Does a lack of bass frequencies make me turn up the volume?

[Analogous]

Having become very attuned to a pair of bookshelf speakers with a subwoofer, I very recently got a very easy to drive pair of full range speakers. I perceived that they do not go as low as the sub at similar listening levels and I found myself turning the volume knob up to higher levels to perceive the bass better,,,,

This made me wonder if the lack of base frequencies leads to louder playback?

Thoughts?

 

[sbg]

My personal experience had been mixed - (Earlier when I did not use Sub)
- Few , using a Full range speaker - did improve the base ( better slam ) at louder vol.
- others had pronounced mid range at larger vol, but at near field listening (at random sweet spot ) and if kept near the walls/corners does seem to show up a bit of base.

What I tried was, (a DIY approach - having an 8" woofer - some local made Balton I think. )
- cut the spider make it free standing on surround only , and it worked fine for Low vol listening supplementing the full range.
( at high vol - the voice coil would hit the pole or the magnet/top plate on every extrusion - so , not helpful. )

 

[Kannan]

Yes...simple fact is more air is needed for more bass response, which means more driver movement.
But that is the basic, there are many other parameters as well like frequency response, power handling, xmax, impedance vagaries, box design and more electrical and mechanical parameters of the driver.

 

[Analogous]

I will try connecting and dialling in my sub again to see how I like it and if it reduces the volume/loudness to levels I prefer

 

[insane79]

Even if your speakers are full range(3 way tower speakers), you still need a subwoofer for low volume listening.
If you listen to high volumes then you might not need much volume from a sub but low volume listening experience is enhanced using a subwoofer, no matter which speakers & Amplifier you got.

 

[Analogous]

To make matters even more confounding I get good (deep, tight, textured) bass with some recordings (Eg: Massive attack, Mark Knopfler -one take Radio sessions) and don’t feel the need for a sub at low volumes.

With others I feel the need. The dreaded word EQ pops up like an unwanted visitor in my mind.

 

[jayantadak]

Having become very attuned to a pair of bookshelf speakers with a subwoofer, I very recently got a very easy to drive pair of full range speakers. I perceived that they do not go as low as the sub at similar listening levels and I found myself turning the volume knob up to higher levels to perceive the bass better,,,,

This made me wonder if the lack of base frequencies leads to louder playback?

Thoughts?

Yes, I too had experienced it. To get a decent bass you need to pump up the volume at least more than 50%. We hardly get any LFE on low volumes.

 

[arj]

Having become very attuned to a pair of bookshelf speakers with a subwoofer, I very recently got a very easy to drive pair of full range speakers. I perceived that they do not go as low as the sub at similar listening levels and I found myself turning the volume knob up to higher levels to perceive the bass better,,,,

This made me wonder if the lack of base frequencies leads to louder playback?

Thoughts?

Depends on the system and in most systems you do not get the dynamics at low volumes hence the tendency to increase the volume.

Bass is a result of the above as well as SPL does go up.

 

[bornfi]

Having become very attuned to a pair of bookshelf speakers with a subwoofer, I very recently got a very easy to drive pair of full range speakers. I perceived that they do not go as low as the sub at similar listening levels and I found myself turning the volume knob up to higher levels to perceive the bass better,,,,

This made me wonder if the lack of base frequencies leads to louder playback?

Thoughts?

I think you are not only missing the bass but also the grunt and larger sway. And if that is the case, then you need a more powerful amplifier.

Also, if you are controlling the volume at the source, then set that to maximum and adjust the volume at the amplifier (if you have an integrated amplifier).

 

[Analogous]

I think you are not only missing the bass but also the grunt and larger sway. And if that is the case, then you need a more powerful amplifier.

Also, if you are controlling the volume at the source, then set that to maximum and adjust the volume at the amplifier (if you have an integrated amplifier).

Thanks. I tried them with three different amps a 80wpc stereo integrated SS, a 45wpc hybrid (Tube pre and SS power) integrated and 9 WPC SET with 300B tubes. It goes pretty loud even at 20-30% volume settings with all three. These speakers are an easy load (rated Efficiency: 97dB SPL 1W/1m Impedance: 12 ohm. But I sensed the lowest base grunt was missing with them all. The volume on the source (Bluesound node 2i) is set to max.
I am delighted with the midrange, and the fantastic imaging.
I will add a sub to the mix and see what happens.
I just now discovered these speakers are supposed to go down to 35 Hz! All this fuss about the final 15 hz??? ( I am not sure I can hear 20-30hz any more )

 

[aeroash]

(rated Efficiency: 97dB SPL 1W/1m Impedance: 12 ohm.

