Do all amps sound (nearly) the same?

[superczar]

I may be wrong here but I am assuming you were using the preamp of the AVR while doing the comparison. If that is the case, that would be your bottleneck.

As quoted before

Source for all the tests was a M-audio DAC hooked to a MacBook Pro playing a 24/192 version of The National’s About Today

The methodology of the original test is seriously flawed. That's because auditory memory is extremely short - barely a few seconds. It would be possible to use the same methodology to conclude that all CDPs sound sinilar, all speakers sound similar, so also cables, and we might all go home and listen to music on our phones.

The only way (though flawed too) to arrive at statistically significant results is with a test group and an A-B-X comparator double blind methodology, carried out over a period of time, with levels perfectly matched. This was the method used by Stereo Review magazine in their infamous 1981 issue (it can be googled) that concluded that ' for this test group, and for this set of conditions, all the amplifiers (8 models from a receiver to an OTL behemoth) sound alike.

Of course, that set the cat among the pigeons, with the audiophile media quick to debunk the test methodology. Among the criticisms were issues related to psycho- acoustics, and the way any 'test' brings in its own issues of stress in the participants, with corresponding results. It was also pointed out that music, like other sensory arts, is not a yes/no situation. It is enjoyed and appreciated differently depending on one's mood, the time of day, whether in company or not, and also based on one's indepth knowledge of the piece in question, AND also the provenance of the playback equipment. Double blind tests only show statistically significant results that have no reference to whether or not the test group had participants that had musical background, or even musical interesots, let alone 'golden ears'.

Among the debunkers of DBT have been people like Art Dudley, Michael Fremer and John Atkinson ( of Stereophile) who have participated in such tests, and have correctly called out one high-end amplifier from another, in double blind testing.

All this does not even approach the issues of loudspeaker load, clipping levels, topology, cables used, and plenty more. And finally, music is for enjoyment, not for stringent comparisons. If you're an aspiring gourmet, would you want to make a case (or even care about) whether all chicken tikka masalas in a bunch if restaurants taste the same?

I don't disagree - the test was purely to satisfy my own curiosity and may be flawed in that it will fail to reveal subtle differences
The key take-away at least for me being
a) To compare with your analogy of chicken tikka masalas - Fact is that the subjective difference between a CTM at say Dastarkhwan in Lucknow and a CTM at say a Paasha at The Pune JW Marriott is so stark that every CTM meal at the latter makes me reminisce and crave for the former - despite years of olfactory memories separating the two

b) To use another analogy, the difference in the handling and power delivery of driving say a BMW 3gt is so starkly different from say a car that cost 10% of it (say an Opel Corsa) that despite the ten years of muscle memory separating the two, I can still clearly feel a difference each time I drive

c) Or to take the analogies/comparisons into the auditory realm, I (and I suppose most others) can state with reasonable conviction that the sound of the cheapest combo above was starkly better than what I used to get with my Panasonic and subsequently Aiwa component (yes, of the notorious bazillion watts PMPO fame) from my college years even thought for inflation adjusted Rupees, the former would probably cost the same as 1+ speakers and certainly a lot more than 6 or 7 + speakers

I guess the point being that an amplifier that cost 65 times the other (amp 1 vs amp 7) , would you not be surprised if there wasn't an noticeably perceptible difference even if there are a few minutes or even an hour worth of auditory separation between the two?

And thus going back to the hypothesis - The difference in gain levels of the Amp stage of the AVR and Integrated Amp was the unexpected variable that got me on this wild good chase
I am still not sure if it's a lack of auditory capabilities at my end which caused this conclusion
Or if its (maybe partly ) the gain variance between Amps that causes a difference in subjective assessments

 

[G401fan]

Whoa...The stage for a discussion with difference of opinion is set. M sure we all will have experienced it in the journey in hi-fi. I m from the school of thought who firmly believe that each amp within the class of amplification and otherwise sound different. I have recently moved from a class A amp to a class D and have experienced a lot of difference from the same chain that existed with class A amp. The complete set of presentation is largely different. So from my personal experience, I can safely say that yes, the amp sound different.
I also have a related question which is slightly off topic but pretty much within the preview, it's often considerd that the class D amp is not very widely accepted in the audiophile community, wanted to understand y is it so? Also, is a class A 60 wpc is equivalent to ~110-120 wpc in terms of ability to drive speakers?

To reply to your queries:

No, Class D has gotten wide acceotance, and there are a few models out there that have high-end cachet. Class D does not stand for digital , but I'm sure you know that already.

60 or 120 wpc is relevant to the sensitivity of the speaker you are using, the size of your room, and the SPLs that you want to generate. There are folks on this group with 3W amps and 99dB speakers that sound loud enough for most music genres.

