How to achieve a warm sound from an otherwise transparent setup?

[Deleted member 15865]

The signature of a system consisting of a tube preamp driving a solid state amp is markedly and immediately noticeably different from one with a tube amp in nearly all musical respects, except the SS may clip hard and the tube preamp would emulate a soft clip on it, depending on the design. But we are not talking about overdriven music - that doesn't count as hi-fi, let alone high-end.

What then, do people talk about, when they talk about tube sound? While it has been established by top experts on the subject, that in order to get tube sound one must use a tube amp, it seems the tube preamp plus random solid state amp combination is now being hard pushed in the audiophile field, accompanied by claims of the combo having that expensive tube sound for a fraction's fraction of the price.

I am sorry, but it just doesn't have that.
I mean the output transformer.

Fine. Are the tube amp makers willing to take the challenge to come up with budget integrated amp at say 20-30K and collaborate with speaker makers to build matching high sensitivity speakers below 40k? (Prices at which an entrant audiophile can today easily get an integrated SS driven system up and going). Then a lot of us can afford the pure tube set ups.

 

[sidvee]

Tube Preamp with Solid State Amp

I've always had a Solid State Amp with a Solid State Pre Amp. Is anyone using a Tube Preamp with SS? I've matched SS Preamps with tubes and got the warmth of tubes but never the other way around.

audiokarma.org

tube preamp w/ solid state amp

are there any problems in using a tube preamp with a solid state amp? any guidelines in mixing tubes and solid state?thanks in advance

forum.audiogon.com

What are the characteristics of a tube pre-amp/solid state amp set-up?

Hi, I am trying to figure out if a tube pre-amp/solid state amp system might be the right solution for me. I’ve had all tube or all solid state in...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Matching Solid State Amp w/ Tube Preamp

Aloha, Are there impedance or other technical issues to such a pairing? Or can one freely mix solid state amps w/ tube preamps? Thanks

audiophilestyle.com

A simple google search offered up all the above links with varying opinions on tube pres/ with solid state power - and there must a million more discussions on this type of a pairing with varying recommendations. In my limited and novice experience, if your speaker is capable of being driven by a tube amplifier then nothing like tube amplification for that warmish, laid back sound signature. Else using a tube preamp with a ss amp. is the next best option. However I am far from being an expert, so perhaps my experience does not count too much - and I may be wrong. Regardless both my current systems are using this type of an amplification scheme, and I am very satisfied. I also had numerous tube amps. in my system in the past as well.
A word of caution - getting tube replacements in India is quite hard, I have yet to find a store in India that will reliably sell tubes (that have been properly tested and matched). For me, till now, only source has been to import with mixed results.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[shaan]

Fine. Are the tube amp makers willing to take the challenge to come up with budget integrated amp at say 20-30K and collaborate with speaker makers to build matching high sensitivity speakers below 40k? Then a lot of us can afford the pure tube set ups.

The tube amp makers are always taking challenges. It is wise not to confine the zone of challenge in a category that is reflective of the depth of my pocket.

I can't afford a good tube amp. And I am fine with their prices. I think it is best that they are bloody expensive, I think it is natural that they are bloody expensive. Have you tried winding an output transformer with performances similar to the likes we get inside tube amps from respected brands?

Anyways, seems we are drifting away. My point was that what you are hearing with a tube amp driving a speaker, is not the tube amp. It is the transformer. Lion's share of the good aspects of "tube sound" comes from that, along with its natural draw backs.

Tube Preamp with Solid State Amp

I've always had a Solid State Amp with a Solid State Pre Amp. Is anyone using a Tube Preamp with SS? I've matched SS Preamps with tubes and got the warmth of tubes but never the other way around.

audiokarma.org

tube preamp w/ solid state amp

are there any problems in using a tube preamp with a solid state amp? any guidelines in mixing tubes and solid state?thanks in advance

forum.audiogon.com

What are the characteristics of a tube pre-amp/solid state amp set-up?

