HT in a small 10x12 room at around Rs 3.5L

[k-pad]

This is what they suggested within cost - CS160

And then they said this too:
"Yes they do have pivoting tweeters. Although, for Atmos, the speakers should fire straight down."


Kindda what you say...

It's kind of stupid if I don't know what kind of effects overheads bring.
I have only auditioned 5.1s in Bombay.
And the one person I went for audition in a closed space with atmos, I didn't think their set up would work in my small room.

 

[k-pad]

May become a long one soliciting suggestions and advice.

Dear all,
Been passively reading this forum ever since I decided to set up an HT. Trust me I have read so much in the last three months, and now I am left with more questions than when I knew nothing and started over. So, I thought I would share my thoughts here and request suggestions and opinion from the veterans.
Quick details: Room size: 10x12; Aiming to build: 5.1.2; Budget: 3.5L-4L, all incl.

The space:
Like I said, it's a 10x12 room, with concrete floor, and block concrete walls, the long (12') sides of which will be shared with the living room on the one side, and the main bedroom on the other side. Flats above and below.
Have attached drawings of a few options. (Behind the recliners is a small work area. Also, I just saw one of those drawings say Gear Cabinet. It is not to house A/V gear, but motorcycle gear. )

1. The first is a horizontal set up and almost everyone says it is not advisable.
2. The second is a vertical set up, and I did not like the problem the room door was posing.
3. So, got the okay from the home minister for the repositioning the door to open into the living room, so that the TV-LCR wall can be fully utilised. (I have drawn extra rear and ceiling speakers, which will be a later upgrade. So kindly ignore them)

Questions about space:
1. Can I go ahead with the speakers, set up the place and take a leap of faith that the sound will not leave the room - either to the main bedroom or to the neighbour downstairs. (Am a bit of an owl and, besides some 30 minutes of music in the afternoons, mostly play movies late in the night -- not loud, generally at 60ish dB with dynamic sounds touching around 75 dB) The sub I most likely will pick up is the SB Pro 1000.

2. Or should I just blindly spend the first money on sound-proofing the room and then start building the sound system as and when money is available. If I go down this route, could FMs suggest some good, affordable people?
I live in Mumbai, and currently have a rough verbal quote of Rs 550 per square feet including the window and door. (At 636 sq-ft of wall area, the cost comes to 3.5L)

Speakers:
So, I hope to set up a 5.1.2 within a budget of 3.5L with the following rough break-up: 1L for L-R, 30-50K for the centre channel, and 30K each for a pair of surrounds and ceilings, 75K for the sub, and hopefully 80K for the Denon X2700 if I settle on the Klipsch. If the final speaker demands it, then may have to bump up to the X3700.

I decided to go with floorstanders for their obvious advantages and also because commonly available stands bump up the price of any good bookshelf to that of an equivalent floorstander.

The rains have been bonkers in Bombay this month, and with the Covid restrictions, I have only so far listened to the Klipsch RP-4000F and 5000F so far. I quite like them. The main thing I noticed was that when I heard them I did not feel they were as bright as many say. The mid-range and bass were a world better than the RP-4000F. I really liked the RP-5000F. So, it's a definite option.

Once the rains abate and restrictions are lifted, I plan to request demos from sellers in both Bombay and Pune for the following speakers in my budget:
Dali Oberon 5, Paradigm Monitor SE 6000F, the Q Acoustics 3050i, Emotiva T1+, KEF Q550s, and the Focal Chorus 716s. And though it will shred my budget, I also hope to listen to the Martin Logan Motion 20i.

Questions about speakers:
1. Would you all suggest anything else that you personally like in this budget?

Finally, a couple of general questions:
1. Will this set up be an overkill for this room?
2. And, of course, the room sound-proofing, the cost of which will push back the project by a few months. But if it is the only way to ensure peaceful nights for the missus and no complaints from the downstairs neighbours, I will spend this first and look at the rest later.

Thanks in advance and look forward to what I know will be good advice from this forum.

Many people who have supported me have not paid much attention to the horizontal set up.
But I want to tell you all a few things about the Horizontal Set Up:
1. Bass is controlled within the room.
2. It leaks a lot outside the room.
3. As long as your room is not a living room, and you have as much as 18 inch pure concrete between floors, you are sorted.
4. The moment builder says something is is an internal wall, you are fukt.
Please note, all people who are buying off reputed builders.

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Kindda what you say...

Actually, it's what Dolby say: https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/te...atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf (Page 7 of 60)

If the chosen overhead speakers have a wide dispersion pattern (approximately 45 degrees from the acoustical reference axis over the audio band from 100 Hz to 10 kHz or wider), then speakers may be mounted facing directly downward. For speakers with narrower dispersion patterns, those with aimable or angled elements should be angled toward the primary listening position.

It's kind of stupid if I don't know what kind of effects overheads bring.