 

[G401fan]

As quoted before





I don't disagree - the test was purely to satisfy my own curiosity and may be flawed in that it will fail to reveal subtle differences
The key take-away at least for me being
a) To compare with your analogy of chicken tikka masalas - Fact is that the subjective difference between a CTM at say Dastarkhwan in Lucknow and a CTM at say a Paasha at The Pune JW Marriott is so stark that every CTM meal at the latter makes me reminisce and crave for the former - despite years of olfactory memories separating the two

b) To use another analogy, the difference in the handling and power delivery of driving say a BMW 3gt is so starkly different from say a car that cost 10% of it (say an Opel Corsa) that despite the ten years of muscle memory separating the two, I can still clearly feel a difference each time I drive

c) Or to take the analogies/comparisons into the auditory realm, I (and I suppose most others) can state with reasonable conviction that the sound of the cheapest combo above was starkly better than what I used to get with my Panasonic and subsequently Aiwa component (yes, of the notorious bazillion watts PMPO fame) from my college years even thought for inflation adjusted Rupees, the former would probably cost the same as 1+ speakers and certainly a lot more than 6 or 7 + speakers

I guess the point being that an amplifier that cost 65 times the other (amp 1 vs amp 7) , would you not be surprised if there wasn't an noticeably perceptible difference even if there are a few minutes or even an hour worth of auditory separation between the two?

No, I have to go with your subjective assessment. More, important, would you want your assessment to be the basis if your buying decision? In the long term? In your automobile analogy, both cars will get you from point A to point B. But which one would you prefer to drive? And , for a similar set if reasons, which amplifier would you prefer to own, to power on, to show off to your friends, to get a feeling of comfort, of reliability, of sheer bling, every time you look at it. These factors, as much as how it sounds, are inescapably, the reasons for your buying decision.

 

[square_wave]

I guess the point being that an amplifier that cost 65 times the other (amp 1 vs amp 7) , would you not be surprised if there wasn't an noticeably perceptible difference even if there are a few minutes or even an hour worth of auditory separation between the two?

Beyond a certain price point, the measured differences are not so different in amplifiers. Linearity, thd, imd, bandwidth etc. So in a "not so optimal" system ( especially in the source and preamp areas ), the differences can be minor. The preamplifier area suffers the most in integrated solutions like avrs and even integrated amps. Somehow, with integrated amps, competent manufacturers have found ways to reduce the problems and they sound much better these days. With avrs, there is no redemption because it is an all-in one solution. There is too much electrical noise in there. An avr is worst place a purist preamplifier can reside. Fidelity suffers because of this. Pardon me if I am coming across as a little brash but this is the truth. Try and borrow a good preamp and check it out yourself if you can.

So, what is about one amplifier that makes the ear like one than the other ? This can be a bit personal as well which makes it bit more complicated. Tubes, BJTs vs Mosfets, Type of components used, Point to point wiring vs boards..we can go on. These are choices amplifier designers make.

End of the day, how do you measure the impact of these differences ? What makes you want to turn on the system and listen to the music more ? What makes you emotionally connect more with your system ? That last bit is the biggest struggle in audio design and system synergy. For some people, that is a big thing. And they might pay a lot for that. For another it may not be so important. It is a personal choice.

W.R.T to room correction systems, the jury is still out there. Whenever I heard it, I found that it did something to the tone. For e.g. made Ella Fitzgerald sound like someone else. Ever so slightly but it bothered me. I will put up with some room issues over lack of fidelity of tone.

Well, what ever floats ones boat

 

[superczar]

No, I have to go with your subjective assessment. More, important, would you want your assessment to be the basis if your buying decision? In the long term? In your automobile analogy, both cars will get you from point A to point B. But which one would you prefer to drive? And , for a similar set if reasons, which amplifier would you prefer to own, to power on, to show off to your friends, to get a feeling of comfort, of reliability, of sheer bling, every time you look at it. These factors, as much as how it sounds, are inescapably, the reasons for your buying decision.

Haha, In my house, WAF dictates that I shove the amps away in a manner that they are not visible
In any case, I think all my amps have a place in the household - and were it not for a fear of the said force, I would have acquired a few more

 

[jls001]

Among the debunkers of DBT have been people like Art Dudley, Michael Fremer and John Atkinson ( of Stereophile) who have participated in such tests, and have correctly called out one high-end amplifier from another, in double blind testing.

I recall reading about Fremer and Atkinson. One possible explanation for their ability to tell A and B apart is because they are professionally compelled to listen to all kinds of audio gears and recordings critically, and write about them, and therefore they have developed the ability to discern even subtle differences.

I have been part of (too) many A/B tests (all informal, and rarely blind or double blind) and have often been surprised by just how differently different people listen. To cite extremes, some concentrate mainly on the tone and timbre reproduced, while some others care mainly about resolution of subtle nuances and details and how they are placed in the three dimensional sound field. Another surprising thing I often see is the variation in sensitivity to phase reversals - some can detect it within the first few notes, while others are totally oblivious to it. And this level of sensitivity (or insensitivity) is totally independent of one's audio experience. I think it's innate and may be considered both a blessing and a curse (especially if one doesn't have a polarity reversal switch in the chain). It's unfortunate that a very large percentage of both old and modern recordings have their polarity reversed. It's also surprising just how many stereo setups have imbalanced left-right SPLs, giving rise to offset phantom stereo center (and the owners have become so used to the skewed sound that they are no longer bothered). etc.