Sensitivity

Sensitivity vs Efficiency'
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/tubefriendly-loudspeakers-sensitivity-vs-efficiency.91491/

I just now discovered these speakers are supposed to go down to 35 Hz! All this fuss about the final 15 hz??? ( I am not sure I can hear 20-30hz any more )

Most music doesn't go below 40 Hz, unless you're into Electronic genres. Below 40 Hz is primarily useful in an HT setup.

Frequency response of musical instruments:

Tech Stuff - Frequency Ranges

Zytrax Tech Stuff - audio introduction, frequencies of 10 octaves, frequencies of common sounds and instruments, table listing frequency ranges, overtones and undertones for many instruments. American Standard Pitch, Internation Standard Pitch, equal tempering and equal temperment.

www.zytrax.com

 

[Kannan]

@Analogous Which full range speakers are these ?

 

[drlowmu]

On these new speakers, what sort of wiring connects to the driver (s), internally in the enclosures. ?? Room to improve there?? Often is.

On a three way, internal to the enclosure, I like to run double 12 AWG ( m22759/11/12 ) to woofer driver terminals, single 14 AWG to the mids, and single 18 to 20 AWG to any tweeter.

On a so-termed full range driver, I try to mount decent Cardas Speaker Posts within 2 to 3 inches of the driver's terminals. Then jumper over with a few inches of maybe a 12 plus 18 AWG M22759/11 parallel combo, or finances permitting solid silver 18 AWG , three or maybe four in parallel for each polarity.

Then listen and evaluate. TRIO Mil Spec wire, amplifier to the enclosure, as the standard wide-bandwidth, low-loss procedure for that span . No touch polarities to retain the highs, and our listening interest / mental involvement.

An inch of bad wire can easily ruin one's musical experience.

Jeff

 

[Analogous]

Sensitivity

Sensitivity vs Efficiency'
https://www.hifivision.com/threads/tubefriendly-loudspeakers-sensitivity-vs-efficiency.91491/


Most music doesn't go below 40 Hz, unless you're into Electronic genres. Below 40 Hz is primarily useful in an HT setup.

Frequency response of musical instruments:

Tech Stuff - Frequency Ranges

Zytrax Tech Stuff - audio introduction, frequencies of 10 octaves, frequencies of common sounds and instruments, table listing frequency ranges, overtones and undertones for many instruments. American Standard Pitch, Internation Standard Pitch, equal tempering and equal temperment.

www.zytrax.com

View attachment 74465
View attachment 74466

I just copied and pasted the specs from Zu website. But interesting information about sensitivity vs efficiency in this thread. Thanks

On these new speakers, what sort of wiring connects to the driver (s), internally in the enclosures. ?? Room to improve there?? Often is.

On a three way, internal to the enclosure, I like to run double 12 AWG ( m22759/11/12 ) to woofer driver terminals, single 14 AWG to the mids, and single 18 to 20 AWG to any tweeter.

On a so-termed full range driver, I try to mount decent Cardas Speaker Posts within 2 to 3 inches of the driver's terminals. Then jumper over with a few inches of maybe a 12 plus 18 AWG M22759/11 parallel combo, or finances permitting solid silver 18 AWG , three or maybe four in parallel for each polarity.

Then listen and evaluate. TRIO Mil Spec wire, amplifier to the enclosure, as the standard wide-bandwidth, low-loss procedure for that span . No touch polarities to retain the highs, and our listening interest / mental involvement.

An inch of bad wire can easily ruin one's musical experience.

Jeff

Thanks for these thoughts Jeff.
I am extremely reluctant to consider opening up these boxes.
Their website discusses some details that might shed some light on what they have inside.

Zu Dirty Weekend Six [DW-6] loudspeakers. | Zu Audio | Hi-Fi audio speakers and cables hand built in the USA

DW 6 - fantastic first speaker, might be your last.

www.zuaudio.com

@Analogous Which full range speakers are these ?

