Great musicians of the 20th century

[moktan]

also taking it further from the significant points made by asliarun and shredder...i guess Rock at one time was more than music..it was a political stance ..hence when people like Shredder put current Indian college rock under the pejorative of 'noise' (not of course the 'creative' noise of a Sun Ra or Borbetomagus but a kind of a cliched repetitive musical noise )..i feel he perhaps associates a meaningless, aimless, commercial and imitative (not adaptive) connotations with the whole exercise....
this is not a political place..but if any musician wanted to be meaningfully angry, to have an angst, modern India with its contradictions is a ripe place..but we don't find that being articulated in the music of Indian Rock..or maybe i haven't heard those voices yet...

 

[shredder]

well put Moktan. The angst of modern India is articulated in the "music" of Parliament....... the sound of angry voices raised in a cacophonic crescendo, punctuated by the sound of flying objects like chappals and the occasional meaty thump of a fist on a fat encased body

 

[moktan]

well put Moktan. The angst of modern India is articulated in the "music" of Parliament....... the sound of angry voices raised in a cacophonic crescendo, punctuated by the sound of flying objects like chappals and the occasional meaty thump of a fist on a fat encased body

and here we have a problem...would we actually 'enjoy' that noise or would we rather that they were facing the music instead.....

 

[ajay124]

@shredder,asliarun,moktan
Great posts!Long,interesting,passionate,original and well written.
Without divisiveness,bickering,infighting,tagging or derogatory comments,
if one can keep communicating like this,then the forum can only grow stronger,better,
reaching out to more 'virtual friends' with a passion for music,films and all things HiFi

 

[asliarun]

On the subject of Indian bands, my strictly personal take is that I prefer to listen to Indian bands do covers. Like I said, it is strictly personal. It is not a prejudice.... I have been to a number of concerts and I have always felt that there was more energy and spirit in those concerts that featured bands doing covers. For example, I immeasurably enjoyed those Parikrama concerts where they did Van Halen covers like Jump, Deep Purple, ACDC, etc. In a particular Parikrama concert I was at, many years ago, the band that opened for them was Them Clones. Insisting on originality, this band played only original numbers and refused to entertain requests for popular covers. You know how many people were on their feet? Zero. All, including me, were sitting on grass, waiting for the main act to come on. Not that their music was particularly bad or anything. It's just that it did not strike the right chord for me, as also for the rest of the crowd. How many people sat down during the Parikrama concert? Zero.... if only for fear of being trampled by the enthusiastic crowd.
Then on to another great Indian cover band..... Moksha. I can't begin to describe the thrill that swept the crowd as the speakers blared out the opening notes of Aces High.

No doubt, Indian bands doing originals are good. But when it comes to originals I prefer fusion bands like Indian Ocean. No idea about NH7, but I watched a programme on Channel [V] (or was it MTV?) awhile back, something to do with a battle of the bands or something. They all performed original numbers, and well, all I can say is that it was incompetence masquerading as originality. There was neither rythm nor melody to their numbers, just an overusage of guitar effects, topped off with vocals that would do well in a fish-market to attract the most number of customers.

About covers putting originals to shame it is really quite subjective (as all music is). Because I have heard covers that made me wonder why the original artist would ever willingly allow such a cover to be made. For example: a cover of Bryan Adams' "Everything I do...", I recently heard. As to doing retakes of covers, it is akin to riding on the popularity of the original. And even though the covers may actually sound better, it is because of the original that we listen to them in the first place. I have also heard Brahma, (are they Pune based?) doing a rock version of Imagine and it went down quite well, due in no small part to the fact that everyone in the audience had heard the original, and were pleasantly surprised to hear it put to a rock tune. As it is, Imagine is one such song that can sound good with any accompaniment, even with a sitar, largely due to its lyrics.

Point taken.. for a while, I've preferred covers from Indian bands too, and have in fact followed Parikrama for a long time for this reason. Incidentally, I also heard Parikrama, at least briefly, during the NH7 show, and they played all originals from what I remembered.

What I was trying to say is that the Indian audience is fast growing up in terms of rock music maturity. Take for example, the kinds of bands that college festivals are bringing in... Opeth played in IIT Chennai last year, Porcupine Tree played in IIT Mumbai in 2009, Meshuggah played in Pune recently. Note that many of these bands have very complex and unapproachable music often with complex and non-standard timing - not the kind of music a person used to eating biryani adams would be able to digest.

