 Rs at that time.

My brother is not so fond of using a HT setup as well sadly. I am beginning to think that maybe I should just have a HT setup in my room + the HT room and NONE in my parents' and brother's room. They might be happier with a proper soundbar for daily use. Anyways, these are just my thoughts and wanted to share them with you folks.

Awaiting your further suggestions and comments on deciding the Online UPS, cheers

Warm Regards.

 

[navin advani]

Hi again everyone,

Recently, the distributor for APC visited my office and kind of convinced me to purchase a APC SURTD5000XLI-CC Online UPS (5KVA or 3500W) in lieu of 3KVA Smart UPS Online (2100W) from APC itself.

1. Denon 4520 CI AVR - 1600W (800W but my HT dealer has told me to count double than that i.e. 1600W because of the jerk load

2. Samsung Plasma 51" PS51D550 - 350W maximum (as checked on the product specs).

Eddie, you are really over thinking this.

1. I believe 3KVA would be enough for your system. 5KVA would obviously offer you a nice margin of safety.

2. It is not called jerk load - the correct term is starting current (a term usually reserved for motors and compressors), turn on current or surge current. This used to be a problem and was usually a small peak for just a few milliseconds but most modern AVRs have a soft start circuit to resolve this.

Eddie, I think you need to ignore all this mumbo jumbo. Connect everything and enjoy the system. I wonder if Jimi Hendrix would have made any music if he wondered about how hard he was driving the EL34 tubes of his Marshall and what the clipping current was etc....I hope you get my drift.

Stop thinking and start enjoying. You have a good system.

 

[Eddierockks]

After quite some research, I finally bought the Apc SURT6000 XLI-CC first floor at my house. Reason why I bought a bigger model is due to the power fluctuations, this time another Sony 2007 LCD went bad and now would not work. Luckily, the fault was minor but I was told that voltage fluctuations and unclean power are major reasons why first the 32" Samsung 2009 Led and now this 32" Sony LCD went bad. So this online ups would cover my ht, my parents room led, Onkyo 3400, ps3 for blurays purposes & Tata sky hd+, and lastly, the guest room which includes that recently repaired Sony LCD with Tata sky hd. I plan to buy a 10 kva model as well which will cover the dedicated ht cum lounge as well as the ground floor later by the end of this year.

I'll post it's pictures tomorrow, looks really nice and slick, apc made me a fan this time. And by the way, I'd to pay 81,900 RS for it tax paid.

Eddie, you are really over thinking this.

1. I believe 3KVA would be enough for your system. 5KVA would obviously offer you a nice margin of safety.

2. It is not called jerk load - the correct term is starting current (a term usually reserved for motors and compressors), turn on current or surge current. This used to be a problem and was usually a small peak for just a few milliseconds but most modern AVRs have a soft start circuit to resolve this.

Eddie, I think you need to ignore all this mumbo jumbo. Connect everything and enjoy the system. I wonder if Jimi Hendrix would have made any music if he wondered about how hard he was driving the EL34 tubes of his Marshall and what the clipping current was etc....I hope you get my drift.

Stop thinking and start enjoying. You have a good system.

 

[Eddierockks]

Here's a picture of APC SURT6000 XLI-CC Online UPS that I have recently purchased. I've got the connections done, input and output earthing done and have removed the previously used Microtek Offline 1KVa UPS x 2 pcs. from my HT setup that I was previously using. Currently, I have 2 Belkin Gold Series 8 socket surge protectors installed which are connected directly to the power outlet and bridge the power supply to my HT equipment. It has been running smooth so far.

If I am doing anything wrong here, please let me know. Cheers

 

[Eddierockks]

Hi again everyone, my system is running good *touchwood* and I really enjoy it on a daily basis. It has become a matter of pride for me amongst my friends and family. Everybody is always excited to use it, test it and embrace it. Overall, I am very happy with my purchase. The only pending task is buying the Rotel pre power combo which I plan to do end 2015 when I will be setting up my dedicated HT room as I would shift the Denon 4520CI there and buy the pre power Rotels for myself

Btw, I am yet to buy a stabilizer for my Velodyne SPL 1200 Ultra. Have not put in on the Online UPS and don't wish to as well. I can't really make out as to which brand to buy like V Guard, etc. V Guard has various models for TV, Fridge, etc. etc. but no dedicated option for Subwoofer of this capacity. What are the points to be kept in mind before making this purchase? What capacity should I consider? Which make? Thanks in advance for your valuable suggestions. Good day everyone!

