Expensive DAC waste of money?

[square_wave]

perhaps you misunderstood me. was talking from a listening perspective. where i start hearing new sounds with a better dac. a lot of sound is shaved off in a lower quality dac

Sorry AFJ...That reply was for VenkatCR...i somehow clicked on the wrong button...cheers !!

 

[square_wave]

SW, I think you know the answer and you are just teasing me.

I would say nearly every aspect of digital conversion can be precisely measured. Remember anything in the digital domain are hard data, and you can put a value to it. Measured output of a DAC can correctly identify the following:

a. Resolution that measure the audio bit depths. This is directly managed by the chip.
b. Sampling rate. This also defines the speed at which DAC can convert a digital sample. Again controlled by the chip.
c. Monotonicity. This ensure the DAC output does not dip when the input increases. Again managed by the chip.
d. THD. This is how the DAC manages unwanted harmonic distortion.
e. Dynamic Range. This measures the difference between the smallest and largest signals. In the end, a DAC designer may use this to decide how much gain he should provide for pre-amplification.
f. Phase Distortion. This can be managed by the DAC designer.
g. Jitter. Here the DAC designer can work to reduce variation in clock frequency.

What I keep trying to say is that a good designer will ensure all these design aspects will be take care of through measurements. The only gray area is the filter that decides how a digital curve is converted to an analog curve. That is the subjective area.

If every part of DAC conversion process is measurable, there will only be one DAC in the world. I am not saying there is no subjectivity. All I am saying is that two good designers cannot introduce more that 10% difference to their output. So if someone says one DAC gives a completely different sound from another using the same chip and designed by a good engineer, all I can say is 'tsk, tsk'. If you read the reviews from reputed magazines, they always try to justify what they say with measurements.

Yes, I understand this from an engineering perspectivebut not from a music reproduction capability perspective. Measurements are just a basic engineering criteria ( a very important one though) for any audio gear.

This is moving towards a classic measurement vs listening discussion. That horse has been beaten to death many times over. And the jury is still out for the measurement folks. For the subjectivists, the jury never existed

 

[firearm12]

The conversion of audio from digital to analog can be measured and proven. Remember, Nyquist theorem is mathematical and all DAC conversion are based on that. You cannot argue with that. Noise level, jitter can all be measured.

Don't forget that instruments can measure frequencies and amplitude much more accurately than human ears can.

Cheers

Perhaps, the comment was misunderstood. It was not specifically meant for DAC's. Ofcourse after a particular music is recorded into electrical signals, we can use all mathematical theories to convert and measure signals. What I meant to say was that there is no mathematical theory that can prove that the music out of a loudspeaker is as "accurate" as what was played out of the instruments. Is there any?

 

[firearm12]

Why not? At least the person (or persons) creating the music should be able to equivocally state whether the music being reproduced is accurate or not. This should also extend to folks working in the actual studio.

I still differ. I think the expectation here is that when a recording is played though a system, it should sound same as if it was "not recorded". I dont think any system in the world can produce such a sound. Its pretty easy to tell the difference between a real instrument (or vocals) and the sound of same thing reproduced over any speaker. With whatever technology we have, speakers and microphones are used to present music in a way that sounds more pleasing (that is again according to the taste of the engineers). So, folks working in actual studio will never find any speaker accurate. Technology is still lagging behind for a perfect sound reproduction. Correct me if I am wrong.

 

[regeHA]

I still differ. I think the expectation here is that when a recording is played though a system, it should sound same as if it was "not recorded". I dont think any system in the world can produce such a sound. Its pretty easy to tell the difference between a real instrument (or vocals) and the sound of same thing reproduced over any speaker. With whatever technology we have, speakers and microphones are used to present music in a way that sounds more pleasing (that is again according to the taste of the engineers). So, folks working in actual studio will never find any speaker accurate. Technology is still lagging behind for a perfect sound reproduction. Correct me if I am wrong.