Hi, I am trying to figure out if a tube pre-amp/solid state amp system might be the right solution for me. I’ve had all tube or all solid state in...

forums.stevehoffman.tv

Matching Solid State Amp w/ Tube Preamp

Aloha, Are there impedance or other technical issues to such a pairing? Or can one freely mix solid state amps w/ tube preamps? Thanks

audiophilestyle.com

A simple google search offered up all the above links with varying opinions on tube pres/ with solid state power - and there must a million more discussions on this type of a pairing with varying recommendations. In my limited and novice experience, if your speaker is capable of being driven by a tube amplifier then nothing like tube amplification for that warmish, laid back sound signature. Else using a tube preamp with a ss amp. is the next best option. However I am far from being an expert, so perhaps my experience does not count too much. Regardless both my current systems are using this type of an amplification scheme, and I am very satisfied. I also had may tube amps. in the past as well.
A word of caution - getting tube replacements in India is quite hard, I have yet to find a store in India that will reliably sell tubes (that have been properly tested and matched). For me till now only source has been to import with mixed results.
Cheers,
Sid

Well a lot of discussion and recommendation by the community over a probable (not "possible") alternative to tube amps because their is a tube somewhere in the signal chain does not make it a fact that tube pre plus SS combos are an alternative to tube amp setups, or even the next best thing. Why? As soon as you get rid of that transformer, you lose ALL the complex frequency dependent amp-speaker interactions that happen in a proper tube amp setup. That very interaction, is the signature of the tube amp setup, and is unique to that combo only; just like a 300Watt high damping factor SS amp's interaction with a 12" 90dB heavy-coned bass driver is unique to it, and a tube amp can only dream of achieving a similar performance.

My little "objection" is not related to tube vs SS, but with readers taking anecdotes as proofs. I have seen too many genuine music lovers led to wander about in search for their next best system, instead of relaxing on the couch and just listen to the music (while ignoring that third person sniffing faults in the sound). The high-end market (currently "aliexpress" etc.) hates to see this happen!

 

[sidvee]

Well a lot of discussion and recommendation by the community over a probable (not "possible") alternative to tube amps because their is a tube somewhere in the signal chain does not make it a fact that tube pre plus SS combos are an alternative to tube amp setups, or even the next best thing. Why? As soon as you get rid of that transformer, you lose ALL the complex frequency dependent amp-speaker interactions that happen in a proper tube amp setup. That very interaction, is the signature of the tube amp setup, and is unique to that combo only; just like a 300Watt high damping factor SS amp's interaction with a 12" 90dB heavy-coned bass driver is unique to it, and a tube amp can only dream of achieving a similar performance.

My little "objection" is not related to tube vs SS, but with readers taking anecdotes as proofs. I have seen too many genuine music lovers led to wander about in search for their next best system, instead of relaxing on the couch and just listen to the music (while ignoring that third person sniffing faults in the sound). The high-end market (currently "aliexpress" etc.) hates to see this happen!

I defer to you, I am not an expert by any means and very technically inept. To o/p please ignore my earlier post, since it is just based on my personal experience. Prefer not to misguide any genuine music lover.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[shaan]

I defer to you, I am not an expert by any means and very technically inept. To o/p please ignore my earlier post, since it is just based on my personal experience. Prefer not to misguide any genuine music lover.
Cheers,
Sid

Me too!

 

[Deleted member 15865]

My little "objection" is not related to tube vs SS, but with readers taking anecdotes as proofs.

To o/p please ignore my earlier post, since it is just based on my personal experience.

And one thought sharing personal experiences/anecdotes was a part of helping another forum member. Otherwise all ‘what should I do’ posts should only be answered by experts.

 

[sidvee]

And one thought sharing personal experiences/anecdotes was a part of helping another forum member. Otherwise all ‘what should I do’ posts should only be answered by experts.

