reubensm
Well-Known Member
wow that looks nice.
Interestingly I have the same multimeter with me at work. I find the leads too thin
I got the TT today and was honored to meet Kuruvila sir too!
Does the TT have a stereo ceramic cart or a mono one?
Ceramic Phonostage Build
- Thread starter reubensm
- Start date
Does the TT have a stereo ceramic cart or a mono one?
MAYHEM_METAL
Member
Thats really neat. Awesome my friend. :clapping::clapping::clapping:
Full credit for taking this bold step forward. I have been searching on the net for a long time and could not find someone who actual gave the full detail of making a PreAmp for Ceramic Cartridge. You have also inspired me to follow your steps for my Ceramic Cartridge. You think its worth making a board then using a general board?
Definitely would like to give it a shot with better components.
Many Thanks :yahoo:
Full credit for taking this bold step forward. I have been searching on the net for a long time and could not find someone who actual gave the full detail of making a PreAmp for Ceramic Cartridge. You have also inspired me to follow your steps for my Ceramic Cartridge. You think its worth making a board then using a general board?
Definitely would like to give it a shot with better components.
Many Thanks :yahoo:
reubensm
Well-Known Member
on another note, there is a lot of debate (questions I've been asked regularly) related to:
1) is it worth the headache using a ceramic cart in the first place
2) quality of ceramic carts is poor, compared to magnetic carts
3) why such a simple phonostage with low cost components? will it kill the quality further?
here is my take:
1) why not? ceramic carts may not be great but one can still enjoy music using them. The myth that ceramic carts will damage your records is not true, but only if you are using a light weight counter balanced tonearm. If your expectations are not very high, then you can really enjoy the music with these carts. However a key point to note is that these days, ceramic carts may be more expensive than magnetic carts. A lot of clever jacks have bought up all the EEI cart stock (which never sold during the 1990s) from electronic spare parts shops and charge as high as 1k for a piece (used to cost Rs.30-Rs.50 back in the day). If you have a 78 rpm and 45 rpm pre-used collection, not a bad idea to use a ceramic cart. On another note, music played on small speakers (not bookshelf but little speakers in small boxes or the lid of the turntable) sound really sweet on ceramic carts.
2) it is unfair to compare a ceramic cart to a magnetic cart, there is simply no comparison. However from what I have experienced, the cheap magnetic carts found on plastic turntables (except the p-mount audio technica and shure carts) are junk and an EEI CS2000 can definitely sound better with decent equalization. If used with light weight tracking, the common sapphire stylus of ceramic carts can also last for a long long time. The myth that sapphire stylii wear off fast is true only for heavy-weight tracking tonearms.
3) this is highly debatable. Depends on what one intends to use the ceramic cart for. These days, most users have ceramic based turntables for 78rpm. Most 78s in the Indian market (especially the older ones) were once played on needle gramophones and have semi-drilled grooves. This results in very poor quality with a lot of background noise. Such is the source that one cannot really expect hi-fidelity sound, rather one would need to focus on listening to whatever one can hear of the content. Under such circumstances, it makes no sense spending 2k to make an expensive phonostage with imported components. There is simply no business case which guarantees a return on investment from a sound perspective. Also unlike magnetic carts, ceramic carts and high impedance, high output devices, so one does not really require amplification to be provided by the phonostage. The only real requirement is the RIAA equalization. Hence a simple single stage phonostage would suffice. The bottom line is that 78s were pressed before the days of RIAA equalization standards anyways and hence, there's bound to be variations anyways. The key is to focus on the content, not too much on the quality. Having said that, this phonostage is quite decent sounding, especially on the lows front. It also has hi-frequency roll-off factored which cuts out a bit of the surface noise and ticks/pops (marginally).
1) is it worth the headache using a ceramic cart in the first place
2) quality of ceramic carts is poor, compared to magnetic carts
3) why such a simple phonostage with low cost components? will it kill the quality further?
here is my take:
1) why not? ceramic carts may not be great but one can still enjoy music using them. The myth that ceramic carts will damage your records is not true, but only if you are using a light weight counter balanced tonearm. If your expectations are not very high, then you can really enjoy the music with these carts. However a key point to note is that these days, ceramic carts may be more expensive than magnetic carts. A lot of clever jacks have bought up all the EEI cart stock (which never sold during the 1990s) from electronic spare parts shops and charge as high as 1k for a piece (used to cost Rs.30-Rs.50 back in the day). If you have a 78 rpm and 45 rpm pre-used collection, not a bad idea to use a ceramic cart. On another note, music played on small speakers (not bookshelf but little speakers in small boxes or the lid of the turntable) sound really sweet on ceramic carts.
