DAC around INR 100k

[ranjeetrain]

No problem with the discussion diverting into other areas

The discussion is still around the source, and honestly speaking its enriching to hear different view points. It gives a new perspective to the discussion.

I have been away due to the time I am needing to spend elsewhere. Otherwise I'd have definitely contributed much more to this discussion.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Hi Prem,

I have very limited exposure to super high end sources. This is an interesting area that I would like to discover at an appropriate time. But whatever limited opportunity I have got (mostly with mid-fi sources in mid-fi set ups), I have experienced ROI is very low on sources. Highest ROI was with speakers, followed by amplification.

With respect to your observation of mechanical and electrical noise, theoretically, your observations/explanation make a lot of sense to me. However, like Thad, Sat, Malvai have pointed out, those difference are not easy to voice until the rest of the chain was equally high end and everything else in the set up was done to that level of sophistication. But many FMs seem to ignore that part. The main difference in the opinions being voiced here is that a significant investment on source can improve a system considerably, even in a otherwise average system. I strongly disagree with that notion.

Here I find myself guilty of one thing. By source here (being an all digital guy) I always mean a DAC. However, you as well as many other people mean CDP when they say (digital) source. This is a BIG difference. No wonder, my observations with respect to "Source" and some other FMs' are vastly different.

I, personally, completely agree with the difference mechanical and electrical noise can make to a system. However, like Thad pointed out, these days "technology trickle down" from high end systems into low end systems has done such wonders that today's mid-level gear are vastly out-performing 2-3 decade old absolutely high-end gear. This is specifically true about DACs. I have many personal experiences that I can list, but that would make the post unbearably long to read.

In my definition of "source", there is a solid state "storage medium" that holds my music library and acts as a "transport". So, there are no moving parts and the problem of mechanical noise is 99.95% taken care of. Rest of the mechanical noise can be taken care of by a good non-vibrating, well-ventilated rack.

In my definition of "source", there is a DAC for the conversion duties, so again there is no mechanical noise so to speak of. That leaves us with the electrical noise part.

Getting rid of electrical noise is a critical step in any setup except entry level. I consider myself extremely lucky that the power situation at my apartment is superb (both in India and China {compared to horror stories I keep reading about on this forum}). At my apartment, when i lastly checked (a few years ago) there was absolutely ZERO electrical noise/disturbance/interference despite I wasn't using any specialized power conditioning/filtering. I haven't done this test in last couple years to see of the power in still as clean in my apartment.

That is not to say I will ignore the need of pure power going into high end components. But the point that this illustrates is -- I was unable to hear any noise/hiss/hum in modest setup of around USD 5k. If in an entry level setup like those, with all components fully connected, volume control maxed out on the amp, post midnight (when the tick of the clock can be heard clearly from across the room) I was unable to hear any hiss/hum/buzz. My conclusion? In an ideal condition (where your mains line is not contaminated), it is very hard to fault even mid-level gear for (external) electrical noise.

With respect to the internal noise generated by various components, that's a different ball-game. At those levels, only point-to-point wired, 100% hand-assembled, boutiques gear would do. This is the age of integrated chips. Most mass-market companies use off-the-shelf ICs to build their components. Most mass-market companies don't have technical know-how to replace those ICs with point-to-point wired electrical components. And those who do, are not in mass-market products. That's where sophistication comes and that's where products start becoming order of the magnitude more expensive.

I have always maintained, more money definitely buys "better" components. Now that "better" may not be "better" in all setups. A specific type of setup will benefit from those products. And that's the essence of high-end audio; catering to the needs of discerning audiophiles, with the exact components they need, tailor made to suit their need. Needless to say, building those specialized components at low sales volume has a price. And that's where components in access of USD 20k each come into picture.

But, if we were to speak about mass-market "finance restricted systems" (vs cost-no-object systems), we will have to set a ceiling where point of diminishing returns kicks in. And in my experience, that point in DAC is USD 2K. Most DACs in USD 2K range get so many things right, that beyond that it is matter of specialization, not getting the sound right.

If in any "finance-restricted' system, a USD 2K DAC doesn't sound right, then the problem is elsewhere in the chain. Because most popular DACs in USD 2K range will give you 90-95% of any cost-no-object DAC at any price point.

 

[jai1611]

^^^
guys i was only referring to the conversation just drifting into a "Room Correction" debate. kindly keep up with the examples etc...

And yes, the $10k plus DAC's of yesterday are quite easily (if not beaten) bruised by even $1500 DAC's of today.

Personally I feel, that the sonic improvements that one gets above the $1500 price point are minuscule. I personally have not been able to justify spending anything beyond this price for my DAC.

Another really huge factor that stops me spending more than this is the fact that most digital tech changes dramatically every 2 years. Rendering the DAC of today quite out of date.

