DAC around INR 100k

[ranjeetrain]

I only found Item Audio this week. Looks like they have quite an amazing product range.

The offer is 25% off, which is, I guess, respectable. If I had a lakh to spend, I think I'd buy it on the Antelope reputation, even though I only heard of them in the past year or so.

I have been following Antelope for last 2 years or so. Earlier I thought they were also more froth than beer. But they have earned a couple of good reviews of late. That must be because they sound good. Srajan Ebaen actually rated it pretty high, almost up there with Weiss DAC 2, which says a lot by itself.

You can get the basic version of that DAC for around a lac. If you are keen I'll pm you the details. Basic version is not much crippled but it doesn't sport all the bells and whistles of the Plus or the Gold.

 

[prem]

Antelope Audio is known for their clocks. They are pretty much the best in the business. The DAC is an offshoot of their understanding of clocks

 

[ranjeetrain]

True that. Last I heard they are the only audio manufacturer to actually use an atomic clock in an audio equipment

No idea just how far this is gonna go :indifferent14:

 

[prem]

Hi ranjeetrain

Esoteric also makes an atomic clock.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Remember that UK prices for non-UK brands are usually quite high. Eg. the Audiophilleo USB SPDIF converter, which is US$550 in the US, is 529 at Item Audio.

Oh, yes... I've been away long enough to have forgotten about the $1=1 exchange rate imposed on UK consumers. India is not the only place to suffer from manufacturer/distributor differential pricing

Antelope Audio is known for their clocks. They are pretty much the best in the business. The DAC is an offshoot of their understanding of clocks

You can get the basic version of that DAC for around a lac. If you are keen I'll pm you the details. Basic version is not much crippled but it doesn't sport all the bells and whistles of the Plus or the Gold.

Actually, I'd rather have a Prism Lyra if I was seriously spending money like that. But I've always been a sucker for a discount. But then, sometimes the discount turns out to be not as good as it looked so it's a good thing I didn't splash out with the savings.

I did glance over the other models, up and down the range. The thing that shocked me though, was the six-hundred-pound power suuply :sad:

 

[square_wave]

I did glance over the other models, up and down the range. The thing that shocked me though, was the six-hundred-pound power suuply :sad:

The questions is whether it is worth it. I know folks who use thousand pound power cords with their dacs.

A lot of these things are priced after studying what performance these thingys offer compared to what else is available in the market at similar price points. The pricing is not based on what goes inside the device.

If the market is buying it, then there is something to it. Perceived or real! Otherwise it will not sell.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

The questions is whether it is worth it.

I generally think that it isn't.

If the market is buying it, then there is something to it. Perceived or real! Otherwise it will not sell.

The market buys the stuff that is marketed, and this is true in all walks of life, even non-commercial. In the areas of our own enthusiasm it is supper hard to separate the marketing from the facts. We can only try!

This is one reason why, in this DAC/ADC area, I prefer to look at the pro/semi-pro gear, because its buyers might be less influenced by marketing wow. They have budgets that they have to justify, and they have listening experience of a different kind to the rest of us --- as per the saying that the audiophile hears the same difference as the sound engineer does, but the sound engineer knows what the difference is; he can even put numbers to it.

Anyway, sadly, my big-item-spend focus has now changed. Due to muscle and joint pains, it has shifted from hifi to ...a new chair :sad:

 

[square_wave]

generally think that it isn't

Cant say because depending on the overall design, SOME dacs can sound better with outboard power supplies. There is definitely a case for it.

The market buys the stuff that is marketed, and this is true in all walks of life, even non-commercial. In the areas of our own enthusiasm it is supper hard to separate the marketing from the facts. We can only try!

Correct no arguments. But unless I have heard two versions of this DAC ( with and without outboard supplies) in a very revealing system, I would keep my mouth shut.

Anyway, sadly, my big-item-spend focus has now changed. Due to muscle and joint pains, it has shifted from hifi to ...a new chair

Yes priorities first hope your health is holding up

 

[Staxxx]

Due to muscle and joint pains, it has shifted from hifi to ...a new chair :sad:

Haha! Funny you should mention that .... I have been thinking it would be fun to have a thread with photographs of people's audio chairs For real.....

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Cant say because depending on the overall design, SOME dacs can sound better with outboard power supplies. There is definitely a case for it.

You are quite right. I was still reeling with the shock but later. I thought, if the components of that power supply were included in the main unit, and the price increased by 600 accordingly, then I wouldn't even notice that. And hey, I have the option to buy an external power supply for my own Cyrus amp, and they are not cheap either.

So... peace to power supplies hyeah:

Yes priorities first hope your health is holding up

Sore, but ok, thanks. Doc says I might be fine after a week of physio.