 

[RKN]

Hi,

What about Indiana line diva 655

 

[srikar2011]

Hi again everyone, my system is running good *touchwood* and I really enjoy it on a daily basis. It has become a matter of pride for me amongst my friends and family. Everybody is always excited to use it, test it and embrace it. Overall, I am very happy with my purchase. The only pending task is buying the Rotel pre power combo which I plan to do end 2015 when I will be setting up my dedicated HT room as I would shift the Denon 4520CI there and buy the pre power Rotels for myself

Btw, I am yet to buy a stabilizer for my Velodyne SPL 1200 Ultra. Have not put in on the Online UPS and don't wish to as well. I can't really make out as to which brand to buy like V Guard, etc. V Guard has various models for TV, Fridge, etc. etc. but no dedicated option for Subwoofer of this capacity. What are the points to be kept in mind before making this purchase? What capacity should I consider? Which make? Thanks in advance for your valuable suggestions. Good day everyone!

I have a plan to buy 3 KVA APC online ups where I would like to connect my subwoofer also to it. May I know why you have not kept your subwoofer on your online ups which is far better than a stabilizer like V Guard.

Regards
Srikar

 

[Eddierockks]

I have a plan to buy 3 KVA APC online ups where I would like to connect my subwoofer also to it. May I know why you have not kept your subwoofer on your online ups which is far better than a stabilizer like V Guard.

Regards
Srikar

Hi Srikar I've not connected my sub to the online ups for the simple reason that it may consume a lot of energy and may eventually harm the ups since the peak current IIRC was around 2400w on my sub. The 6 kva ups as it is supports 4100w of load. Currently it is powering my 5 speakers, Epson TW 8200 projector, time capsule, modem router and few other things too. I could be wrong in my assumption here but back then, even my installer asked me not to put the sub load on the ups. Good luck with your purchase.

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[Eddierockks]

B&W 683 5.1 theatre vs CM9 theatre for 221 sq.ft. bedroom?

Hi again everyone. Hope you all are doing great!

I have been living in a different room in the same house for the 2.5 years and now, I will be shifting back to my previous room with some changes in about 2 months time. Now contemplating whether to upgrade to Dolby Atmos sound or not with getting one or two pair of in ceiling speakers. The room is not in a perfect rectangular shape. The length stays consistent at 17 feet while the width is 13 feet at the front end (where the tv and speakers would be placed) and measures 19 feet at the rear end of the room. The tv wall is more sacrificed because it houses a door that leads into the dressing room. It takes up about 3-3'6" of space on the right side and yes, I have considered moving it but it is not possible. So in total I am left with roughly 9' of space to house the tv along with LCR speakers, a subwoofer as well as a tv cabinet to house all the equipment. How the extra space has been made in the room is by getting rid of a 9'x6' area that was supposed to be a store for misc storage. This has definitely given us more space but the room is now not perfectly symmetrical.

Now I have a few doubts which I am going to write down below. As always, any and all help is welcome :clapping:

1. Can the Denon 4520CI AVR be used as a power amp when say I buy the OPPO 205 and would want it to do the processing duties?

2. The OPPO 205 also has an HDMI input which I would like to use with my latest generation Apple TV. Again I would want the OPPO's premium DACs to do the processing duties but how do I connect the cables to my Denon in that case? I spoke to one of my friends who also has limited AV knowledge like me and he said that I would have to use RCA cables from OPPO to the Denon AVR. Is that right?

3. I initially wanted to upgrade to separates in the beginning only when I had purchased my speakers but the budget constraint pushed me to the AVR route. I had then considered buying separates later on and using this Denon in a dedicated HT room which sadly never happened (and never will). I am surprised at the pace technology progresses these days even in the AV dept. It is more like mobiles only because every 6-8 months, a new feature gets announced.

So here is my dilemma with no set budget in sight at the moment:

4. Should I forget about Dolby Atmos and just buy the OPPO 203/205?

5. Should I forget about Dolby Atmos and buy an Emotiva or similarly priced power amp to see an overall improvement? The same setup has been very monotonous lately and I feel like doing something about it. It does sound very nice but I want it nicer!

6. Should I buy a latest gen AVR instead with Dolby Atmos?

7. Should I buy a latest gen separates? Not sure if I have the budget for the same though. I am looking to spend around 2 lacs on the system just for an idea. Not sure which way to go right now.

I am also looking for recommendations on a professional with great experience to design my AV setup including cabling, the cabinet, wire management, in-ceiling speakers in the room, maybe get a pair installed in the dressing area as well as the washroom. The local ones aren't upto the task as per my taste and dodge most of the technical questions. Knowledge of home automation as well would be great.