 

[surfatwork]

I haven't done any scientific, calibrated testing. But recently I was rotating my amps and was struck by the difference in resolution and control. The amps were the ussa-5, teac av500i, yaqin ms6v6 and a peeceebee.
The best was the ussa-5, subjectively speaking - apparent to my wife too.

 

[bornfi]

Though I cannot explain this scientifically but right from source to speakers, every equipment masks something and adds something (probably this is what we call coloration. The better/honest the equipment/wire you have, lesser is the masking/coloration. And less and less of masking is what adds joy to listening or rather reveals the intricacies of the recording.

There was a time I was with amp costing X and blindly imported an amp costing 14X and for the first few months, I was like - oh man what a blunder I did! And then, for some testing, I had to replace 14X by X and I was surprised that I just could not listen. And the difference is hard cover in words. A few I can think of about 14X are -

a. Authoritative (this contributes to accuracy from timbre perspective that further in turn adds to realism)
b. Silence (hear separation easily - no loss of instruments air)
c. Amplifying the the recording environment than just the signal (3D effect)
d. Less or no masking/coloration (More resolution)
e. Whisper-ish delivery - specially with Jazz music, if you notice music should come to you as if somebody is whispering in your ear that shouting)

 

[ssf]

W.R.T to room correction systems, the jury is still out there. Whenever I heard it, I found that it did something to the tone. For e.g. made Ella Fitzgerald sound like someone else. Ever so slightly but it bothered me. I will put up with some room issues over lack of fidelity of tone.

I can't tell the difference between amps, but I can tell the difference between pure stereo and room corrected. I definitely prefer the pure. The magic in the vocals is somehow diminished with room correction. Instruments, can't tell so much.

 

[Hari Iyer]

IME, the IC cables if noisy have the ability to make everything sound same. I have personally experience on this, when I briefly used telephone cables as IC cable which use to attract a lot of RF noise. This RF noise superimpose on the audio signal and mask the source and amplifier completely. That could be a possibility that everything sound same in your case. I have also checked this phenomenon in speaker cables like polycab, that make every speaker sound similar with no distinction of tone.

 

[superczar]

IME, the IC cables if noisy have the ability to make everything sound same. I have personally experience on this, when I briefly used telephone cables as IC cable which use to attract a lot of RF noise. This RF noise superimpose on the audio signal and mask the source and amplifier completely. That could be a possibility that everything sound same in your case. I have also checked this phenomenon in speaker cables like polycab, that make every speaker sound similar with no distinction of tone.

No fancy IC or speaker cables (I use amazonbasics all around) but nothing as bad as a telephone cable either (which I think will introduce a rather noticeable electrical noise/ hum well before we even get to the territory of subtle coloration/differences.

In any case, I have always maintained that my ears aren't particularly sensitive as I have never been able to hear a difference between things that introduce subtle changes.
As for my subjective list of things that I think make a difference .. This Assumes a minimum standard is being met across the board (e.g. no 10rs/meter wires for speaker cables or the 100Rs a set for cheap chinese RCA cables)
This also assumes the source is of a certain acceptable standard - e.g. no headphone out from the flavor of the season cellphone running 128kbps MP3s

Major - Speakers - IMO this is what defines the system and at least per me should be where a large part of your budget should go to

Major to Moderate -
A treated Room OR good room correction (in the absence of the former) : While purists may say room correction applies coloration, I would say that in the absence of room correction, an untreated room applies a significantly higher degree of coloration .

This however assumes that the digital room correction mode at work is a good algorithm - e.g. IMO audyssey (vanilla) and YPAO may actually make things worse . In my limited experience, I have seen Audyssey XT32 and Anthem do a good to great job . I have tried (but don't use) Dirac which seemed great. I have read great things about Trinnov but it's way outside my budget

Moderate
1) Choosing the right Amp for the task: It;s a complex exercise with a lot of variables at play. The right amp selection needs to take into account the use-case and budget in mind.

For example for someone working with say a fixed budget of a 40 or 50K , I would allocate 30 or 40K towards say a Q accoustics 3020 i or a KEF Q350 and select a cheap class D amp instead of say 20K towards a Boston acoustics A26 speaker and an acclaimed class AB amp

2) DAC - If your audio source is an electrically noisy pre-amp on say a raspberry Pi or say a Dell laptop, you can expect a significant improvement by switching to a dedicated good quality DAC
A good DAC need not be expensive - something that the ultra cheap lightning to 3.5mm Apple DAC exemplifies


Small (?) I personally am not a proponent of any cable that costs more than say 1000 INR. whether it be a RCA or HDMI or speaker or USB or power cable.

Of course, if you have a system that is at the bleeding edge of resolution/Imaging, the subtle differences caused by a 1% variance in resistance or capacitance may translate into a discernible difference.
The vast majority of users with low-mid range setups like mine however will in almost all certainty get the same experience with a $1000 Interconnect and a $15 Interconnect

I am sure there are people who will disagree so standard disclaimer - I don't have particularly sensitive ears