Vivek Batra
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I am already happy with my very basic set of cables.
Cables Recommendation
- Thread starter Vivek Batra
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Vivek Batra
Well-Known Member
May be till you find something better...and have the time and patience to explore more.
D
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Hi Guys
So I am finally done with my testing of different cables in my system. My conclusion may upset many guys over here. I tried power cables, XLR cables and bunch of speaker cables with my setup.
In short I didn't find any difference at all or a noticeable difference by swapping different cables one by one (all cables were from good brands and not cheap). I do not want to metion the brand names on purpose. Neither do I have any intention to discourage any one to not try different cables. Being a very subjective experiece, one may or may not find any difference.
The only difference I found was "visual" ofcourse the expensive cables look good, better build quality may be over stock cable. But do they make any difference? at least for me the answer is NO.
I am not against buying the good made cables, but I won't recommend cables that cost a bomb. For me thats a total eywash nothing more than marketing gimmick.
Rest use your own judgement/brains and spend wisely. I am glad I saved a good amount of money by not spending on just "visually" good looking cables.
I just found this on Audioholics Channel about power cables. I would suggest to watch this video. Gene has similar views about speaker cables and interconnects.
Regards
Vivek
@Vivek Batra, it’s surprising that you didn’t hear any differences across a large range of cables though your components are resolving enough. It’s one thing to hear the differences and then conclude that they aren’t improvements over the stock cable and another to not hear any differences at all. I would speculate the likely cause to be either:
a) your system isn’t set properly (placement, shelves etc) and there’s a subsequent distortion that masks any differences caused by the cables, or
b) your ears are still in early days of getting trained to notice the differences.
I’d imagine it’s the latter as you are in your early audiophile days. And please don’t mistake me, I am just being frank and not condescending. I remember four years ago when I started putting together my system and starting the journey as an audiophile (distinct from a music lover), I couldn’t hear 90% of the differences I hear today (which is still a long way to evolve further).
You know, even when you learn classical music, the teacher says you need to listen a lot and what they call - ‘train the ear’. And they help improve your listening (what to hear for) through constant observations and feedback.
Having said that, it can be a personal choice to not invest in developing one’s ear, and be satisfied/happy with enjoying the music whatever way it’s playing, But better done with a conclusion that ‘I am satisfied with not hearing the differences’ than concluding ‘there aren’t any differences’ - like the proponents of the kind of video you have posted.
For many a years I could not make out the difference between Lata and Asha singing, often confusing one for the other. Today far less (though I still confuse when I listen to their early songs). That doesn’t mean there’s no difference between their voices. Most new/casual listeners to classical music are not able to differentiate Jasraj and Bhimsen Joshi early on - but begin to do so as they learn to discern their voices and singing styles.
All I am saying is that a significant part/joy of the hobby for many of us is to keep developing our ‘sense of hearing’ - to not just enjoy the music, but also appreciate the nuances - both in the music and the sound. From what I have been observing through your various threads, you are a seeker - someone with quest, and I would be surprised if you don’t seek to develop your hearing further.
There are of course different ways of listening - some of us listen analytically, some holistically/integrally. Some of us flit between analysis and integration back and forth. Those are personal preferences. Analytical listeners will look for (and perceive) changes in specific details. But even holistic listeners can have well-trained ears that pick subtle differences in the ease/naturalness, flow, balance, musicality etc.
If you remember one of my comments in an earlier thread of yours (where we had a pun on ‘nus/nerve’) I said you will gradually warm up to the long journey - with its learnings and iterations that this hobby entails. Your quest is too strong not to do so and instead settle down with whatever sound one gets with what one has bought. Just increase your ‘frustration tolerance’. No pain, no gain here too.
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Timed out on editing to above post, so writing this separately.
@Vivek Batra, I might come across as ‘confronting’ in the post above, but please understand it comes from concern. You aren’t the kind of guy who puts a lot of money into his first system just because he can afford to do so. Most high end hi-fi shops owe their survival to such clientele for whom the purchase is ‘high cost, but low involvement’.
Your purchase journey, on the contrary, has been ‘very high involvement’ - I haven’t seen a larger online exploration, discussion and deliberation in this forum than when you purchased the speakers and each component. That’s you!
Likewise, you also need to prepare yourself for (and look forward to) a ‘high post-purchase involvement’ to get the best out of your purchases. You need to shed the paradigm that ‘once I get the best components together, I can settle down with listening’ (which you had voiced earlier). That happens only if you don’t evolve as a listener any further - with its own consequential shortchange. That’s highly improbable for an active hobbyist like you. So, instead of looking at these learnings and trials as frustrating, start looking at them as an integral part of the hobby. At least initially on (few quarters to a few years) before you settle down. Because then, your listening would be far richer than now. Your purchases would be utilised far closer to their potential than now. After all, ‘actualisation’ is one of the highest motives we strive for!
