Expensive DAC waste of money?

[shanmune]

..

Also the exotic DACs will sound similar to the ODAC if using average speakers and amps as well as music... An expensive DAC really shines vis a vis an ODAC on really high end equipment and on very well recorded music... Now it's for each individual to check the capability of their speakers, choice of music they listen to and other associated equipment and room (most important) before they invest in an expensive DAC..

You can buy a very good DAC objectively but if your system and music are not able to bring out it's best, then the money is wasted...

panditji,
I respect your above opinion on the rest of the audio chain being on par with the DAC. Having said that, I really do not have a solid answer/opinion on what you said. There may be some truth when you say that an expensive DAC can shine very well only if the rest of the chain is also very good, but the same will also be dismissed (by the hardcore objectivists) as a fake marketing excuse to hide the truth. They may ask you to support your statement with objective data.

If I remember correctly, the comparison test (that I mentioned in my previous post) was done in a chain comprising of high end systems. I think it was Thad E Ginatham testing his ODAC in one of our forum members house. He can help us with some more information on the setup which he used for testing.

 

[square_wave]

panditji,
I respect your above opinion on the rest of the audio chain being on par with the DAC. Having said that, I really do not have a solid answer/opinion on what you said. There may be some truth when you say that an expensive DAC can shine very well only if the rest of the chain is also very good, but the same will also be dismissed (by the hardcore objectivists) as a fake marketing excuse to hide the truth. They may ask you to support your statement with objective data.

If I remember correctly, the comparison test (that I mentioned in my previous post) was done in a chain comprising of high end systems. I think it was Thad E Ginatham testing his ODAC in one of our forum members house. He can help us with some more information on the setup which he used for testing.

The problem is with the usual dbt methodology. Treating data coming from such tests as objective data has been a confrontational issue forever. This has been discussed a lot. There is no point in beating a dead horse, so I desist.

If we do blind testing using a methodology that closely resembles or models actual user behavior, you will start seeing results that are more meaningful. Time spent playing the music, familiarity with the system that is being tested etc..are very important factors in this way of testing. Some audiophiles do this when they do long term demos. Some dont because you need to do blind testing only if you are in doubt.

Also, there is also this big issue with using the results you get from the usual dbt methodology for taking buying decisions. For example, using this data, how do you arrive at the max top performing model for each type ( dac/source, amp, preamp ) beyond which one cannot hear any difference ?

Lets say, you arrive at this list of dbt approved top models. Now, you take these gear and replace all the gear in a reference grade music system out goes the fancy cables, dartzeels , audionotes and meitners of the world and in comes the "dbt approved gear"..all electrically specced to work well ( level matched too ) with the YG anat reference or some tad speaker.What will you hear ?

You can also do the same test by replacing only one gear at a time..

I have heard that you cannot make out the difference between a 200 $ receiver and a ref grade amp in the usual dbt test.

 

[keith_correa]

On the other hand, a not so expensive [read cheap] DAC will shine as well in a good chain so that is not the prerogative of only expensive DAC's. hyeah:

 

[panditji]

And if it does, it would be extremely foolish to buy an expensive DAC sir...

On the other hand, a not so expensive [read cheap] DAC will shine as well in a good chain so that is not the prerogative of only expensive DAC's. hyeah:

 

[panditji]

If the ODAC was sounding almost the same as the expensive DAC in a high end setup, then I would say the ODAC is a superb product...My own philosophy in life is to settle for the second best thing if it saves me a lot of money and effort..Call me lazy and unambitious but thats how I am...

Even in this hobby, I prefer buying products which offer almost the same amount of performance but for a lot less... So if I cannot make out much of a difference though on paper the specs may be superlative, I will always settle for the cheaper product since I am paying from my own pocket and I could live with the amount of difference...