2) it is unfair to compare a ceramic cart to a magnetic cart, there is simply no comparison. However from what I have experienced, the cheap magnetic carts found on plastic turntables (except the p-mount audio technica and shure carts) are junk and an EEI CS2000 can definitely sound better with decent equalization. If used with light weight tracking, the common sapphire stylus of ceramic carts can also last for a long long time. The myth that sapphire stylii wear off fast is true only for heavy-weight tracking tonearms.
3) this is highly debatable. Depends on what one intends to use the ceramic cart for. These days, most users have ceramic based turntables for 78rpm. Most 78s in the Indian market (especially the older ones) were once played on needle gramophones and have semi-drilled grooves. This results in very poor quality with a lot of background noise. Such is the source that one cannot really expect hi-fidelity sound, rather one would need to focus on listening to whatever one can hear of the content. Under such circumstances, it makes no sense spending 2k to make an expensive phonostage with imported components. There is simply no business case which guarantees a return on investment from a sound perspective. Also unlike magnetic carts, ceramic carts and high impedance, high output devices, so one does not really require amplification to be provided by the phonostage. The only real requirement is the RIAA equalization. Hence a simple single stage phonostage would suffice. The bottom line is that 78s were pressed before the days of RIAA equalization standards anyways and hence, there's bound to be variations anyways. The key is to focus on the content, not too much on the quality. Having said that, this phonostage is quite decent sounding, especially on the lows front. It also has hi-frequency roll-off factored which cuts out a bit of the surface noise and ticks/pops (marginally).
reubensm
Well-Known Member
I used a bread board just to get a kick out of the build. Honestly, its like going back to my childhood days. If you have the time and facilities to do a proper PCB, then why not. This original circuit was infact mounted on a PCB (check my posts on the Garrard RC210 thread). You can use better quality resistors and capacitors and of course, low noise transistors. You can take your ceramic phonostage to the next level by adding a scratch filter and rumble filter
reubensm
Well-Known Member
On another note, I have not noticed any cross-talk between the channels. This is probably because I have kept the gain of the transistor stage, very low.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
wow that looks nice.
Interestingly I have the same multimeter with me at work. I find the leads too thin
I got the TT today and was honored to meet Kuruvila sir too!
Please don't care too much about the white ribbon wires that run all over the board. They won't effect the performance. Could have wired then under the board but left them on top to give the project a DIY flavour
hyeah:hildebrand
Active Member
I didn't ask him but I guess it is a stereo one. There are two audio jacks coming out of the turntable - one red and one white.
Love your answers to the three questions you asked. They put things in the right perspective.
The gear is only so much important in my opinion too. The source and the music is what matters. Ultimately, music is for enjoyment and one should focus on it.
Thanks for doing this project. It has been very informative and shall encourage many of us to do DIY. We need more people like you!
reubensm
Well-Known Member
I didn't ask him but I guess it is a stereo one. There are two audio jacks coming out of the turntable - one red and one white.
Love your answers to the three questions you asked. They put things in the right perspective.
The gear is only so much important in my opinion too. The source and the music is what matters. Ultimately, music is for enjoyment and one should focus on it.
Thanks for doing this project. It has been very informative and shall encourage many of us to do DIY. We need more people like you!
its got to be stereo then, that's great, this phonostage is a stereo one. If you want to use it with a mono cart, then just use 1 channel
hyeah:Love DIY but dont have any time whatsoever for these projects. There are quite a few of our FMs into ceramic carts and 78rpm records. Its not easy to find ready-made ceramic phonostages or even details of builds, so hope this project can throw a few more ideas into the mix.
One request from my side. When you have this phonostage all wired up and playing at your place, please post your comments/impressions on the performance and also let our local FMs audition it if they wish to.