This discussion is an age old one Sachin, nothing new here (I have attached a sample of discussions in various forums in my previous posts). I have read about so called experts recommend both ways, some say introducing a tubed component at the source stage will bring some tube magic, some recommend at the preamp stage, some say at the amp. stage, some say all tube systems only will sound magical, some say all tube systems sound slow, some say a tube buffer is sufficient and so on and so forth. One can only experience for oneself what sounds best to their ears. I have had systems in all the above configurations (with highly regarded components) at one time or other, but for me the ease of drive-ability of the loudspeaker supersedes any thing else. If the speaker cannot be driven optimally then it hardly matters what is upstream of it. There are so many excellent speakers that cannot be driven well by a tube amp. , low efficiency designs like sealed boxes, or impedance that dip into 1 ohms like planars. Not everyone likes single driver speakers or the highly efficient horn designs, so what happens in that case? Should one go all ss, should one try some of the above mentioned setups? I am assuming that is what the op was asking and my solution to it is what I suggested and have experienced over many years.
BTW for more than a decade I only used tube amplifiers, specifically push pull mono block designs, and more recently I used a push pull and single ended integrated for over 6-7 years. Has switching to solid state made me regret my choice? On the contrary I am thoroughly enjoying both my solid state designs now, albeit driven by tube preamps.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[keith_correa]

Voxengo Warmifier - Harmonic Enhancer Plugin, Tube Warming VST, AU, AAX

Audio effect plugin designed to deliver tube warming and harmonic enhancement that makes your tracks sound warmer, fuller, and lively!

www.voxengo.com

 

[sidvee]

God is in the Nuances

This journal has seen a number of thoughtful ruminations on what it is that attracts us to music or to a given audio component, and how we should describe that attraction. The "Letters" pages have been filled by readers who have taken us to task for not adhering to rigorous scientific methods in...

www.stereophile.com

Cheers,
Sid

 

[swami69]

Fine. Are the tube amp makers willing to take the challenge to come up with budget integrated amp at say 20-30K and collaborate with speaker makers to build matching high sensitivity speakers below 40k? (Prices at which an entrant audiophile can today easily get an integrated SS driven system up and going). Then a lot of us can afford the pure tube set ups.

I am sure there are possibilities and I am enjoying one at a total cost of 30K (Integrated OldChen tube amp + DIY open baffle Ahuja 12”FR), but it may not be for all as the OBs have a large foot print. If space available, it is fantastic I would say

swami

 

[Deleted member 15865]

God is in the Nuances

This journal has seen a number of thoughtful ruminations on what it is that attracts us to music or to a given audio component, and how we should describe that attraction. The "Letters" pages have been filled by readers who have taken us to task for not adhering to rigorous scientific methods in...

www.stereophile.com

Cheers,
Sid

From the article:
“Very few people listen to music to have their rational faculties appealed to.
“The overwhelming majority listen to music for an emotional experience.”

Now, read my signature.

 

[AmaravatiListener]

The signature of a system consisting of a tube preamp driving a solid state amp is markedly and immediately noticeably different from one with a tube amp in nearly all musical respects, except the SS may clip hard and the tube preamp would emulate a soft clip on it, depending on the design. But we are not talking about overdriven music - that doesn't count as hi-fi, let alone high-end.

What then, do people talk about, when they talk about tube sound? While it has been established by top experts on the subject, that in order to get tube sound one must use a tube amp, it seems the tube preamp plus random solid state amp combination is now being hard pushed in the audiophile field, accompanied by claims of the combo having that expensive tube sound for a fraction's fraction of the price.

I am sorry, but it just doesn't have that. I mean the output transformer.

Just for my understanding - you are saying only a tube power amplifier will do the trick and tube preamplifier has no bearing (or very little) on the output?

Regardless both my current systems are using this type of an amplification scheme, and I am very satisfied. I also had numerous tube amps. in my system in the past as well.

Thank you for your opinion - your experience seems to be the general experience even on the threads you had shared, a few of which I had already read. Enough to get me to try the preamp/SS combo.

What I have noticed is that there are a lack of opinions on this from "experts" - which is why I had initially called on Mr.Bakshi.

I suppose I have to first understand what is "tube magic" and what produces it - @shaan has helpfully pointed out that it is the output transformer that produces this "tube magic". At the same time a lot of people have observed (granted subjectively) that adding preamps to the chain has helped achieved a bit of the tube magic.

This question becomes a lot more interesting because of the way most manufacturers position their products. For example PrimaLuna sells their EVO 400 Tube Preamplifier for 4500 USD, the EVO 400 Power amplifier for 4500 USD and the EVO 400 Integrated amplifier for 5000 USD.