Thanks for reading!

 

[Naturelover]

Re: B&W 683 5.1 theatre vs CM9 theatre for 221 sq.ft. bedroom?

Eddie, all this investment and planning for the audio part and a mere TV for the video? Do look into getting a projector.
Where are you located?

 

[Eddierockks]

Re: B&W 683 5.1 theatre vs CM9 theatre for 221 sq.ft. bedroom?

Eddie, all this investment and planning for the audio part and a mere TV for the video? Do look into getting a projector.
Where are you located?

Hello! I in fact have been using my Epson TW-8200 projector for the last 2 years. Recently, I have purchased an LG OLED 65" C7 TV which I plan to use in the bedroom as well. The pj is full HD so no plans of using it at the moment. I'm from Ludhiana.

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[DS123456]

Hi Eddie,

Firstly LOL, for I must have read your thread a few times before when you went for B&W CM for the first time, only to midway wanting to buy 2 systems B&W 683 & Dali (was it IKON MK II) after checking with your Delhi friend (was his name Akash?)

Coincidentally, I was enamored with B&W. Hence, read your thread a few times. Eventually, I found out what B&W does to sound spectrum frequencies (details later), and decided to go the Dali route.

Anyways, coming to current situation:
Yet again I found both sailing in same boat: AVR or Separates? In this regard, I must have had discussion with various people in UK, Finland, India et al, wherein some have systems worthy of dream (Mark Levinson, Martion Logans and what not). For my (as well as yours) room size, its NOT REQUIRED. Period.

Still the itch to upgrade? Ahh the feeling of separates? Right
Well, in that case, go for separates.

1. Invest in quality power amp, since Amp's functionality doesn't change with changing times and technology per se.

2. Oppo UDP 205 should be able to handle Pre Amp scenario. That's what makes it twice as costlier w.r.t Oppo 203 (same was diff between Oppo 105 v/s 103)

3. Rendering current (cheap) Denon as power amp, you'd be doing gross injustice to your setup. Guess why? Lets go to basics of AVR. AVR is multi-functionality machine - handling pre, power amp, video to name a few. If you assign cost to each component, you'll find a Rs 1 lac AVR is effectively housing a Rs 30K amp section for 7.1 channel. In turn, this means, amplification cost is Rs 4.1K/channel. And this amp is driving a Rs 1 lac/speaker (approx). Can you feel the mismatch?

In nutshell your Denon can't possibly be power amp for your quality set-up. If you want/expect reference level performance, this "derived" amp will not suffice, not matter what you used for Pre stage. Period.

Alternatively, you're buying Oppo 205 which will sort your Pre. Then why not buy a quality dedicated Power Amp (once and for all), and sell Denon or use in other setup? And if you're keen on using Denon, cheaper Oppo 203 & Denon would make more sense. In layman's terms - Why buy socks costing Rs 2000, when shoes costs Rs 100??? This would be quite a mismatch.

Well, you got room size on your side, you should of straight away got Projector.
Some of the best performers in respective budget categories:
1. < $ 1000: Benq HT3050
2. < $ 2000: Sony VPL 54ES
3. < $ 4000: Epson 5040UB (UBE version is wireless, costing $ 300 upwards)
Note: They're US models & prices. Europe/India have different names. Pl cross-check.

Lastly, am using Oppo 103D to route signal from Tata Sky (though not using it as Pre)
SQ/PQ both are much better, esp SQ.

Tata Sky -> Oppo 103D -> Marantz SR 6010 -> Benq HT 3050 & 5.1 Speakers

The intent above was not to find fault, but to make you realize why AVR costs less than dedicated separates. Either go full separate or AVR. Mixing it (and esp using AVR as Power Amp) would not reap any great dividends. It 'might' tantamount to throwing away your money.

Would like to hear your views. Thanks!

Take care.

 

[DS123456]

Edit: Sony VPL 45ES *

 

[Eddierockks]

Re: B&amp;W 683 5.1 theatre vs CM9 theatre for 221 sq.ft. bedroom?

Hi guys! From last 15 days that I've got a new TV, the audio output from my AVR keeps dropping while the video still plays flawlessly. I've tested this using various sources like Apple TV, Tata Sky and LG bluray player. Reading about on the internet, one common solution was to blow air into the headphone jack of the Denon AVR but that has gone in vain so far. I've also switched hdmi cables to check whether a cable was faulty or not. Called a local AV installer home today and he was unable to identify the problem. Says the unit has to be sent to Delhi at Denon service center. Any suggestions that I can try? I'd be more than thankful.

