HT in a small 10x12 room at around Rs 3.5L

[ssf]

I think the term is room gain/boundary reinforcement? While room gain exists it does so by reflecting the sound, probably not ideal IMO.

I think this would come down to preference like most things, the overlap might sound better either way but integration (needless to say) is key, particularly the time domain. As for being "comfortable" this would depend on the speakers thermal and mechanical capability in the passband, as long as it has some juice in tank it should be okay, although that usually means big (12">) and multiple powerful drivers in the speaker (this also depends on desired SPL levels so "it depends"). For smaller drivers I concur that it may be more ideal to cross higher than the speakers minimum cut off, but this will ultimately depend on the speaker/sub being used and the preferences of its owner. To note is that most subwoofers don't usually sound good when being crossed higher than 100Hz, also localization can present. I also personally advocate 2 subs (or more), even if you don't need the SPL, on both sides of the listener, the "pressure" is even and presents a more immersive sound. Many people advocate multiple subs to smooth response but I don't subscribe to it.

Again, very valid and informative. But in this case, the speaker goes down to 80 Hz. So, I don't think this speaker has the ability to handle a lower crossover setting. With speakers like these, the sub would probably need to be placed very close to the front LR so that even if there is localization due to higher crossovers, it would still not be as bad as isolating the sub in a place not close the the front LR.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Again, very valid and informative. But in this case, the speaker goes down to 80 Hz. So, I don't think this speaker has the ability to handle a lower crossover setting. With speakers like these, the sub would probably need to be placed very close to the front LR so that even if there is localization due to higher crossovers, it would still not be as bad as isolating the sub in a place not close the the front LR.

Please pardon but I may have missed the speaker/subwoofer model in question. Could you please let me know?

While it would help to place the sub closer to LR so it appears all sound is coming from the LR/front it may still be objectionable. As before subs often sound poor with higher XOs. One of the reasons for this is firstly both their phase and frequency responses can be "ragged" up top above 100Hz, why does this matter? Because filters are not brick walls as before, this includes the subs built in filter and the AVR filter. There is also THD to contend with, higher order THD can sound bad not to mention that many "sub" drivers generally don't sound good above the bass range. Even when filtered the sub may produce sufficient output above crossover to sound bad. This is also compounded when the overall sub level is much higher than the mains level (for those who like to run their subs 10db or more "hot") so even if the "electrical" XO is set at 80Hz, the "acoustical" XO could be much higher. I hope this makes sense.

 

[ssf]

Hi,
So, a few weeks ago, boosted the Centre level alone by 3 dB, and it fixed a lot of niggles, but that artificiality about various actors' voices has remained.
I wanted to go through all the advice when I had it set up and stumbled upon this again.
And realised that I never got around to trying setting a separate crossover for only the centre channel.
It is currently at 100 Hz.
Will try 90 first and 80 for only the Centre.
Or can I go lower? (Speakers rated 80 Hz and above)
Regards

@Decadent_Spectre

I was replying to this post.

Once again I agree with all that you have stated. Good info for FM's getting into HT, speakers and sub.

A practical experience of mine. When the amp of my Velodyne EQ Max 15 broke down, I connected the 15 inch driver of my Velodyne to my crown xls 2502 after bridging the amp. I had set the crossover in my AVR to 80 Hz but the sub was getting frequencies above 80 Hz and it was not sounding nice at all. After I set the LP filter on the Crowns to 80, the sub started sounding much better.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

@Decadent_Spectre

I was replying to this post.

Once again I agree with all that you have stated. Good info for FM's getting into HT, speakers and sub.

A practical experience of mine. When the amp of my Velodyne EQ Max 15 broke down, I connected the 15 inch driver of my Velodyne to my crown xls 2502 after bridging the amp. I had set the crossover in my AVR to 80 Hz but the sub was getting frequencies above 80 Hz and it was not sounding nice at all. After I set the LP filter on the Crowns to 80, the sub started sounding much better.

Apologies. You had quoted me so I thought it was directed at me.

As an aside, perhaps the crowns LPF was more "proper", as it may have appropriately implemented the LPF and steeper than the AVR. AVRs I have read often have a 12db slope while the crown may have used a 24db slope, this might have been the reason for your experiences.

 

[ssf]

Apologies. You had quoted me so I thought it was directed at me.

No apologies required. That post that I tagged you in was the post that gave the low frequency of the speaker, ie, 80 Hz. I was trying to get your attention to it.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

No apologies required. That post that I tagged you in was the post that gave the low frequency of the speaker, ie, 80 Hz. I was trying to get your attention to it.

Ahh.

I think in that case it might make more sense for him to describe what he means by "artificiality" as I did not understand the problem and what he seeks to correct.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

So I went through the thread again and it seems k-pad has Monitor Radius 225 and REL 1205.