This change is very much happening and slowly but increasingly gathering momentum, and you can see this quite prominently in colleges. My company hires a large number of college graduates every year straight from campus and I can see their music tastes evolving. Another change, as you rightly point out, is the fan following of rock and rock-fusion bands.

Indian Ocean is one, but there are many others which have powerful cult following. Raghu Dixit Project, TAAQ or Thermal And A Quarter, Swaratma to name a few have very loyal fan following nowadays.

Regarding my comment on covers, I only pointed out this album as it could be used to benchmark against the original. I actually haven't heard all that many good covers - and merely taking a soft song and adding distortion laden riffs does not cut mustard in my opinion. A cover should be a significant rework over the original in terms of musical content. Do listen to eMotive and do listen to A Perfect Circle if you haven't already - they are worth a listen!

Smashing Pumpkins - used to love the band, still do... lovely distinctive sound. The only critical comment I have to make about them is that they didn't push themselves enough.. they got into a comfort zone (much like many big bands did), and stayed there.

Another band that I remember dazzling me and then completely dropping off my playlist is Live.

Interesting coincidence - both Smashing Pumpkins and Lounge Piranhas have female bassists.

Speaking of which, check out this song called Snakes and Lotuses which they played in NH7 - quite a melodic song, and sounded much better than the really poor recording.

YouTube - Snakes and Lotuses - Lounge Piranha

 

[ajay124]

Parikrama,Meshuggah,Porcupine Tree,Indian Ocean,Swratma,Lounge Piranha...Why dosen't the mainstream media,television and newspapers, cover this scene.Why are they obssessed with the Michael Jackson's,Maddona's and Justin Beiber's?
For the past couple of decades my listening and imagination has mostly been confined to what I fondly refer to as DWE's.Dead,White,European's.Mozart,Beethoven,Bach,Mahler....
Reading the posts of shredder and asliarun makes me feel how old and out of touch I have become with contemporary rock and all the sound and fury which accompanies it.
Because of constraint's of time and space we inhabit small world's to the total exclusion of other worlds.We expect the media to trawl all those unknown spaces and provide us with knowledge about new things happening in the world.But the media has created a 'superworld' of a few thousand celebrities-politicians,sportsmen,artists,businessmen and the merely rich.The rest of the citizens of the planet have been relegated to a netherworld.They only become newsworthy as victims of train wrecks,terrorist attacks and tsunami's.Their 15 minutes of Warholian fame.
What could be more obscene than making lists of the 50 most desirable men and women in India,comprising mostly of men and women whose only talent seems to be that they can strut in front of a camera or on a catwalk.The masses relegated to the status of 'undesirables' happily buy into this nonsense and even vote for their favourite 'desirables'.
Newspapers,television and blockbuster cinema have relegated ordinary men and women into an 'invisible' world.As a citizen of the ordinary 'invisible world' I grant these creators of 'news' the same importance that they grant me.Which is Zilch.Nada.Zero.

 

[audiowhat]

Asliarun, great to hear you elaborate on all these artists here.

I agree with you that Smashing Pumpkins did not push themselves hard enough - and yes, did they have a distinctive sound!

I also agree with your comments on the band "Live" - their first big album "Throwing Copper" was so massive - both artistically as well as commercially - that they have never been able to repeat that kind of success. Its pathetic to see Ed Kowalscyk (Live's lead man) quarrelling with other band members these days over the final crumbling remains/memories of the band's success!

Raghu Dixit is very interesting - even though there is a cult following amongst the Indian middle classes for his music/ he had a massive hit in the Kannada film industry with the song "Mahadeshwara". This is a song that is played very loud by all the autorickshawwalas in Bangalore! This is amazing commercial success for a very very talented artist. And, oh, by the way, if you have not heard this song, you absolutely must - it is just brilliant.

 

[ajay124]

A few months back the teenage neice of a friend came for a visit.I was delighted to learn from her that there were many active rock bands in Chandigarh,Simla and near about.She herself was a budding drummer and heavy metal fan.We spent the evening listening to music from her iPod hooked to the Bryston's.There was a lot of stuff from amateur Indian rock groups and I was very impressed.There was nothing like this in the North when we were young.
While the guitarists and drummers were impressive,I found the lead vocalist's to be weak,self conscious and unable to hold my attention.The vocals seemed to be overwhelmed by the screaming guitar's and thundering drum's.Is that a fact or do we have our very own Robert Plant's,Roger Daltrey's,Mick Jagger's and Freddie Mercury's who can lead from the front?