@Vivek Batra, I might come across as ‘confronting’ in the post above, but please understand it comes from concern. You aren’t the kind of guy who puts a lot of money into his first system just because he can afford to do so. Most high end hi-fi shops owe their survival to such clientele for whom the purchase is ‘high cost, but low involvement’.
Your purchase journey, on the contrary, has been ‘very high involvement’ - I haven’t seen a larger online exploration, discussion and deliberation in this forum than when you purchased the speakers and each component. That’s you!
Likewise, you also need to prepare yourself for (and look forward to) a ‘high post-purchase involvement’ to get the best out of your purchases. You need to shed the paradigm that ‘once I get the best components together, I can settle down with listening’ (which you had voiced earlier). That happens only if you don’t evolve as a listener any further - with its own consequential shortchange. That’s highly improbable for an active hobbyist like you. So, instead of looking at these learnings and trials as frustrating, start looking at them as an integral part of the hobby. At least initially on (few quarters to a few years) before you settle down. Because then, your listening would be far richer than now. Your purchases would be utilised far closer to their potential than now. After all, ‘actualisation’ is one of the highest motives we strive for!
rikhav
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No way discounting the efforts by Vivek but this for me is the mother of all amplifier discussion threads
We miss asit da and dinyaar bhai all the more today when two channel is literally dieing
www.hifivision.com
We miss asit da and dinyaar bhai all the more today when two channel is literally dieing
Amp upgrade with Canton speakers: Feasibility study
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%% Edited to provide some indexing to help a new reader find the relevant part he/she may be looking for in this very long thread filled with very valuable inputs from the members (this indexing is copied from post #4 of the thread...
www.hifivision.com
Sachin, very well put. But I am not sure Vivek didn’t hear differences. I thought he didn’t find them worthwhile.
And Rikhav, Asit’s understanding of tone, timbre, nuances is probably higher than everyone of us here. He is a professional sitar player with many concerts under him. I think he even used to accompany Ravi Shankar at times. Being a scientist himself, Asit’s understanding of material differences and manufacturing processes in wires was also very good.
And Rikhav, Asit’s understanding of tone, timbre, nuances is probably higher than everyone of us here. He is a professional sitar player with many concerts under him. I think he even used to accompany Ravi Shankar at times. Being a scientist himself, Asit’s understanding of material differences and manufacturing processes in wires was also very good.
Vivek Batra
Well-Known Member
@SachinChavan First of all, thanks for defining me, I really like that. Thanks for your appreciation and not getting me wrong on the money matters
I think I should been more careful about my words, I might have used very strong words when defining my experience with cables. Rather than concluding something I should have shared this as my obsevations. Now what could be the possibilities.
1. I am too lazy and impatient, I admit that
2. The way I adopted to test various cables was not right at all. One thing I reliazed after returning the cables, that I like to keep the loudness control on all the time at my listening level which is 9'0 clock. I should have cranked up a bit with all the settings to neutral and then see if I hear any difference. May be loudness control is already compensating the shortcomings in the signal.
3. My source is a limiting factor and it can not deliver what its delivering right now (Tidal played from Laptop to DAC with a printer USB cable, to be noted I have not tried any better USB cable till now.)
4. I do not know what else exits and this makes me happy with my system what it is the way it is. This is kind of good for me in the sense that I am not running after anything for the moment. It could be sub optimal, in that case I need to discover more what I do not know about sound and then come back again to achieve the same experience from my gear.
5. I am not very critical and anlytical? (this is very less likely though
, becuase I am and I won't accept anything if I have to do any compromise on quality and my expectation).6. My expecations are not that great still from a sound system.
7. I agree on what you said that I shouldn't develop this notion that I have the best gear and it can not be further improved. There is always a room for getting the best out of what we have.
8. I was already too frustrated with my previous purchase mistakes that I do not want to do more experiments now.
7. Or there is not difference actually
8. My auditory memory is too weak to dicern any difference from different cables by powering down everything, switching cables and then restarting. I think only side by side comparision is worthwhile.
9. By any chance if there was any difference say 10 % more gain or what ever, even then I would say not worth spending too much on cables.
10. I haven't burn more than 60 to 70 hour on earch component yet. This could be a reason if burn in really makes a difference.
11. Rest, I am still too naive and will learn a lot everyday.
I would say for me the difference is not that noticeable as I have heard people claiming on the internet. The difference can not be that great that it converts the dissatifaction to wow factor or I need a real good EAR opener.
Regards
Vivek
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That is pretty much the crux of it Vivek, the problem of subjective interpretation of differences in cables (and other components as well, specifically accessories) - One person's huge difference is another person's barely noticeable. And this is quite rampant on the internet including our forum as well. For me at-least, my ears always have the final say and I give the greatest weight to that, as you are.
Cheers,
Sid
I am already happy with my very basic set of cables.