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[Eddierockks]

after checking with your Delhi friend (was his name Akash?)

No, but my name is Aakash!

Anyways, coming to current situation:
Yet again I found both sailing in same boat: AVR or Separates?.. its NOT REQUIRED. Period.

Still the itch to upgrade? Ahh the feeling of separates? Right
Well, in that case, go for separates.

1. Invest in quality power amp, since Amp's functionality doesn't change with changing times and technology per se.

Agreed! That's the plan, at least for now! hyeah:

2. Oppo UDP 205 should be able to handle Pre Amp scenario. That's what makes it twice as costlier w.r.t Oppo 203 (same was diff between Oppo 105 v/s 103)

Yes it surely can, but I am guessing that it can only play the cd transport and act as a preamp processor for ONLY 1 device, an Apple TV in my case. The other devices would be left out right?

3. Rendering current (cheap) Denon as power amp, you'd be doing gross injustice to your setup. Guess why? Lets go to basics of AVR. AVR is multi-functionality machine - handling pre, power amp, video to name a few. If you assign cost to each component, you'll find a Rs 1 lac AVR is effectively housing a Rs 30K amp section for 7.1 channel. In turn, this means, amplification cost is Rs 4.1K/channel. And this amp is driving a Rs 1 lac/speaker (approx). Can you feel the mismatch?

In nutshell your Denon can't possibly be power amp for your quality set-up. If you want/expect reference level performance, this "derived" amp will not suffice, not matter what you used for Pre stage. Period.

Alternatively, you're buying Oppo 205 which will sort your Pre. Then why not buy a quality dedicated Power Amp (once and for all), and sell Denon or use in other setup? And if you're keen on using Denon, cheaper Oppo 203 & Denon would make more sense. In layman's terms - Why buy socks costing Rs 2000, when shoes costs Rs 100??? This would be quite a mismatch.

Understood! Like I mentioned earlier, I have this sudden requirement of getting a system that can play Dolby Atmos, hence the requirement to change the Denon. I don't have another setup and using it as a preamp would not help me in getting closer to ATMOS.

3. < $ 4000: Epson 5040UB (UBE version is wireless, costing $ 300 upwards)
Note: They're US models & prices. Europe/India have different names. Pl cross-check.

My model name is 5030UB I guess! But I already have got this 4k OLED TV that is just absolutely beautiful!

Lastly, am using Oppo 103D to route signal from Tata Sky (though not using it as Pre)
SQ/PQ both are much better, esp SQ.

Tata Sky -> Oppo 103D -> Marantz SR 6010 -> Benq HT 3050 & 5.1 Speakers

What are the other sources in your setup? Any media players too?

The intent above was not to find fault, but to make you realize why AVR costs less than dedicated separates. Either go full separate or AVR. Mixing it (and esp using AVR as Power Amp) would not reap any great dividends. It 'might' tantamount to throwing away your money.

Would like to hear your views. Thanks!

Take care.

Yes as of now, I am looking for separates only based on your explanation and a little bit of research that I did when I initially got the system. What would be your recommendations for separates? Yamaha? Marantz? Rotel? Parasound? Others?? I would love to know your opinion. Spoke to a dealer today who said that Marantz separates get really hot within 30 minutes of use so he was recommending Yamaha to me. I want to sell off my Denon and my PJ and get separates. That's the update for today.

Cheers!

 

[Eddierockks]

Hello again!

Searching for separates and have been suggested Yamaha, Marantz or Onkyo in the same order of recommendations. Which one would you guys suggest for my setup? I am not considering Parasound or other hifi brands at the moment because of after sales service support being in Mumbai for such brands. Other mainstream brands have service centres in Punjab or Delhi.

Thanks!

 

[Eddierockks]

The wait for Cedia 2017 new product launches was killing me! So I ended up buying a Yamaha 1060 AVR for the time being. The Denon 4520 is packed nicely and would be put for sale very shortly. I wanted to upgrade to Dolby Atmos and also hear the sound signature of yamaha AV products mainly before buying their pre pro i.e CX A 5100 and MX5000.

The other option was Marantz. But I read that Marantz 7012 would be launched in September and a new 13.2 ch 8012 would launch by December. New Yamaha 3070 is also expected by the end of August.

The Denon just misses out on Atmos and that's it. It's discomforting that technological changes are happening at such a fast pace that every 8-10 months, a new AV receiver is launched. Makes me think whether buying a pre processor is even worth it. What do you guys think?

Here's a picture:

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