Just to summarize, expensive DACs do make a lot of sense for people: Who have a lot of money and who want the extra 5% improvement whether or not they themselves can hear it or not... If you cannot make out the difference OR can live with the difference, then by all means buy a cheaper DAC and send me a link of the same as well...

panditji,
I respect your above opinion on the rest of the audio chain being on par with the DAC. Having said that, I really do not have a solid answer/opinion on what you said. There may be some truth when you say that an expensive DAC can shine very well only if the rest of the chain is also very good, but the same will also be dismissed (by the hardcore objectivists) as a fake marketing excuse to hide the truth. They may ask you to support your statement with objective data.

If I remember correctly, the comparison test (that I mentioned in my previous post) was done in a chain comprising of high end systems. I think it was Thad E Ginatham testing his ODAC in one of our forum members house. He can help us with some more information on the setup which he used for testing.

 

[raghupb]

Well said Panditji. I did something similar to your suggestion.

Needed a DAC to sit in between laptop/media-player and IA. So went and inquired prices of well known players. Had a lump in throat when I heard the prices. Definitely was not prepared to shell out 30 - 50K on this element.
So went and acquired Schiit Modi-2-Uber (landed cost $160). After inserting in my chain, very happy with its performance. It does what it is supposed to do. Better or worse compared to other peers or competitors, I don't know and I don't want to know.

Of the 6 DACs in house, my rating is as follows:
1. Schiit - good sound stage, great details in mids/vocals/highs, a bit of depth/layers to music as though vocals and instruments are being played at slightly different positions
2. 15 year Onkyo CD player (DV-SP500) - surprisingly wide sound stage, decent mids/vocals/highs, but no layers; sound seems to come from speaker plane
3. Marantz NR1605 AVR - Nothing to go to town about, does its job
4. Panasonic TV - Must not complain, it did served me well as a USB player for 4 years
5. Outlaw OSB-1 Soundbar - good enough for casual music listening
4. ASUS O! Player - Ugh

One of the main deciding factors to go for a cheap DAC were my ears. Took the 8/16 bit challenge from Pono player site. Failed miserably and then told myself "Old man, you don't hear well. Don't spend on something that you will not be able to discern. Go cheap and get basic functionality"

My music chain is not a budget chain, but is also not one to break "my" bank. A hodge-podge of components collected over the years. Each of them have been used well and regularly for anywhere between 0-15 years. And still have a lot of runway left. As the missus always says, I cannot ever shun middle class mentality.

Cheers,
Raghu

 

[regeHA]

If the ODAC was sounding almost the same as the expensive DAC in a high end setup, then I would say the ODAC is a superb product...My own philosophy in life is to settle for the second best thing if it saves me a lot of money and effort..Call me lazy and unambitious but thats how I am...

Even in this hobby, I prefer buying products which offer almost the same amount of performance but for a lot less... So if I cannot make out much of a difference though on paper the specs may be superlative, I will always settle for the cheaper product since I am paying from my own pocket and I could live with the amount of difference...

Just to summarize, expensive DACs do make a lot of sense for people: Who have a lot of money and who want the extra 5% improvement whether or not they themselves can hear it or not... If you cannot make out the difference OR can live with the difference, then by all means buy a cheaper DAC and send me a link of the same as well...

Well said Panditji. I did something similar to your suggestion.

Everyone (including myself) do the same thing, though not everyone may execute the same level of judgment as you do panditji. Kudos to you in that regard.

Truth be told, $3000-$5000 DACs are actually mid hi-fi, anything over $5000 is approaching expensive, and the real expensive (and also top-of-the-line performers) are in the $10,000-$100,000 price bracket.

Pretty much the only equipment I have heard extensively in that price range are music servers/streamers and speakers.

 

[keith_correa]

And if it does, it would be extremely foolish to buy an expensive DAC sir...