 

[asliarun]

It has been a pleasure to read the insightful and extremely well written posts.. especially by ajay, shredder, audiowhat, moktan.

Ajay, completely agree with you.. it is a shame that most Indian bands are let down by poor vocals, all the more surprising considering that Indian classical music is predominantly vocal.

A theory.. lead singers with powerful vocals probably give up rock and end up doing playback and jingle singing.. probably for the money. Just a guess though.

audiowhat, just heard Mahadeshwara by Raghu Dixit, and quite enjoyed it. I can see why the song has been a hit.

Another friend of mine loves the song Ambar Pe by Raghu Dixit. I have to say that this is one of the better songs I have heard in a while.. very very nice melody and backed up with good lyrics (especially for a romantic song).

I also love the fact that the band members do their live shows in dhotis/veshtis and lungis, and that they are comfortable with their identity.

You can watch it here: YouTube - raghu dixit-Ambar

By the way, the Coke Studio set of performances by Pakistani artists is definitely worth checking out. I discovered Shafqat Amanat Ali from one such performance.

Coke Studio - Aankhon Kay Sagar by (Shafqat Amanat Ali):

YouTube - Coke Studio - Aankhon Kay Sagar by (Shafqat Amanat Ali)

 

[shredder]

A few months back the teenage neice of a friend came for a visit.I was delighted to learn from her that there were many active rock bands in Chandigarh,Simla and near about.She herself was a budding drummer and heavy metal fan.We spent the evening listening to music from her iPod hooked to the Bryston's.There was a lot of stuff from amateur Indian rock groups and I was very impressed.There was nothing like this in the North when we were young.
While the guitarists and drummers were impressive,I found the lead vocalist's to be weak,self conscious and unable to hold my attention.The vocals seemed to be overwhelmed by the screaming guitar's and thundering drum's.Is that a fact or do we have our very own Robert Plant's,Roger Daltrey's,Mick Jagger's and Freddie Mercury's who can lead from the front?

It is not the case that we have less talented vocalists in India. The late Leon Ireland of Moksha was a screamer who, from what I've heard of his singing, could have held his own against just about anybody. Same for Parikrama vocalist. But I will agree that vocalists of this ilk are few and far between, not just in India but anywhere in the world. With the budding rock bands the problem you pointed out of weak vocalists is largely true. One reason is that these newly fledged musicians get over-excited and each member of the band wants to be heard the loudest. So we have the drummer hammering away for all he is worth, the lead guitarist wants to be louder than the drummer and so turns up his amp, same with the bassist. And in the middle of it all is the poor vocalist who has to turn it up from deep down. And as we all know, it is way easier to turn up a volume knob, or bang something harder than it is to increase the volume of the human voice (even after making due allowance for the mike).....
This problem is almost non-existent among more seasoned bands, because experience is the greatest teacher, and also because they usually have a professional doing the sound mixing for them.

 

[audiowhat]

Thanks Asliarun for embedding these youtube videos. They were very good.


I was also thinking of artistes from India and elsewhere that may want to collaborate. In the 90s there were a couple of songs that Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and Pearl Jam sang together. Would people want to speculate on which artists are "ripe" for such global collaborations?

 

[moktan]

You just have to watch this insane performance of Mr. C.I. By Chano Dominguez and Jack de Johnette at
YouTube - Chano Dominguez & Jack DeJohnette "Mister C.I"
as well as Diego el Cigala and Bebo Valdes performing Lagrimas Negras at YouTube - Diego el Cigala & Bebo Valds - Lgrimas Negras (BOLERO)

and finally Chano Dominguez again performing Nfs at

YouTube - Chano Domnguez & New Flamenco Sound

 

[ajay124]