I have been thinking it would be fun to have a thread with photographs of people's audio chairs For real.....

Well, mine is just an office chair. In fact it was thrown out of the office at the same time as I was (a risk of becoming part of the furniture maybe) so I have been sitting in it since about 1992!

Back to DACs...

 

[thevortex]

Agree with your line of thought, Thad! Hope your body aches go away soon!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

... after ten days, including a course of physio, and having just started a course of ayurvedic, the pains are getting less. No new chair yet, but I intend to make that decision on Thursday and might soon be literally "sitting on one lakh!"

It's funny how spending money puts one in the mood to ...spend money.

System-wise, based on the PC, I have set myself the ambition of,

--- a high[er]-quality DAC/Headphone amplifier.

--- a high[er]-quality pair of headphones.

--- a high[er]-quality pair of nearfield monitors.

I am posting this here, because it is partly this thread that has sent me off on the browsing sessions that have formed my current aim. The purchasing may not even start for a year (the chair has to be paid for) and are unlikely to be completed before three years. All the following is based on reading and reviews, but...

DAC/Headphone-amp: (yes, I need the two combined and, really, I want a line out too) --- Burson Conductor (hifi-ish favourite); Grace M903 (pro-ish favourite); Fostex (wondering).

Headphones: Somehow, I can't seem to stop reading about Audeze wherever I go. And what I read I like. Probably have to be content with the $1,000 pair, not the $2,000 ones!

Monitors: Genelec... Adam... This is a long way ahead. Might even stop at the best headphone-based system I can manage to put together.

I feel that, with a great source, my Audio Technica AD900s are going to do nicely until I can make that next heady step*. After all, I'm happy listening to them right now!

First thing along the way is the DAC/Amp. This thread has been a part of that




*heady step! ha ha. Ha!

 

[square_wave]

The Burson Conductor ! The rest of the setup - not sure

 

[ranjeetrain]

Sorry to know about your health, Thad! I am glad you are coming back together fast and am sure you will be 100% fit in no time.

It's very right on your part to prioritize health ahead of HiFi. I myself feel guilty of giving HiFi too much importance in life. So much so that it becomes a priority to check progress on deals I am targeting. Way too much time to invest for what is supposed to be a hobby.

I used to be a fitness freak ever since a Yoga Guru came to our school for an Yoga camp. I practiced Yoga regularly till late 20s. Then the priorities in life changed and Yoga took a back seat. Now I feel so bad about my health, my level of fitness is nowhere close to it used to be. At that time I could run half a marathon on two days notice and a quarter marathon on no notice. Now even jogging is difficult to feel motivated about.

Its unfortunate that we are not a health-first society. And considering that its in our country that Yoga, Martial arts and Ayurveda were born. How far we have become from our roots.

I would strongly recommend you to firstly go ahead with portable audio rig. The joy of a portable audio rig is second to none. It takes a lot more money to get to a certain level in conventional setup than in portable audio. Audeze would be a good choice.

I am myself thinking of going one up from HD 650, but have been holding back looking at the pile of headphones I have lying with me that I used to enjoy immensely but can't stand them anymore. Same about my music collection. More and more high end gear is reducing the size of my "listenable" library and is forcing me into acquiring new music of technically higher quality. One thing I have thought about is -- to move sideways. Such as get myself a Denon ADH-7000 or something, rather than an even more revealing and transparent set of cans. Lets see. Like you, I will take it slow as well. No stray expenses. I have been buying a lot more than selling and have ended up with tons of stuff I am not using. Better to take it slowly.

 

[captrajesh]

after ten days, including a course of physio, and having just started a course of ayurvedic, the pains are getting less.

Sorry to know about your health, Thad! I am glad you are coming back together fast and am sure you will be 100% fit in no time.

OMG Thad, news to me

+1 to Ranjeetrain's post.:thumbsup: Get well soon.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

OMG Thad, news to me

The first twinge was when I reached up to pull down the car hatch after unpacking it, the day we last met. Took about a week to escalate from there.

Thanks for the concern, gentlemen. Whilst x-rays show some arthritis, I'm thinking that this bad month has been an acute thing, not something chronic. Hey, I'm 60 --- and I never did any yoga like ranjeetrain.... and capt: ex-army? Must have been some fitness stuff included, even if the post was a desk job (you certainly look pretty fit) and ...even my wife is doing yoga. Except for the years I was spending time in boats, I've had an entirely sedentary life, with as much interest in exercise as mathematics! Frankly, if I could live again, it would be my hearing I'd take more care of next time! Unfortunately wife will not move to Kerala, or I would paddle every day: Boats is the only form of exercise I have ever enjoyed!

The Burson Conductor !