No comments on the "foolish" part - like I have said before, to each their own. What I usually look at is VFM. I know people who will upgrade to y from x if y sounds better. That's it! They don't look at the quantum of "better". If x costed me 10k and y costs 20k then for me the quantum of change should be 10k worth or at least worth 80% that (don't ask me how I determine that). If it sounds just better and if it is not worth the price difference to me, I will not even consider upgrading (if one can call it that). Blame it all on my middle class upbringing. Or cheapness!

 

[panditji]

I agree sir...

 

[humblebee]

It depends on the listener. If he cares about better recreating the audio, then he will start to notice the differences that 2 dacs make.
If he is interested in proving that all dacs are the same, then he will minimize the differences in sound produced by 2 dacs (in his mind). Which will result in his declaring something of this kind.

 

[venkatcr]

It depends on the listener. If he cares about better recreating the audio, then he will start to notice the differences that 2 dacs make. If he is interested in proving that all dacs are the same, then he will minimize the differences in sound produced by 2 dacs (in his mind). Which will result in his declaring something of this kind.

This is a gross over simplification of the discussion. What if I tell you that two DACs with the same silicon chip inside and configured well cannot show more than 10% difference in measured output?

Ears and the human mind are notorious for judging things incorrectly. In a way you are right. Beyond a certain point, the mind only believes what it wants to believe. That is the difference between being objective and subjective.

Cheers

 

[SatMumbai]

When I read the OP's first post, he starts with "Finally some honest review of how pointless is buying an expensive DAC", it is kind of clear that though the post title has a question but the actual post has no question from the OP but just his viewpoint as he already believes that it is pointless. Since there is no question, I am guessing there is no reason for OP to join the 8 page long thread (as of now), either in Thanking the thread participants nor in any other way.

Nothing for / against OP but just pointing it out in case some one missed it.

Peace & Bliss

 

[square_wave]

This is a gross over simplification of the discussion. What if I tell you that two DACs with the same silicon chip inside and configured well cannot show more than 10% difference in measured output?

Ears and the human mind are notorious for judging things incorrectly. In a way you are right. Beyond a certain point, the mind only believes what it wants to believe. That is the difference between being objective and subjective.

Cheers

What does this 10% difference in measured output mean if you have to translate it to metrics that contribute to its music making capabilities?

How will you measure and qualify those metrics ?

 

[venkatcr]

What does this 10% difference in measured output mean if you have to translate it to metrics that contribute to its music making capabilities? How will you measure and qualify those metrics ?

SW, I think you know the answer and you are just teasing me.

I would say nearly every aspect of digital conversion can be precisely measured. Remember anything in the digital domain are hard data, and you can put a value to it. Measured output of a DAC can correctly identify the following:

a. Resolution that measure the audio bit depths. This is directly managed by the chip.
b. Sampling rate. This also defines the speed at which DAC can convert a digital sample. Again controlled by the chip.
c. Monotonicity. This ensure the DAC output does not dip when the input increases. Again managed by the chip.
d. THD. This is how the DAC manages unwanted harmonic distortion.
e. Dynamic Range. This measures the difference between the smallest and largest signals. In the end, a DAC designer may use this to decide how much gain he should provide for pre-amplification.
f. Phase Distortion. This can be managed by the DAC designer.
g. Jitter. Here the DAC designer can work to reduce variation in clock frequency.

What I keep trying to say is that a good designer will ensure all these design aspects will be take care of through measurements. The only gray area is the filter that decides how a digital curve is converted to an analog curve. That is the subjective area.

If every part of DAC conversion process is measurable, there will only be one DAC in the world. I am not saying there is no subjectivity. All I am saying is that two good designers cannot introduce more that 10% difference to their output. So if someone says one DAC gives a completely different sound from another using the same chip and designed by a good engineer, all I can say is 'tsk, tsk'. If you read the reviews from reputed magazines, they always try to justify what they say with measurements.