Hi Vivek,
If you are already happy with your cables then that seals it & its time to enjoy the music. After all the purchases you have made are for your end goal which is listening to good music with quality sound. If you are happy with the sound, then the period of analysis is over & the time for music enjoyment starts. Its no use always analysing each & every track you listen to after your system is set since some songs may be recorded well & others may not be so good which a good system shows up easily.
I feel happy for you that you have reached a conclusion for your needs & your ears are the final decider. Nothing else matters.
Best Regards,
Nitin
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Vivek Batra
Well-Known Member
Hi Nitin
What you all said is very much right, if you have what you wanted in the first place then there is no point in thinking or huntingfor something better than what you already wanted. If so, then this is not going to end any where. On the other hand, I would like to avoid some big time blunders as well.
So just shared my results, to see if I am on right track or missing something big time.
Regards
Vivek
Totally agree with you Vivek. No point in spending a fortune on cables. Good quality cables at sane prices will effectively do the job.
This hobby can make you spend more than what is required on the basis of uncertainties in many cases as everything is subjective. A balance between happiness and spending has to be arrived at some stage, earlier the better.
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Deleted member 15865
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Vivek, thanks for taking my comments in the right sense.
That could happen with anybody. Did you try the mobile recording and listening through transparent headphones way of comparison? Another approach that helps is to keep the cable (or whatever other change one makes) for a long enough period (a day or two is good as also allows some elapsed period, but at least 7-8 songs) before changing to the other. To do that, you need to be ready to give enough time to get to a combination you’d like. Trying too many cables in a rush won’t allow it.
Quite possible. Not just the incomplete burn in, but also getting used to (developing an auditory imprint of) the sound of your system with stock cables. That’d take at least a few weeks post the burn in. Also, getting the placement and shelves right before experimenting with cables is a lesson I’ve learnt the hard way. Most people will recommend ICs and cables to you. When it comes to placement and room dynamics, you’d have to figure it out mostly yourself.
Gain is only one of the results. Look for openness, musicality, balance, tonality, ease from adding a particular cable in your particular system.
I’d actually be cautious when there’s a ‘wow’ factor. It’s quite likely to be a coloration that comes at some sonic cost. I’d rather look for what I continue to feel like listening to - and not stop - something that ‘moves’ me enough to get involved.
That could happen with anybody. Did you try the mobile recording and listening through transparent headphones way of comparison? Another approach that helps is to keep the cable (or whatever other change one makes) for a long enough period (a day or two is good as also allows some elapsed period, but at least 7-8 songs) before changing to the other. To do that, you need to be ready to give enough time to get to a combination you’d like. Trying too many cables in a rush won’t allow it.
Quite possible. Not just the incomplete burn in, but also getting used to (developing an auditory imprint of) the sound of your system with stock cables. That’d take at least a few weeks post the burn in. Also, getting the placement and shelves right before experimenting with cables is a lesson I’ve learnt the hard way. Most people will recommend ICs and cables to you. When it comes to placement and room dynamics, you’d have to figure it out mostly yourself.
Gain is only one of the results. Look for openness, musicality, balance, tonality, ease from adding a particular cable in your particular system.
I’d actually be cautious when there’s a ‘wow’ factor. It’s quite likely to be a coloration that comes at some sonic cost. I’d rather look for what I continue to feel like listening to - and not stop - something that ‘moves’ me enough to get involved.
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Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
Hi Vivek...I can hardly discern the difference between similar sounding cables. However, I have still spent a lot of time on cables, because the cable that sounds bad can destroy the sound totally. Between different cables that roughly match your system it will take very subtle listening, but eliminating a bad cable is quite easily done (and it may prove to be a good cable in some other system), and is a must. Looks like you did not encounter any such potholes so you should be OK I think.
This is a very pertinent factor which is not emphasized enough, even the cable believers concentrate on mentioning magical effects which the cable brings about, but forget to mention this. A bad cable (Read Not Synergistic to the components, or not matching) can ruin the whole fun of the system irrespective of the investment. This is one of the reasons the Time investment in the mix & match of cables becomes a necessity. Obviously there will be a scientific explanation to why certain cable works or doesn't, which a technically inclined individual could explain better.
With maximum 10% of difference, you will not get the Wow kind of difference which you observe with changing the Components. Don't bother a lot if you are unable to hear a difference, keep listening and keep an open mind. In my case, Lack of Correct Vocabulary to describe the difference was a hindrance in the earlier years of cable experimentation.
Gerry_the_Merry
Well-Known Member
I forgot to add...you will need to make sure that the ICs are run in (they become better), the contacts are clean and tight etc. Else the comparison may not be accurate enough.
Hi Vivek,
If the difference is subtle and our memory is not able to remember such minor difference, then why to change or try different cables.
For excellent sound that won't break the bank, the 5 Star Award Winning Wharfedale Diamond 12.1 Bookshelf Speakers is the one to consider!
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