No shortage of popularity for this one. I only heard of Burson within the past few weeks, and I find that, nobody told me ...but the world loves them! One has to make one's own choices, but knowing something might be quickly snapped up if one wants to change is always good. I think Audeze would be a safe investment too

The rest of the setup - not sure

This is a long-term project. Things may have changed by the time I make even the first purchase. In fact, you might even call it a dream ... except I'm researching things which could, at least, be attainable. No point in "Hey, I want Stax!" Because I just will never spend that much on a hifi component.

I would strongly recommend you to firstly go ahead with portable audio rig. The joy of a portable audio rig is second to none. It takes a lot more money to get to a certain level in conventional setup than in portable audio. Audeze would be a good choice.

I'd say that desk-based is more the word than portable. Never going to take any of that stuff on a train :lol: --- but it is shiftable across the room to the hifi, or even around the house with the squeezebox. Remember the first "portable" PCs? "Lugable" we called them. But, with reducing "earsight" I believe this is the way that I can feed the most amount of music into my brain. Unfortunately, the hearing is not reducing in such a way that I can put up with poor quality sound. In fact, I think I get fussier!

If I had the money now (I do, but I'm buying a chair ), I'd just buy a Burson. I doubt that I'd dislike it: in fact I think I'd love it. I'd probably be happy with a Grace too. But headphones is a different matter, because they have to be a physical fit as well as an audio fit. The one thing I've read about the Audeze that I may not like is half a kilo weight! Apart from getting a little warm inside them, I can actually forget I'm wearing my ATs.

So... I began reading this thread, 1-Lakh-DAC, for interest only but now, include a headphone amp --- and I'm thinking of buying one hyeah:

 

[square_wave]

While looking at active speakers, stay clear of the usual commercial hifi ones. Try and get some really nice one from the pro audio world. A friend whose ears I trust was talking very nicely about the adam audio active speakers. Not sure of the exact model though.

You may also like a small tube power amp attached to the burson pre/dac connected to this speaker if you like to be slightly on the dreamy side of things for a change.

Coincident Speaker Technology Total Victory

 

[esanthosh]

I too have similar needs as Thad (including the priority for a comfortable chair). Though I've followed this thread all along, I wasn't comfortable writing due to my lack of knowledge about high end DACs. Please feel free to ignore my incoherent blabber of a post and carry on the discussion.

Since the topic of portable / transportable / desktop / studio monitors has been brought up, I thought I will finally write something. I think I know where to go, but too many paths to take, which is too much for a simpleton like me to think about. May be instead of just thinking, if I write this down here, I might get some clarity.

I am mostly into portable audio (IEMs) than desktop (headphones) or speakers. Due to certain conditions at home, I am unable to use IEMs for the past 4-5 months. I wanted a speaker rig, but nothing complicated or too costly. I am thinking seriously about Adam Audio A7X as of now.

Here's my current thought process:

1) Get Anedio D2 as DAC and Headphone Amp. The advantage is that people on head-fi who have similar preferences to mine have tried / used this DAC and have good things to say about it. So at the very least, I am sure it won't stray too far from my signature preferences. It has a decent to good headphone amp section which can be used with IEMs and headphones alike. I could possibly use XLR out to feed Adam Audio A7X as well. The disadvantage is that it is a family run small company and they are unable to keep up with orders. So, the availability and cost of importing is an issue.

2) I thought of NAD M51 as an alternative since it has good reviews, but probably can be bought locally. I was quoted 1.26L for it, which is a tad above my budget. The advantage over D2 is that this has more inputs and has a built-in pre-amp. From what I've read, using M51 as DAC + Pre-amp seems like the best way to go. The drawback is I'd need a separate headphone amp. I already have Burson HA-160, but it goes better with headphones than IEMs. I am still thinking about this...

3) Also considered Antelope Zodiac. But, the headphone out has a output impedance of 120 ohm, which makes it a terrible partner for IEMs which have weird impedance graphs. The Gold version has an option to switch between 0 ohm and 120 ohm OI and it ticks a few more boxes right, but I'm afraid it's beyond my budget.

Side Note to Thad:

Stax has an Indian distributor, actually their Dubai based distributor with an office in Mumbai. I was thinking of picking their "IEM" combo, SRS-005 MK2 rig (SR-003 MK2 + SRM-252S). I was thinking that at a fraction of the cost of the 'dream' SR-009 + BHSE / Cavalli LL rig, this may offer an introduction to electrostatic sound and Stax tuning. It is also 'open' and not isolating, which fits my current needs. The portable SR-002 rig should cost less, but that portable amp seems to have issues and likely holding back the ear speakers. So, you can buy a Stax without breaking the bank, just need to live with poor build quality and terrible discomfort fitting that thing in the ear

On Transport:

After thinking about this, I also thought about the transport feeding it, which is currently my PC (STX via Coax, USB and Optical from Motherboard). I can't say I am immensely satisfied with it. This is where it gets too confusing for me.