 

[afj]

my two cents

any half decent dac chip with GOOD implementation will sound good on most systems. its not the issue of sounds being changed - its more an issue with sounds being lost. of course there will be come colourization, but not huge. as dacs get better (read better chips sets with GOOD implementation) sounds that were previously lost or less dynamic come to the fore.

so when you hear a lesser / cheaper dac, you do not immediately realize that the music is wrong, because what you hear is pretty good. its only when you put on a better quality dac do you realise what you havent been hearing.

goes without saying that other parts in the dac (other input chips, opamps, capacitors etc) also make a decent amount of difference

 

[firearm12]

Everyone's brain and ears work differently. I think one should try to listen and find out himself whether the differences exist between difference DACs (or whatever component). Often we run after other people's observations and then get disappointed. Everyone will have his own perceptions. Even DAC designers will perceive sound differently and accordingly design their own. Audio accuracy is not a mathematical theory that can be proved or disproved.

 

[square_wave]

my two cents

any half decent dac chip with GOOD implementation will sound good on most systems. its not the issue of sounds being changed - its more an issue with sounds being lost. of course there will be come colourization, but not huge. as dacs get better (read better chips sets with GOOD implementation) sounds that were previously lost or less dynamic come to the fore.

so when you hear a lesser / cheaper dac, you do not immediately realize that the music is wrong, because what you hear is pretty good. its only when you put on a better quality dac do you realise what you havent been hearing.

goes without saying that other parts in the dac (other input chips, opamps, capacitors etc) also make a decent amount of difference

Yes, I understand this from an engineering perspectivebut not from a music reproduction capability perspective. Measurements are just a basic engineering criteria for any audio gear.

This is moving towards a classic measurement vs listening discussion. That horse has been beaten to death many times over. And the jury is still out for the measurement folks. For the subjectivists, the jury never existed

 

[afj]

Yes, I understand this from an engineering perspectivebut not from a music reproduction capability perspective. Measurements are just a basic engineering criteria for any audio gear.

This is moving towards a classic measurement vs listening discussion. That horse has been beaten to death many times over. And the jury is still out for the measurement folks. For the subjectivists, the jury never existed

perhaps you misunderstood me. was talking from a listening perspective. where i start hearing new sounds with a better dac. a lot of sound is shaved off in a lower quality dac

 

[regeHA]

What does this 10% difference in measured output mean if you have to translate it to metrics that contribute to its music making capabilities?

How will you measure and qualify those metrics ?

Measurement has to start somewhere. The problem with any review pertaining to audio equipment is its 100% subjective (barring a few sites that also provide measurements).

The problem with subjective is everything is unique - the music, the mood, the individual may or may not have golden ears, pretty much everything will measure differently depending on the individual's mood. Had a fight with the wife, you can be certain that everything will suck. The guy (or gal) is in love, everything will be perfect and sounding great.

I know that's a very broad generalisation, and professional reviewers don't swing to such extremes, but anything steeped with subjective data is open to interpretation.

Objective data is at least free from such personal interpretation, but folks will not be ready to digest that a $200 DAC performs to within 90% of a $2000 DAC, never mind what the data says.

Everyone's brain and ears work differently. I think one should try to listen and find out himself whether the differences exist between difference DACs (or whatever component). Often we run after other people's observations and then get disappointed. Everyone will have his own perceptions. Even DAC designers will perceive sound differently and accordingly design their own.

Not everybody has the time, or even the opportunity to listen to everything. Eventually, one has to rely on reviews even as a starting point.

Audio accuracy is not a mathematical theory that can be proved or disproved.

Why not? At least the person (or persons) creating the music should be able to equivocally state whether the music being reproduced is accurate or not. This should also extend to folks working in the actual studio.

 

[venkatcr]

Audio accuracy is not a mathematical theory that can be proved or disproved.

The conversion of audio from digital to analog can be measured and proven. Remember, Nyquist theorem is mathematical and all DAC conversion are based on that. You cannot argue with that. Noise level, jitter can all be measured.

Don't forget that instruments can measure frequencies and amplitude much more accurately than human ears can.

Cheers