Quite true actually, professionals don't use any of the "audiophile" grade equipment sold commercially. They use studio monitors, which have the least coloration and the nearest to a flat frequency response as one could get. The truth is every speaker (and equipment by the same token) will color sound and add some processing to the mix always.

Studio monitors (at least the good ones) do this the least. By that same token they are not for everyone, I've used Genelec's in the past, and they were way too flat for my liking. I guess I like my music "colored" just the same as every other music lover.

PS: My contention has always been if everybody claims to do the same thing then they should all sound the same, but something we all know is not true. In other words, we should recognize marketing BS for exactly what it is.

 

[shanmune]

Quite true actually, professionals don't use any of the "audiophile" grade equipment sold commercially. They use studio monitors, which have the least coloration and the nearest to a flat frequency response as one could get. The truth is every speaker (and equipment by the same token) will color sound and add some processing to the mix always.

Studio monitors (at least the good ones) do this the least. By that same token they are not for everyone, I've used Genelec's in the past, and they were way too flat for my liking. I guess I like my music "colored" just the same as every other music lover.

PS: My contention has always been if everybody claims to do the same thing then they should all sound the same, but something we all know is not true. In other words, we should recognize marketing BS for exactly what it is.

You have put it aptly. What you (and myself in some of my previous posts) are referring is about true high fidelity - A flat frequency response. As you said, if everybody gets this, then all the gears should sound the same. Unfortunately, marketing nonsense has taken the precedence in playing with the psyche of the audiophiles and it is being done to an extent where even a mediocre thing can be branded and sold as an exotic stuff. Unfortunately, this happens more in this industry .

 

[panditji]

Unfortunately, marketing nonsense has taken the precedence in playing with the psyche of the audiophiles and it is being done to an extent where even a mediocre thing can be branded and sold as an exotic stuff. Unfortunately, this happens more in this industry .

Sir, it happens in all industries... Like audiophools, there are winephools, whiskeyfools, cigarphools, Canali/Brioni/Zegna etc phools, ladieshandbagphools and many more.... Whoever understands it the earlier is able to enjoy their life and hobbies more than the others....

 

[shailenderb]

Sir, it happens in all industries... Like audiophools, there are winephools, whiskeyfools, cigarphools, Canali/Brioni/Zegna etc phools, ladieshandbagphools and many more.... Whoever understands it the earlier is able to enjoy their life and hobbies more than the others....

Spoken like a Panditji. Very well said.

Regds

 

[music4mhell]

sir, it happens in all industries... Like audiophools, there are winephools, whiskeyfools, cigarphools, canali/brioni/zegna etc phools, ladieshandbagphools and many more.... Whoever understands it the earlier is able to enjoy their life and hobbies more than the others....

+100 ..........

 

[captrajesh]

Unfortunately, marketing nonsense has taken the precedence in playing with the psyche of the audiophiles and it is being done to an extent where even a mediocre thing can be branded and sold as an exotic stuff.

It can only work on those who are not sure of what they want.

Sir, it happens in all industries... Like audiophools, there are winephools, whiskeyfools, cigarphools, Canali/Brioni/Zegna etc phools, ladieshandbagphools and many more.... Whoever understands it the earlier is able to enjoy their life and hobbies more than the others....

Oversimiplfication overdose IMO.

 

[mpw]

i think the lines below by Srajan of 6moons are quite telling ( he refers to the joy of audio as an accident that happens when the conditions are right. The most audio lovers can do is to create the right conditions at your listening space. Once it hits you - you want to be hit again... and again... and again...
========================================

I'll conclude with something basic but true. It takes proper music (your momentary mood determines what that is) and a properly prepared frame of mind to end up with such encounters. You won't have one by merely firing up an inanimate metal box.

This deck is for more advanced listeners. They know the ropes of hifi's inner game. They create the right setting for magic to happen. The right gear is certainly part of it. But there's more.

Or as Osho would remind me, true meditation isn't something we can do. It's something that happens. Of its own accord.

Like an accident.

What we can and absolutely must do is make ourselves more accident prone.