They are called Zu audio Dirty Weekend.

 

[arj]

Most music doesn't go below 40 Hz, unless you're into Electronic genres. Below 40 Hz is primarily useful in an HT setup.

Frequency response of musical instruments:

Tech Stuff - Frequency Ranges

Zytrax Tech Stuff - audio introduction, frequencies of 10 octaves, frequencies of common sounds and instruments, table listing frequency ranges, overtones and undertones for many instruments. American Standard Pitch, Internation Standard Pitch, equal tempering and equal temperment.

www.zytrax.com

You are right and hence in most Genres it may not make a difference. But again some of this is deceptive eg Eric Clapton unplugged has a drum at around 25hz ( have measured in many years back). Grandmas Hands by Livingston Tyler also has a thump at low 20s which you will not hear in most setups
And once you hear it very difficult listening to the same without it but if you are not aware of it you can still enjoy the music.

The table you have given, for each one of these look at the lowest fundamental and then the harmonic undertones which is not just 1/2 of that but also one at 1/4th .All of this summed up ( ie fundamental + undertones+overtones) together gives you the timbre of that instrument and hence what separates the sound of a Cello and double bass at say 80Hz is not just the 40 hz but also the 20 Hz .

At 50 Hz and below music is also very tactile ie the ability of pressurizing the room and hence the impact on body becomes more important as well and hence large drivers or subs moving air can make that impact.

Personally my speakers go down to 35Hz and unless I put a sub cannot feel all of this as well but for 95% of music i listen to 40hz and above is enough

 

[IndianEars]

Having become very attuned to a pair of bookshelf speakers with a subwoofer, I very recently got a very easy to drive pair of full range speakers. I perceived that they do not go as low as the sub at similar listening levels and I found myself turning the volume knob up to higher levels to perceive the bass better,,,,

This made me wonder if the lack of base frequencies leads to louder playback?

Thoughts?

May take on your 'issue' is somewhat rather different from what has been expressed....

1. You have actually provided the clue in your First Sentence itself, which I have highlighted.

You have (unfortunately) become attuned to a sub woofer, which IS the Problem.

IMO a Sub woofer will NEVER integrate well with a bookshelf speaker, its 2 different birds singing Very differently. The Sub woofer will sing its own tune, and never merge seamlessly with the Bookshelf.

The Sub Woofer has its place in a Home Theatre System, which requires exaggerated Bass, to wrench the brain's attention from the Video to (atleast partially) the audio. IMO a subwoofer is a misfit in in a good quality Hi Fi system, unless it is used to CUT Room Resonant bass.

A bookshelf speaker is ideal for small rooms that cannot handle an extended Low Freq reproduction, which typically causes room resonance. Taking a bookshelf and adding a subwoofer is, I believe a bad approach. Better to buy a floor-stander from the same manufacturer as the bookshelf.

Of course Bookshelves also offer potential advantages like excellent imaging, but for serious HiFi you must live with the limited LK response.

2. Different speaker brands have their particular "House Sound" that the designer wants to emulate. Each house sound strives towards a particular goal, which may or may not be what you are looking for. That is why it is essential to audition a speaker (preferably in your room) before buying it. Never buy a speaker based on its paper specification, they NEVER tell the whole story.

I have heard only 1 Zu Audio Speaker, that too only once. From what I recall, Devore speakers' forte is their musicality & midrange.

Their House Sound is a bit 'Lean' or even 'Bass Shy'. So use it for what it does well. Do Not judge a fish on how it can climb a tree!

No Speaker can do Everything, remember Draupadi wanted her husband to have all the Great Qualities, she was warned, she insisted, and as a result got 5 husbands !

Also the Review Posted in this thread clearly mentions the need to place your speakers VERY Close to the wall "you can place DW6 as close as two inches from the wall behind it."

Placement close to the wall provides Bass Reinforcement. A corner placement will provide even greater LF reinforcement. Try paying attention to the speaker placement, you will get far more bass.

The 300B amplifier with these speakers should really make them SING... accept the somewhat lean sonic signature, and enjoy the Musicality and magical mid range.