MAYHEM_METAL
Member
here is my take:
1) is it worth the headache using a ceramic cart in the first place
Yes it is worth it when you love the Turntable so much that even after having 5 TT, I dont mind still buying more. I have to tell you guys totally 2 Technics mounted with ortofon cartridge concorde, one Technics under restoration, one Garrard 301 with SME 3012 (Spend 42000/- plus addtional shippment :sad: to restore the ARM with SME canada) and planning to buy the Shure M97xE for the same. Project 301 under restoration, had to discard Sansui liner tracking TT as IC was faulty and could not get one. Was close to buying the Technics 1210Mk2.
To add to all this is the Garrard 2025T changer. Cant compare with the above. But never the less its a GEM of a Changer and had to get it fully operation even though Ceramic cartridge. Its a pleasure to watch the changer work in full flow. WOW what a marvelous piece of technology. Now you see how much this means to me.
2) quality of ceramic carts is poor, compared to magnetic carts
Well I cant say that. I grew up admiring the TT and used to listen to loads of various Ceramic TT as a Kid and I dont remember them sounding bad. Ok the Magnetic is any day better but in the old day the Ceramic sounded nice from the memories I have. I guess they had good phono stage to match for the same.
So thats the reason I want to recreate the magic with a Ceramic Phono stage.hyeah:
1) is it worth the headache using a ceramic cart in the first place
Yes it is worth it when you love the Turntable so much that even after having 5 TT, I dont mind still buying more. I have to tell you guys totally 2 Technics mounted with ortofon cartridge concorde, one Technics under restoration, one Garrard 301 with SME 3012 (Spend 42000/- plus addtional shippment :sad: to restore the ARM with SME canada) and planning to buy the Shure M97xE for the same. Project 301 under restoration, had to discard Sansui liner tracking TT as IC was faulty and could not get one. Was close to buying the Technics 1210Mk2.
To add to all this is the Garrard 2025T changer. Cant compare with the above. But never the less its a GEM of a Changer and had to get it fully operation even though Ceramic cartridge. Its a pleasure to watch the changer work in full flow. WOW what a marvelous piece of technology. Now you see how much this means to me.
2) quality of ceramic carts is poor, compared to magnetic carts
Well I cant say that. I grew up admiring the TT and used to listen to loads of various Ceramic TT as a Kid and I dont remember them sounding bad. Ok the Magnetic is any day better but in the old day the Ceramic sounded nice from the memories I have. I guess they had good phono stage to match for the same.
So thats the reason I want to recreate the magic with a Ceramic Phono stage.
hyeah:hildebrand
Active Member
its got to be stereo then, that's great, this phonostage is a stereo one. If you want to use it with a mono cart, then just use 1 channel
Love DIY but dont have any time whatsoever for these projects. There are quite a few of our FMs into ceramic carts and 78rpm records. Its not easy to find ready-made ceramic phonostages or even details of builds, so hope this project can throw a few more ideas into the mix.
One request from my side. When you have this phonostage all wired up and playing at your place, please post your comments/impressions on the performance and also let our local FMs audition it if they wish to.
Yes, thats a given
Eagerly waiting for my whole setup to fall in place. Perhaps will happen within 8-10 days if I am lucky
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Can't agree more. I too grew up listening to the very same cart that I now have in my RC210 changer, the EEI CS2000, truly enjoyable. My father had a home built 4 stage ceramic phonostage which was quite advanced for its time. All that has passed with him, into the ages. If only he had a circuit diagram of that project, would have loved to recreate it. The good thing about ceramic carts are that they are not as critical as magnetic carts, predominantly because of the high gain output. I have heard an old radio which had nothing but a 0.1mfd capacitor and a 10 meg resistor across what was called the "Gram" socket and the sound in the radio's speaker was quite loud, clear and enjoyable when Dad used to connect his HMV Calypso to it.
I can relate to the joy you experience when you see your changer work. Your's is the more modern 2025T, you should check out the older classic Garrard changers from the 1950s. When they work, its a sight to behold. The RC210 was perhaps the best of the RC series of classic Garrard changers.
I can relate to the joy you experience when you see your changer work. Your's is the more modern 2025T, you should check out the older classic Garrard changers from the 1950s. When they work, its a sight to behold. The RC210 was perhaps the best of the RC series of classic Garrard changers.
here is my take:
1) is it worth the headache using a ceramic cart in the first place
Yes it is worth it when you love the Turntable so much that even after having 5 TT, I dont mind still buying more. I have to tell you guys totally 2 Technics mounted with ortofon cartridge concorde, one Technics under restoration, one Garrard 301 with SME 3012 (Spend 42000/- plus addtional shippment :sad: to restore the ARM with SME canada) and planning to buy the Shure M97xE for the same. Project 301 under restoration, had to discard Sansui liner tracking TT as IC was faulty and could not get one. Was close to buying the Technics 1210Mk2.