If it were only the Power amplifier that made a difference (or most of it anyway) - there should be no market at all for the Tube Preamplifier - considering that the integrated amplifier is available at minimal extra cost. (please do not see this observation in the intergrated v. separates light - I'm looking at it from "how to introduce tube sound" perspective)

I do understand the pitfalls of this conversation. It is a long standing debate and is an extension of the snake oil in audio conversation. I dont mean to reinvent the wheel - given my specific conundrum I'm just putting my thoughts out there thats all.

Not everyone likes single driver speakers or the highly efficient horn designs, so what happens in that case? Should one go all ss, should one try some of the above mentioned setups? I am assuming that is what the op was asking and my solution to it is what I suggested and have experienced over many years.
BTW for more than a decade I only used tube amplifiers, specifically push pull mono block designs, and more recently I used a push pull and single ended integrated for over 6-7 years. Has switching to solid state made me regret my choice? On the contrary I am thoroughly enjoying both my solid state designs now, albeit driven by tube preamps.
Cheers,
Sid

Thank you Sid, I couldn't have framed it better.

 

[sidvee]

At the same time a lot of people have observed (granted subjectively) that adding preamps to the chain has helped achieved a bit of the tube magic.

Just to muddy the waters a bit more @AmaravatiListener , I have heard tube magic in spades just by adding a tube DAC to an all solid state system, specifically when I bought a Line magnetic LM502ca DAC. The loudspeakers were ATC SCM 19v1, which are known to be super-revealing of upstream components. I could immediately hear the tube bloom and warmth that I was sorely missing in this system through a solid state DAC. Yes and I agree with you, if tube magic existed only in amplifiers then all the upstream components like tube pres and dacs etc wouldn't real have a market and subjectively we wouldn't hear anything different with them in the chain when compared to ss components. Also why would any one hear any change in the sound signature, by tube rolling in preamps etc., if they didn't matter (Maybe they don't matter after all and all these years I along with many thousands of others have some faulty hearing issues)? Anyways just my 2 cents.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[sunilj]

Have a tube buffer and preamp, both 6SN7 based DIY. Prefer the preamp. Both have a warm sound.

 

[bhaskarcan]

The two Viren ji's posts clarify precisely the issue raised by the OP.
FM Shaan brings in the technical side of the tube sound which remains in line with Mr Nelson Pass's observation(ref F6 manual).
Now the question which needs to be answered is that, in a blind test, is it possible to differentiate comprehensively between the sound of a tube setup vs a solid state setup or a combination of tube/SS?
Since many of contemporary famous electronics designers tend to voice their SS equipments for a "tubelike" sound, the contour line between two types of reproduction, if any, is becoming more and more blur.
Personally, after trying out all the combinations of tube n SS, as mentioned in the first post, my systems (I have two main systems) are naturally settled in: a) SS phono(diy) with Leben tube amp driving Rethm Saadhna speakers.
b) tube pre (diy) with Pass F5 monoblocks driving a Tannoy Monitor Gold15 pair.
And to me, both the setups are equally enjoyable and pleasing. Hence IMHO, it all boils down to the synergy of the various equipments in the system and it's capability to please the system owner, irrespective of what topology is used upstream.

Regards,
Bhaskar

BTW, while researching various tubes, I observed, for a given tube number, over the time, various manufacturers have produced the same tube with different Anode currents, different amplification factor, different plate voltage range etc. (The main reason for tube matching?). I wonder how these samples with different technical specs will behave in a circuit which is optimized for a particular tube with a particular specification.

 

[Beast_of_burden]

Personally, after trying out all the combinations of tube n SS, as mentioned in the first post, my systems (I have two main systems) are naturally settled in: a) SS phono(diy) with Leben tube amp driving Rethm Saadhna speakers.
b) tube pre (diy) with Pass F5 monoblocks driving a Tannoy Monitor Gold15 pair.

Regards,
Bhaskar

I have to commend your fine taste. Both amps are the cream of the crop from their respective camps. Truly high end speakers to match, what's not to like. I could get used to this level of luxury. Never heard Pass labs or Firstwatt but the F5s are supposed to be the sweetest sounding amps from the entire First watt line up.