I am not sure new tech = better sound

I recently compared a 10+ year old Assemblage 2.7 with a new gen dac (which I won't name here as it doesn't belong to me). The digital filter and dac chip in the assemblage are long obsolete and now out of production. The other dac uses the sabre, a new gen chip with all the bells and whistles.

To me the new dac was pretty much unlistenable in a back to back comparison with the Assemblage. I sounded unnatural and forced. And this is a very well reviewed $1kish dac against something that doesn't even do 24/192!

 

[prem]

Hi ranjeetrain

No way will a $2 k dac gives 90-95% performance of a cost no object dac. Consider Benchmark DAC at $2000. The Esoteric top of the line dac murders it. Absolutely no comparison. Someone like Lata is unlistenable on Benchmark. On Esoteric she sounds gorgeous. I agree everything else in the chain has to be upto Esoteric standards.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Hi Prem,

I surely need to experience the Esoteric level of components in order to understand that.

Hearing is believing. My comments are based on experiences I have had so far. But I am always willing to learn.

 

[SatMumbai]

Hi ranjeetrain

No way will a $2 k dac gives 90-95% performance of a cost no object dac. Consider Benchmark DAC at $2000. The Esoteric top of the line dac murders it. Absolutely no comparison. Someone like Lata is unlistenable on Benchmark. On Esoteric she sounds gorgeous. I agree everything else in the chain has to be upto Esoteric standards.

I am so eager to know your impressions on my (yet to be received) Oppo 105

 

[arj]

I am not sure new tech = better sound

I recently compared a 10+ year old Assemblage 2.7 with a new gen dac (which I won't name here as it doesn't belong to me). The digital filter and dac chip in the assemblage are long obsolete and now out of production. The other dac uses the sabre, a new gen chip with all the bells and whistles.

To me the new dac was pretty much unlistenable in a back to back comparison with the Assemblage. I sounded unnatural and forced. And this is a very well reviewed $1kish dac against something that doesn't even do 24/192!

Agree 100 %
Some of the older designs may not have the details but sound a lot more organic. But I don't meant to generalize here..there are some pretty good new designs which are supposedly good as well.

The older audio notes still have a magic about them. And I've heard an assemblage modded by a forum member as well which was simply outstanding even compared to my reimyo.

There are some good new ones as well although not heard them the metrum, burson, Yamamoto , AMR etc seem to have some magic still in them




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[ranjeetrain]

This discussion about legacy DACs sounding better than modern DACs brings me to this question.

Sometime ago I had seen a Goldmund DAC on sale. Not sure if it's still there but doesn't hurt to know this anyway. Has anyone heard a Goldmund 21+ DAC? Is it worth buying it today? What other DACs can it be compared to, from the past and present?

 

[prem]

Hi Ranjeetrain

The problem with the older dacs are they do not have a USB connection. Hence they may not serve your purpose.

 

[corElement]

Hmm, what about a powered dac like the nad m2 ranjeetrain?

- Correction, forgot about the accuphase. Nevermind me.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Hi Ranjeetrain

The problem with the older dacs are they do not have a USB connection. Hence they may not serve your purpose.

Hi Prem,

I know older machines would only have older type of connections. I am looking for subjective opinion on the sound from the machine.

Any and every input is helpful.


@cor

That was an expensive machine. Not to mention, AP DAC sounded better to my ears. May be due to the chip it uses, which is inherently more organic sounding.

 

[prem]

Hi Ranjeetrain


The older machines like EAD 9000 PRO DAC and the old Wadia 9 DAC are extremely musical. They may not be the last word in detail but get the essence of music right. These are 2 dacs i have heard and come to my mind.

 

[pt121pt]

Sorry, I should have been more clear Here are the two mandatory interfaces I need.

(1) USB - This should be in Client mode. Transmission can be synchronous or asynchronous. Though I prefer that the DAC control the transmission. This will allow me to hook any computing device (at least theoretically) to the DAC. I prefer it to have a 24/96 bandwidth.

(2) Digital in - These should accept PCM data. I prefer that it has Coaxial and TOSLink ports. I wish these can take upto 32/192 data.

Here is my wish list for extras:

(3) RJ45 - This is truely a wishful thinking. I don't think any serious DAC will have it, but I wish, that, the DAC have a RJ45 port, allowing me to hook it directly to my NAS. In that case the DAC would also act as a network client over any of the popular protocols.

(4) Analogue in - Basically I am asking it to be a preamp as well. If this were the case, I will eliminate the preamp from the equation completely. I love equipments but hate wires.