The sub has doesn't seem to have any high frequency limit listed on its official website specs.

The Monitor Audio is listed at 80Hz and 2x4" drivers, front ported. If it is ported around 80Hz then there will be time domain issues at this frequency (and chuffing at high output) which may interfere with the sub if crossed around this. They are also 4" drivers so it's hard to expect much from them (no offense).

I'd suggest (despite my previous posts) in this case to cross it at 120Hz. and put the sub right next to (or in between) the speakers as ssf mentioned. If there are still issues try to source some form of DSP or device which can implement at least 24db slope filters.

 

[ssf]

@Decadent_Spectre, @k-pad

Ha, I have to sometimes laugh at the posts that I make under the influence while still under the influence. The 80 Hz speaker in question is a center channel speaker. So while the crossover suggestions still stand, the placement of the sub placement suggested in a few of the above posts may please be ignored.

 

[k-pad]

@Decadent_Spectre, @k-pad

Ha, I have to sometimes laugh at the posts that I make under the influence while still under the influence. The 80 Hz speaker in question is a center channel speaker. So while the crossover suggestions still stand, the placement of the sub suggested in a few of the above posts may be ignored.

@Decadent_Spectre @ssf
Haha.
As it so happens, the centre has been resting on top of the sub for the last couple of weeks. (pic attached)
The vocals are clearer than before (when it was wedged in between a smaller stand and the desk.)
What I meant by artificiality is that while earlier the voices sounded natural, but feebler, now they are sounding bolder, but not so natural.
It almost feels like the voices have received a bass boost, if I could explain the experience. More like they are speaking through a husky-boomy machine.

I suspect:
1. This has got nothing to do with the 3 dB level boost I did on the AVR two weeks ago.
2. This has got nothing to with the sub being centred and right under the centre.
(correct me on the above two points if I'm wrong.)

3. Could have something to do with the proximity - the centre has moved a proper foot closer to the LP and I haven't run room correction again.
4. And the reason I asked my doubt: That Xo is set at 100 for all three fronts. I wanted to check if tinkering with the XO only for the Centre, would help.

Thanks a ton for all the suggestions.
Regards

 

[ssf]

I will graciously step aside and let @Decadent_Spectre handle this one. But a point to note. If you do any changes to placement of speakers or for that matter, furniture in your listening place, it is always advisable to run Audyssey again.

 

[k-pad]

Thanks, Dec.

1. I have offered you soundproofing advice in one of your previous threads.

I really seem to have missed this. Will check.

2. AC should always have its own line,

It does. All the ACs in the house have their own line.

for the others please check total power draw of your equipment and then use appropriate number of lines.

Will do. Guessing drawing a separate line will help in either case.

3. I do not ( and never have) use power conditioners, I don't believe in them so can't comment other than this.

I currently use a fairly robust multi-socket console, which hasn't given any trouble. Maybe thinking of getting a multi-meter/voltmeter just to be check for voltage at different times of the day first. And then a stabilizer or a surge protector at some point.
The reason I asked 3 was concern over ensuring clean power to the AV equipment as much as possible.

4. I can't speak to the ceiling fan but if you want powerful but quiet PC fans get Nidec/Scythe Gentle Typhoons. HTPC is recommended. I don't believe in media players/streamers personally.

Will look up.

5. Have not tried cassette ACs in my home, window works well for me. Why do you want a cassette?

Was wondering if I could eliminate a ceiling fan and also get rid of the wall mounted AC with just a cassette AC.
As of now, I wonder how Atmos speakers will work with swirling blades in proximity in a small room.

Regards

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

@Decadent_Spectre @ssf
Haha.
As it so happens, the centre has been resting on top of the sub for the last couple of weeks. (pic attached)
The vocals are clearer than before (when it was wedged in between a smaller stand and the desk.)
What I meant by artificiality is that while earlier the voices sounded natural, but feebler, now they are sounding bolder, but not so natural.
It almost feels like the voices have received a bass boost, if I could explain the experience. More like they are speaking through a husky-boomy machine.

I suspect:
1. This has got nothing to do with the 3 dB level boost I did on the AVR two weeks ago.
2. This has got nothing to with the sub being centred and right under the centre.
(correct me on the above two points if I'm wrong.)

3. Could have something to do with the proximity - the centre has moved a proper foot closer to the LP and I haven't run room correction again.
4. And the reason I asked my doubt: That Xo is set at 100 for all three fronts. I wanted to check if tinkering with the XO only for the Centre, would help.

Thanks a ton for all the suggestions.
Regards

When were the voices sounding natural? What is the difference to the setup between then and now?

What you describe sounds like excess energy from 200-300Hz.

 

[k-pad]

I will graciously step aside and let @Decadent_Spectre handle this one. But a point to note. If you do any changes to placement of speakers or for that matter, furniture in your listening place, it is always advisable to run Audyssey again.