You have got used to an exaggerated level of Bass from a Sub-Woofer, you need to re-calibrate your ears, and pay attention to what the rest of the frequency spectrum also brings to music enjoyment. You will be richly rewarded.

 

[sachinchavan 15865]

I will add a sub to the mix and see what happens.

Won’t that beat the purpose of a full range? Or at least compromise the integrity of sound you get from one? Is it possible that your ears are used to the bass from sub and with more weeks of listening you might start liking what these speakers can instead do for you? I’d rather enjoy what speakers can do well than try and get them to do what they can’t - it usually muddles things up.

 

[Analogous]

Whats is your chain of components ? I may have a solution.

Which of the amps you used sounded best, irrespective of lack of bass ?

I am streaming Qobuz through a Bluesound node 2i to a MHDT Havana DAC and tried 3 amps with the Zu DW.
1. LFD LE Mk 5 (80wpc, SS)
2. Croft Line Integrated (45 WHybrid with tube pre and MOSFET)
3. Dared MP30B with 300B tubes (9W, SET)

I liked the combo best with Croft and the Tube amp. The bass is definitely there with all three, but I would like to have it a bit more prominently present in the background. Grateful for your suggestions

Won’t that beat the purpose of a full range? Or at least compromise the integrity of sound you get from one? Is it possible that your ears are used to the bass from sub and with more weeks of listening you might start liking what these speakers can instead do for you? I’d rather enjoy what speakers can do well than try and get them to do what they can’t - it usually muddles things up.

you have articulated my conundrum very well

You have (unfortunately) become attuned to a sub woofer, which IS the Problem.

You are absolutely right about my becoming attuned to the sub (and expecting that bit to happen) but that is a problem I hope to solve with some help from here. I had after a lot of patient tinkering, a very satisfying integration with the bookshelf speakers and subwoofer. (Harbeth P3s with KEF KC62)
I do agree no one speaker pair does everything right. But the Zu does more of everything than any other speaker I have owned. Just that one niggling little bit of bass…
I have been trying different placement (not the 2” from the corner yet; I will do that too).
Meanwhile maybe my ears will get attuned to higher listening levels than before.
Hope springs eternal?

 

[aeroash]

Eric Clapton unplugged has a drum at around 25hz

Do you remember the song?

 

[Kannan]

You are absolutely right about my becoming attuned to the sub (and expecting that bit to happen) but that is a problem I hope to solve with some help from here. I had after a lot of patient tinkering, a very satisfying integration with the bookshelf speakers and subwoofer. (Harbeth P3s with KEF KC62)
I do agree no one speaker pair does everything right. But the Zu does more of everything than any other speaker I have owned. Just that one niggling little bit of bass…
I have been trying different placement (not the 2” from the corner yet; I will do that too).
Meanwhile maybe my ears will get attuned to higher listening levels than before.
Hope springs eternal?

it is absolutely perfect to add a sub to the speakers as long as you able to integrate it and the sub does not impact the additional transparency that you are able to get with the current speakers in the mids. You just need to get the crossover point and the attenuation right.
I do it with well-recorded tracks that i am well attuned to.
As I always prefer symmetry in speaker placement, the best spot for the sub in my experience is between the two speakers. if your main speakers are asymmetrical due to room constrains, it can get a bit more tricky.

I sit close to the sub so that I can do the adjustments on a fly and start with a bit higher frequency so that the bass can be localised even though blend with the main speakers may not be there at that frequency.
I disconnect one of the speakers and then adjust the gain and frequency so that it feels as if all the bass is coming from the main speaker and not the sub. i then repeat for the the other speaker then adjust further for phase coherence.
After this you have to ensure and adjust for coherence even as you go on increasing the volume of your main speakers so that the sub does not sound isolated or intrude into the upper mids.
Finally move to your listening position and increase gain on the sub to adjust for the distance if needed.
After this move around or to left and right to see how the bass responds, it should not fall off drastically,
Now move the sub a little to the front or back to correct this further.

Easier said than done, but if you are not able to pick a measurement mic and couple of softwares then the above way with ears is the best.

in my experience, a well-integrated sub offers superb SQ for a stereo setup, especially 2-way bookshelf with 6.5 inch and smaller drivers (even 8 inch) if you do not have the liberty of using large drivers in the mains.