(5) I didn't mention this earlier, but now I come to think of it and I wish it to also be remotely controllable (which in all probabilities it will, if it fulfills the above criteria #4). Something like a capable Wadia machine, you know what I mean. Prism is too much of Pro like. But then, I am keeping my mind open to everything at this moment.

Did you look at the P S Audio PWD ? that can act as a digital pre amp/ DAC/ and control a NAS as well. Has great reviews (especially with the PWT transport) and is regarded hi end .

 

[ranjeetrain]

Did you look at the P S Audio PWD ? that can act as a digital pre amp/ DAC/ and control a NAS as well. Has great reviews (especially with the PWT transport) and is regarded hi end .

Yup, I did consider it. Unfortunately the prices didn't interest me.

The problem with pro reviews is that the reviewers get too taken by the prices of equipment. There are very few reviewers that can review an equipment without knowing its price and declare it's usefulness at a price they feel appropriate. I am saying this because with reviews of products like these there is a big chance of reviewer getting influenced by the price.

I regard PS Audio as a good name, and I will buy their low end (eg Digilink III) DACs any day of the week. But I just don't feel comfortable with their high end gear. If I can have an opportunity to listen to their high end products that may change my view. But as of now they are not in my shortlist.

Here is some update: I am also looking at CDPs now. I know I didn't wish for a complete CDP in the beginning. I just wanted a DAC. But I am unable to get any good value for money option around estimated 2 lacs.

What is the opinion on Esoteric X03 and Playback Design MPD-5/MPS-5? How do they compare? Anyone heard them both? Any word on their characteristics?

 

[malvai]

Hey Ranjeet! Good to see you back... I guess you are all settled in now!

Sorry, couldn't reply to your sms the other day!

BTW, the PD MPD-5 is a good option. very good. if you get it in your budget GO FOR IT!

 

[prem]

Hi ranjeetrain

If you are looking at Esoteric X03, get the X03 SE. Its no longer manufactured. Its the sweet spot in the Esoteric line. I had one for a short period of time. You should get a used one for less than $5000.

However, Esoteric is very detailed. It may not be everyones cup of tea.

The MPD 5 is great but way more expensive. MPD 5 also uses an Esoteric transport. For both these machines you are paying a huge price for the transport and hence are worth looking at only if you are into cds. For computer playback, you only need a DAC.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Hey bro, thanks! Not fully back yet, still need to catch up with some sleep

It's defo beyond the budget. But the way it is hard to sell high-end gear in India (and mostly because I don't have much opportunity to execute a sale) I would prefer not to get into a buy-sell-buy-sell cycle. Why lose money on upgrades when it is certain upgrades would happen?

I know I might just end up burning a big hole in my pocket, but at least I will be able to listen to the system for a short while without thinking of upgrades :lol:

Esoteric has a tremendous following and reputation. I haven't heard one person not being impressed with an Esoteric. Esoteric X-03 represents a sweet-spot for me. I can't afford their higher end and lower end may not be much better than the run-of-the-mill stuff. So it seems like X-03 can do it for me. The biggest problem with the X-03 is that it's just a CDP (okay, it's also an SACDP, but that hardly makes a difference to me which won't accept digital inputs anyway). But if one were to make a blind purchase, at least an Esoteric will be a safe-blind-buy.

Thought about MPS-5 came to my mind from the other thread where people are praising it very highly. That made me curious about it. MPS-5 is everything MPD-5 is plus a modified Esoteric transport. So, MPS-5 will not only meet my purpose but even exceed it, because it can double as a DAC. So it seems like a great options. Downside is that these equipments will burn a much bigger hole in my pocket than I planned for.

 

[prem]

Hi Ranjeetrain

If you want digital inputs go for Esoteric K03.

 

[ranjeetrain]

Hi Prem,

We cross-posted. And how lucky! Your and my thoughts are quite similar on Esoteric. As in I thought the same about X-03 wrt to it being a sweet spot in Esoteric Line up etc.

Again, ditto about Playback. It's way expensive, but it covers me in the sense that, I can officially get off the upgrade wagon after getting it. It will be everything my ears would be able to resolve so besides a change in the tonal balance I wouldn't need anything. And the best way to change tonal balance is to change the speakers (at least in my books), so seems like I'll be covered on that.

Downside is that Playback CDP/DAC doesn't do DSD. Esoteric does, but after down-sampling to 88.2. Hope I am not missing anything here.

I am gonna look up the K-03. I was of the opinion that K-03 isn't in the same league (or technical equiv of X-03). But worth checking out, thanks!

 

[prem]

The point Ranjeetrain is what will be your software? Will it be cds or computer playback? If you have the budget for Playback Designs, you should also look at NeoDio, a french cd player.

For about $5000 used for a cd player, Esoteric X03SE is very difficult to beat. But again if its computer playback, i would rather put $5000 on a dac.