Got it.
I have done soo many changes in all aspects, but haven't re-run Audyssey only cos I live on a main road and it really is difficult to find those few quiet minutes to run it.
Will take some time off in the witching hours and do this first and report back.
Thanks a ton, SSF.

 

[k-pad]

When were the voices sounding natural? What is the difference to the setup between then and now?

When the Center was a foot back, closer to the TV. But feebler than now.

What you describe sounds like excess energy from 200-300Hz.

I suspect it is this range -- there is this breathy, airy addition to the earlier sound. Like an extra audible breath went into speaking the same words.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Thanks, Dec.


I really seem to have missed this. Will check.

It does. All the ACs in the house have their own line.

Will do. Guessing drawing a separate line will help in either case.

I currently use a fairly robust multi-socket console, which hasn't given any trouble. Maybe thinking of getting a multi-meter/voltmeter just to be check for voltage at different times of the day first. And then a stabilizer or a surge protector at some point.
The reason I asked 3 was concern over ensuring clean power to the AV equipment as much as possible.

Will look up.

Was wondering if I could eliminate a ceiling fan and also get rid of the wall mounted AC with just a cassette AC.
As of now, I wonder how Atmos speakers will work with swirling blades in proximity in a small room.

Regards

You could draw more lines but may I ask what you are hoping to accomplish, assuming power requirements are met?

I think this depends on the local electric supply line where you are, if it is troublesome you would need this.

Why do you need a ceiling fan and an AC? Is it redundancy? Or is it because sometimes the fan will suffice? If you require a low power low cooling device such as a fan for times when the AC is not needed then you would probably still require it with a casette. It is best to ask yourself why you need the fan and how the casette will replace both the wall mounted AC and the fan. If it it just for noise purposes then you could get a low noise fan/AC. I would not use Atmos speakers with a fan in close proximity. Also please note that to make full use of surround setups the positioning needs to be optimal to get the full effect. With improper positioning it may not be worth it so please consider your room.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

When the Center was a foot back, closer to the TV. But feebler than now.

I suspect it is this range -- there is this breathy, airy addition to the earlier sound. Like an extra audible breath went into speaking the same words.

While the 200-300Hz range would add the "breathy" part, it would not make it airy.

You could try putting it back in that position and boost the center and see if that works for you?

Alternatively run audyssey or if you have any means to EQ you could pull that range down and experiment.

 

[k-pad]

While the 200-300Hz range would add the "breathy" part, it would not make it airy.

You could try putting it back in that position and boost the center and see if that works for you?

Alternatively run audyssey or if you have any means to EQ you could pull that range down and experiment.

yes will try both: back to its old position and re-running audyssey in current position.
One of those should fix it I guess.
will also try 90 HZ only for centre and see that too.
thanks

 

[k-pad]

You could draw more lines but may I ask what you are hoping to accomplish, assuming power requirements are met?

Keep the AV equipment separate from other home appliances and equipment.

I would not use Atmos speakers with a fan in close proximity.

Exactly what I was worried about.

Also please note that to make full use of surround setups the positioning needs to be optimal to get the full effect.

Working on this. @RajithKumar bhai has been very helpful on this.
will have to figure out a final solution soon.

With improper positioning it may not be worth it so please consider your room.

If nothing works out, will settle on the current 3.1. Already too much joy derived from this set up.
It is just greed, trying to see if I can do at least 5.x.4 in this room.
Changing room, unfortunately will not be possible. small house.

 

[Vintage Musicality]

Hello bro
Nice to read your post, so I have built many systems for people and I can offer you some advice, after listening to very high end brands, I have come to the conclusion that horn with a 12" Pro driver, would give the most outstanding sound unmatched by most brands, majority of what u pay a brand is cost of the cabnit that's where majority of the money goes, so I'm going to. Build a theatre at my relatives house very soon, I was going to get 5 of the pro drivers and compression drivers, if u want you can get some as well, I will give u the whole reciepe on how to make it and if u want I can make it for you as im having a wood shop set up at my house

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

Keep the AV equipment separate from other home appliances and equipment.


Exactly what I was worried about.

Working on this. @RajithKumar bhai has been very helpful on this.
will have to figure out a final solution soon.

If nothing works out, will settle on the current 3.1. Already too much joy derived from this set up.
It is just greed, trying to see if I can do at least 5.x.4 in this room.
Changing room, unfortunately will not be possible. small house.

If that is your goal definitely run extra lines.

I understand, I chose to run a 2.X system. I could put smaller speakers on the sides or ceiling but it wouldn't give me what I want. But then I am a music first guy and 2.X suits me fine for video. If your interested in Atmos, have you read their papers? If I am not mistaken they have some papers on this to help people understand/setup.