===========================================

njoi !!

 

[Naturelover]

So absolutely spot on is Srajan here.
I've been having accidents for a while now and have become quite accident prone. Am I loving it? You bet I am.

Have been testing progressively higher up the chain recently. And quite a revelation it is, even to my untrained ear. Of course, it's the whole chain that needs to be addressed. Each component in it. And that includes the cables and the room.
Having a good pair of speakers is paramount here, I believe. Fortunately I am well set in that department
You can't just plonk an expensive DAC in an inexpensive setup and expect it to work miracles.
I have been testing some DACs, sources and cables of different levels and working upwards, first one then the other, and do find palpable, though incremental, improvements as you go higher up in each component.

And, boy, does the magic happen then! Let the music play on!!!

But, again, the point of diminishing returns kicks in and it's upto the individual to decide how far is far enough.

i think the lines below by Srajan of 6moons are quite telling ( he refers to the joy of audio as an accident that happens when the conditions are right. The most audio lovers can do is to create the right conditions at your listening space. Once it hits you - you want to be hit again... and again... and again...
========================================

I'll conclude with something basic but true. It takes proper music (your momentary mood determines what that is) and a properly prepared frame of mind to end up with such encounters. You won't have one by merely firing up an inanimate metal box.

This deck is for more advanced listeners. They know the ropes of hifi's inner game. They create the right setting for magic to happen. The right gear is certainly part of it. But there's more.

Or as Osho would remind me, true meditation isn't something we can do. It's something that happens. Of its own accord.

Like an accident.

What we can and absolutely must do is make ourselves more accident prone.

===========================================

njoi !!

 

[ranjeetrain]

Expensive DAC waste of money?

Yes they are, in any or all of these cases.

(1) For whom mobile phones are ultimate in pleasure.
(2) For those who just started into this hobby and haven't yet started feeling "something is lacking" in their system.
(3) For those who don't care that much about the quality of sound as much they do about the music they listen to.

For audiences like those these are the golden days in music reproduction. Digital has progressed so much that even entry level DACs today sound very good. They won't realize the benefits of going for a higher DAC because the entry level stuff is very good and that's enough for that audience.

For the rest, whether the expensive ones are waste or not depends on, once again, a "number of factors".

All expensive DACs are not equal, same way as all inexpensive DACs are not equal. There are ones that are worth their price-tag, and then there are ones that don't deserve half their sticker.

Test the water before you dive!

 

[naj]

Hi!!
This is also a DAC costing @ 1000 USD . All digital AV Pre Amp from Nuforce -
Link- AVP18 Audiophile digital AV preamp :: Optoma NuForce

But it's super functional . Good alternative to Many pre AV receivers . Hoping to be my next purchase .
Good Reviews on this !

Ref subject line - Cost is quite relative . It's how deep your pockets are. 2 months back my director showed me his McIntosh system and Some expensive unheard of European speakers, total costing over 35000 $$ . I told him, I am a few years from owning such a thing . He was kind to say it's ok . But in reality I knew he travels 25 Days a month . Rest of the month, I am pretty sure he spends shopping soft Angus beef in Swiss super markets as its his favorite topic of discussion .
It all depends on what you can afford and what you want and makes you happy .
Main Q - Do DACs make a difference - Yes they do . Atleast for me as I trust my ears . Technical Jargon is something else if one wants to argh .
Thanks -

 

[10june]

Hi. Would like to buy a DAC. I posted a thread last night. Any chance you could let me know your thoughts?

I play my music through my MacBook and have a musical paradise tube Amp. Its sounds really good but want to know if I buy the Muscial paradise DAC is it will get even better.

Also is USB audio better than mini-rca.

Thanks!

 

[Audio_Freek]

Hi 10June,

Welcome to the Forum, Please share your A/V electronics which is in current Set-up, Also share the Budget.

If you have Budget for 200USD and Below, Modi Uber 2 is best with Compact Design,3 Inputs and hope they sound with More detailed from your MacBook.