JAZZ ESSENTIALS
Louis Armstrong,Duke Ellington/The Great Summit,The Master Takes
Ella Fitzgerald/The Cole Porter Songbook
Billie Holiday/Any anthology from her best years-late 30's to late 40's
Duke Ellington,Charles Mingus,Max Roach/Money Jungle
Dizzy Gillespie/Jazz At Massey Hall
Charlie Parker/With Strings,The Master Takes
Charlie Christian,Dizzy Gillespie/After Hours
Art Tatum/Solo Masterpieces
Ben Webster/See You At The Fair
Lester Young/Blue Lester
Django Reinhardt,Stephane Grapelli/Djangology
Clifford Brown,Max Roach/At Basin Street
Thelonious Monk/Brilliant Corners
Oscar Peterson/Night Train
Coleman Hawkins/The Genius Of Coleman Hawkins
Bud Powell/The Amazing Bud Powell
Sonny Rollins/Saxophone Collossus
John Coltrane/My Favourite Things
Miles Davis/A Kind Of Blue
Dave Brubeck/Time Out
Dexter Gordon/Dexter Calling
Stan Getz,Joao Gilberto,Antonio Jobim/Getz Gilberto
Charles Mingus/The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady
Eric Dolphy/Out To Lunch
Ornette Coleman/The Shape Of Jazz To Come
Cecil Taylor/Unit Structures
Albert Ayler/Spiritual Unity
Art Blakey/Moanin
Nina Simone/Anthology
Sarah Vaughan/Anthology
Joe Pass/Virtuoso
Pac De Lucia,Al Di Meola,John Mclaughlin/Friday Night At San Francisco
George Benson/Breezin

! For someone starting out with jazz,it would be better to buy a recently mastered,well researched anthology of each jazz great,as it would provide an overview and would probably sound better.The 'Essential' and 'Gold' 2 CD sets are quite comprehensive.
!What I have listed are mostly original albums.An original album has it's own charm.It is more of a 'whole' and conveys the mood and music of the performer's and the era in which it was recorded.
!Cecil Taylor and Albert Ayler are only for die hard 'free jazz' fans

 

[moktan]

JAZZ ESSENTIALS
Louis Armstrong,Duke Ellington/The Great Summit,The Master Takes
Ella Fitzgerald/The Cole Porter Songbook
Billie Holiday/Any anthology from her best years-late 30's to late 40's
Duke Ellington,Charles Mingus,Max Roach/Money Jungle
Dizzy Gillespie/Jazz At Massey Hall
Charlie Parker/With Strings,The Master Takes
Charlie Christian,Dizzy Gillespie/After Hours
Art Tatum/Solo Masterpieces
Ben Webster/See You At The Fair
Lester Young/Blue Lester
Django Reinhardt,Stephane Grapelli/Djangology
Clifford Brown,Max Roach/At Basin Street
Thelonious Monk/Brilliant Corners
Oscar Peterson/Night Train
Coleman Hawkins/The Genius Of Coleman Hawkins
Bud Powell/The Amazing Bud Powell
Sonny Rollins/Saxophone Collossus
John Coltrane/A Giant Step
Miles Davis/A Kind Of Blue
Dave Brubeck/Time Out
Dexter Gordon/Dexter Calling
Stan Getz,Joao Gilberto,Antonio Jobim/Getz Gilberto
Charles Mingus/The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady
Eric Dolphy/Out To Lunch
Ornette Coleman/The Shape Of Jazz To Come
Cecil Taylor/Unit Structures
Albert Ayler/Spiritual Unity
Art Blakey/Moanin
Nina Simone/Anthology
Sarah Vaughan/Anthology
Joe Pass/Virtuoso
Pac De Lucia,Al Di Meola,John Mclaughlin/Friday Night At San Francisco
George Benson/Breezin
*Cecil Taylor and Albert Ayler only for die hard 'free jazz' fans

to this if i may add..
Sun Ra- Atlantis..Sun Ra was a very interesting character and his music reflects that..
Charles Mingus- Ah Um
Bill Evans- Live at the village vanguard (probably one of the best live jazz albums i have ever heard...especially if you like sparse piano work with the whole music being underpinned on some deadly bass ...Waltz for Debbie, Portrait in Jazz are other favorites by the Bill Evans trio
Duke Ellington - Live at Newport ..a riveting performance before a rather bored crowd who are roused up and on their feet by the time they begin to play Dimunendo in Blue and Crescendo in Blue in what revived Ellington's career...
will
Dexter Gordon - Go
Coleman Hawkins- Body and Soul...
Anthony Braxton- Saxophone Improvisations

 

[panditji]

Do check out Advaita also. Lovely sense of melody and rhythm:

YouTube - Advaita - Drops Of Earth

 

[asliarun]

Thanks Asliarun for embedding these youtube videos. They were very good.