I can take the Mac Mini (Amarra / Pure Play) route as Mac OS X natively supports USB Audio 2.0, the device consumes less power and occupies less space. But, the trouble is some portable players (like Cowon) are allergic to Mac OS X's habit of writing extra files, which bricks them. I would probably still need to use a PC for connecting portable players just to be safe.

If I kept the PC, I could side-grade / upgrade the sound card to something like ESI Juli@ XTe / EMU / Lynx cards. I also thought of trying out SoTM USB PCI-E Card. Another alternative to SoTM would be using something like a Stello U3 with i-Fi iUSBPower. Reading up a bit on them to understand.

Yet another option for transport would be shunning the PC and going for dedicated Network players, whose list is very long (some of them covered here). I have not researched enough about the devices.

Finally...

After thoroughly confusing myself reading about a plethora of options over the past few days, I have come around to the view that an all in one device like Resonessence Invicta may not be a bad idea at all, even if it is costly.

Hope I have not derailed anybody's interest in this thread further

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

While looking at active speakers, stay clear of the usual commercial hifi ones. Try and get some really nice one from the pro audio world.

That is my exact intention

Previously I would have done the same with the audio interface. Prism Lyra is not completely impossible, Grace is very possible. I've never thought hifi for the PC previously, before getting charmed by Burson. I guess that my Audiofire2 will remain as my recording interface on the few occasions that I do that, eg vinyl digitisation.

With all these boxes, there is the ever-present question: will it work with Linux? "Class-compliant" devices should, but something like the Lyra is greatly reduced in its functionality because of not being able to run the control software. Maximum sample rates may be limited too, but that is not a great concern to me: I don't have hi-res ears, and most of my music is just 44.1 stuff anyway. I currently run my interface at 44.1 by default as I prefer not to have an extra re-sampling process in the chain. One of those "audiophile things" --- just theoretical, but hey :lol:!

I fell in further in love with the idea of Audeze, last night, after extensive on-line review reading. The only trouble is the weight... I'm sure that could work in a recliner with the head back, but perhaps not so well in the desk chair.

<edit: crossposted with esantosh>

Thanks for the note re Stax. I'd rather keep IEMs for travel. I've never had a pair that didn't slowly fall out (obviously, no, never had a custom set made) so there is a limit to how they work for me. Actually still using a pair of Sony buds that I have had for ten years!

If you already have the HA160, what is lacking with that? Just greater comfortability with IEMs rather than headphones? In my recent browsing, I recall a FAQ on one site, something like:

Q: Why do I have to turn the volume control up so far before I hear anything at all in the headphones?
A: because the unit will give good control with IEMs that require only a small amount of power. You can set the power-up volume.​

I think that was for the Grace M903. It's a functionality that could suit you well. Small things like that can really matter, day-to-day.

Transport is going to be my PC. I spend the day sitting in front of it anyway. Not spending any more money on that unless or until smoke comes out of it!

And... it is going to remain Linux from now on. No more Microsoft, No Apple (never had any, not starting now), for me!

You could begin by adding the speakers you mention to your existing Burson...

 

[esanthosh]

If you already have the HA160, what is lacking with that? Just greater comfortability with IEMs rather than headphones?

Burson HA-160 uses a stepped attenuator, which does not offer finer control which is required in the case of some IEMs. Volume may turn out to be lower or higher than required. This is not a major issue with the headphones I use.

Conductor has the same issue as well based on headfonia's review

The only problem I have with the Conductor is when I tried to use the ultra-low sensitivity JH5Pro IEM. Though the stepped attenuator volume control was precise and free from any imbalance, I only get 4 clicks from zero level (where I still get small sound leaks) to my comfortable listening level, even at low gain.

Secondly, Burson has an output impedance of 5.6 ohms. Some of the IEMs perform well with only lower OI amps like UHA-6S.

I think that was for the Grace M903. It's a functionality that could suit you well. Small things like that can really matter, day-to-day.

That is why something like a Anedio D2 still interests me. D2 has an OI of 0.035 ohms and a finer volume control (goes to 99) which can be used with both IEMs and headphones. Replacing two boxes (DacMini CX, Burson HA-160) with a single box should simplify the setup. Currently, I can either drive the speakers OR Burson via DacMini CX's (RCA) line out, but not both. Of course, on the other hand, D2 would output simultaneously to both XLR as well as headphone out, which is not desirable either.

I will read up on M903 and see if it would fit me better.

This is interesting as well: Hilo Reference A/D D/A Converter System