To add to all this is the Garrard 2025T changer. Cant compare with the above. But never the less its a GEM of a Changer and had to get it fully operation even though Ceramic cartridge. Its a pleasure to watch the changer work in full flow. WOW what a marvelous piece of technology. Now you see how much this means to me.
2) quality of ceramic carts is poor, compared to magnetic carts
Well I cant say that. I grew up admiring the TT and used to listen to loads of various Ceramic TT as a Kid and I dont remember them sounding bad. Ok the Magnetic is any day better but in the old day the Ceramic sounded nice from the memories I have. I guess they had good phono stage to match for the same.
So thats the reason I want to recreate the magic with a Ceramic Phono stage.
Last edited:
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Yes, that's true. Given the limitations of what we are setting out to do, the ceramic ones should be fine in this context. However they can be replaced with film or paper capacitors for better performance. I have not used ceramic capacitors for bias on this build due to this factor. However, on the one that I built for myself, I have used ceramic capacitors for the bias as well.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
No anticipated action yesterday as I got home very late from work. Will try today
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Wired up tonight (although reached late as usual), sounded like an exact replication of the earlier one which I built. A bit busy tomorrow and the day after and will ship on Saturday morning. Sorry for the delays. Photos to follow as well.
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Here's the long awaited pics, the ceramic phonostage which I built for the Garrard RC210, installed in its new home, soldered directly to the tonearm tag board. The tonearm wiring is soldered directly to keep the leads as short as possible. Ground wiring is also kept as short as possible. The output is wired to the RCAs on the rear of the cabinet.
Also spent some time building a simple PSU with components and a transformer from my scrap box. Got it together, 12 volts, 250ma
Also spent some time building a simple PSU with components and a transformer from my scrap box. Got it together, 12 volts, 250ma
reubensm
Well-Known Member
Ceramic phonostage trial run with PSU, noticed some hum, need to look at the filtering, later in the night, got to run to Loyola School for the Annual Day celebrations.
removed the Garrard label from above the headshell to slightly align the cart
removed the Garrard label from above the headshell to slightly align the cart
reubensm
Well-Known Member
PSU circuit, modified with additional filtering (using a 2-capacitor mini bank). Now the hum is almost non-existant. The transformer used is a very basic low-end one. Using a better quality transformer will definitely improve performance, leaps and bounds
Here's the schematic, please pardon the amateurish drawing:
Here's the schematic, please pardon the amateurish drawing:
reubensm
Well-Known Member
So, on another note, fm hildebrand's ceramic phonostage is now fully tested and ready for dispatch. Increased the gain on the preamp a bit given the fact that he's planning to use Norge. No effect on performance though. Did about 20 hours of listening on ceramic, will get better as the hours progress. Packed up the phonostage very well with bubble wrap and locked it up in an old fast food container. Now its ready for dispatch by tomorrow morning's courier. A whole week later than I intended to ship out, had a very very busy week at work with travel coming up. Here are the pics of the package:
reubensm
Well-Known Member
PSU circuit, modified with additional filtering (using a 2-capacitor mini bank). Now the hum is almost non-existant. The transformer used is a very basic low-end one. Using a better quality transformer will definitely improve performance, leaps and bounds
Here's the schematic, please pardon the amateurish drawing:
Did some massive test runs with this powersupply. Output has dropped from 12volts to 8.83 volts after the addition of the 2.2k resistor and 3500mfd cap but performance is superb, there is very slight (extremely slight and not very noticeable) hum if the amplifier volume is turned to full position (without music playing) but one cannot expect better performance with a low cost transformer. The capacitor bank of 3500mfd, 1500mfd and 220mfd are functioning quite well, there is amazing voltage retention wherein the ceramic phonostage continues to sing for nearly a whole minute if the preamp's power is turned off while playing. I would guess that the preamp's current consumption is only a few MA. Now, the next step would be to get the plinth varnished (final coat), and wire up the PSU inside the plinth. That would complete this project.
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