I was also thinking of artistes from India and elsewhere that may want to collaborate. In the 90s there were a couple of songs that Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan and Pearl Jam sang together. Would people want to speculate on which artists are "ripe" for such global collaborations?

Hmm.. tough one as Indian music still does not span too many genres. Plus, most Indian music consist of individual performances, as opposed to group performances that is at the heart of Western music.

How about Ilayaraja (or Rahman) and Yanni?

Bjork and Zakir Hussain??

Nah, I give up

Actually, jazz would probably be the best genre for this kind of experimental collaboration, but I know next to nothing about jazz, except for a bit of Bella Fleck & the Flecktones.

And yeah, I remember the Nusrat and Eddie Vedder song. Was quite decent.

 

[asliarun]

to this if i may add..
Sun Ra- Atlantis..Sun Ra was a very interesting character and his music reflects that..
Charles Mingus- Ah Um
Bill Evans- Live at the village vanguard (probably one of the best live jazz albums i have ever heard...especially if you like sparse piano work with the whole music being underpinned on some deadly bass ...Waltz for Debbie, Portrait in Jazz are other favorites by the Bill Evans trio
Duke Ellington - Live at Newport ..a riveting performance before a rather bored crowd who are roused up and on their feet by the time they begin to play Dimunendo in Blue and Crescendo in Blue in what revived Ellington's career...
will
Dexter Gordon - Go
Coleman Hawkins- Body and Soul...
Anthony Braxton- Saxophone Improvisations

Ajay and Moktan, that is a fairly large list!

Any advice for a newbie to jazz like me? Which albums should I start with to begin my journey into this genre?

 

[ajay124]

Ajay and Moktan, that is a fairly large list!

Any advice for a newbie to jazz like me? Which albums should I start with to begin my journey into this genre?

If you look around a bit you will find "the essential" 2 cd sets of
Louis Armstrong
Duke Ellington
Miles Davis
John Coltrane
Also some compilations of
Charlie Parker
Dizzy Gillespie
Sonny Rollins
Thelonious Monk
Ella Fitzgerald
Oscar Peterson

 

[ajay124]

@moktan
In recent months I had been drifting away from jazz to almost exclusively listening to a few western classical composer's whose best works I have only recently acquired-Schumann,Brahms,Bartok,Stravinsky.
Yeserday after a long hiatus I played Black Saint & The Sinner Lady LOUD!I freaked out on the wild uninhibited energy of Mingus & Co.So I opened a bottle of wine and played many of the albums listed above.Have begun today's session a little while back with Art Blakey & the Jazz Messenger's Moanin'.When jazz is good it's really good!Like in this album.Clifford Brown,Max Roach at Basin Street coming up next.
Thanks for reminding me about Bill Evans.Many years ago I had bought an album called Sahara which was not my kind of music.I have stupidly associated that album with Bill Evans and did not pursue his music further.A simple google search reminded me that Sahara was a Mccoy Tyner album.Somehow I have never grooved on the 70' jazz of Chick Correa,Jack De Johnette,Keith Jarret,Mccoy Tyner,Herbie Hancock,Billie Cobham.Find it charmless and pretentious when compared to the golden oldies like Duke and Satchmo.
But now I intend to source the 1961 Village Vanguard recording of Bill Evans with Scott La Motian and Paul Faro.Also Waltz For Debbie.Looking forward to listening to both of them

 

[moktan]

Ajay and Moktan, that is a fairly large list!

Any advice for a newbie to jazz like me? Which albums should I start with to begin my journey into this genre?

if you would like to listen to someone who revels in the joyous exuberance of his piano, then go no further than Michel Petrucianni...especially his live Trio in Tokyo with Steve Gad on drums and Anthony Jackson on bass..
if you want to listen to well canonized standards on jazz..you may want to begin with Miles Davis' Kind of Blue..you will find this album in almost everyone's list of favorite jazz albums and every time you listen to it, it lives up to the hype...
also John Coltrane's A Love Supreme - a sublime album, the kind of jazz that touches your soul....