It's less about what the overheads by themselves do than about what having them adds to the audio. Don't get me wrong. I love cool, visceral overhead effects just as much as the next guy, but there's more to Atmos than that. If you can't enjoy that, Atmos will be pretty disappointing as things stand today in terms of the audio mixes. Perhaps things will improve in the future as far as getting more audio from the overheads. That was my bet anyways when I bought my ceiling speakers.

I have only auditioned 5.1s in Bombay.

Pity. If you're ever down here...

And the one person I went for audition in a closed space with atmos, I didn't think their set up would work in my small room.

It's less about the size of the room and more to do with the angles that you can accommodate. For starters, use Dolby's specs and see where the speakers end up on your ceiling.

 

[k-pad]

Actually, it's what Dolby say: https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/te...atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf (Page 7 of 60)





It's less about what the overheads by themselves do than about what having them adds to the audio. Don't get me wrong. I love cool, visceral overhead effects just as much as the next guy, but there's more to Atmos than that. If you can't enjoy that, Atmos will be pretty disappointing as things stand today in terms of the audio mixes. Perhaps things will improve in the future as far as getting more audio from the overheads. That was my bet anyways when I bought my ceiling speakers.



Pity. If you're ever down here...



It's less about the size of the room and more to do with the angles that you can accommodate. For starters, use Dolby's specs and see where the speakers end up on your ceiling.

Okay, let me rephrase it:
Four speakers or two speaker?
Something overhead can be done in a small room, na, bro? Else I am happy to do only ground level.

Even Rajitjh's set up I have not seen.
Much as you are warning me, two days from now, I gotta be drilling my top wall and putting gypsum ceiling.
You recommend or not in a 12x10x9 room? Plus: - @ankitbhargava @Love4sound '

Ankit has overheads, in-ceilings and L4S has heights.

I for one am gonna be happy if I can put even two overheads. OR NOT.
But I do hope we all can agree upon whether we can do it in a small room.

If experienced FMs besides you say otherwise, I'd consider. But you saying not to do is a bit of a bummer, especially considering how much I rate you.

Which includes you set up also - Am thinking this overhead is overrarated only.

But Since I am doing room today, was thinking, might as well do it.

What say?

 

[k-pad]

Rajitjh's set up I have not seen.
Ankit has overheads, in-ceilings and L4S has heights.

Of course only pix, but if building room today, is it worth leaving it out today?

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Four speakers or two speaker?

Four is better than two.

Something overhead can be done in a small room, na, bro?

Of course.

But you saying not to do is a bit of a bummer

I'm not saying that. Please re-read what I wrote. I specifically said that the size of the room doesn't matter, only the elevation angles of where you can put your overhead speakers does. And that only matters in your case if you're installing 4 speakers. If you're installing only 2, just put them just ahead of your seating, point the tweeters towards your MLP (or not) and call it a day. Enjoy Atmos. If you're installing 4, see where they end up on your ceiling based on a 45 degree elevation (forward and back) and if you can accommodate it. If not, find the smallest elevation angle that will work in your room and check to see if that is within Dolby specs. If it is, put your overheads there and enjoy Atmos.

 

[k-pad]

Four is better than two.



Of course.



I'm not saying that. Please re-read what I wrote. I specifically said that the size of the room doesn't matter, only the elevation angles of where you can put your overhead speakers does. And that only matters in your case if you're installing 4 speakers. If you're installing only 2, just put them just ahead of your seating, point the tweeters towards your MLP (or not) and call it a day. Enjoy Atmos. If you're installing 4, see where they end up on your ceiling based on a 45 degree elevation (forward and back) and if you can accommodate it. If not, find the smallest elevation angle that will work in your room and check to see if that is within Dolby specs. If it is, put your overheads there and enjoy Atmos.

Thanks, bro.
But I do wanna ask: If woofers are facing the floor, and tweeters are facing LP, what's the angle that counts? Woofer angle or tweeter angle?

 

[liverpool_for_life]

Thanks, bro.
But I do wanna ask: If woofers are facing the floor, and tweeters are facing LP, what's the angle that counts? Woofer angle or tweeter angle?

The Dolby specs only talk about the elevation angles. So, the difference between using the woofer vs an angled tweeter to calculate the elevation should not be meaningful. The azimuth is implied by how far apart in width the overhead pair is supposed to be. The Dolby recommendation is for them to be in-line with your mains. This will work out to around .5-.7 times what is effectively the width of your room (assuming in-wall surrounds and that your front LR are at 30 degrees from your MLP). If in-line with your mains gets your overheads to be too close to the sidewalls, feel free to move them inwards (closer together) to give you a better sense of sound coming from above you as opposed to from the sides.

It can seem daunting, trust me. I had a fair amount of questions before my own install and ran into issues even afterwards. When it works though, it is really nice. Just keep your expectations reasonable (as I mentioned in a prior post). Not every mix will be Ford vs Ferrari or Ready Player One.

 

[raghupb]

<snip>
@raghupb @mbhangui what would I do without you two elders! I am not gonna do anything but put some two-core polycab cables only...This is your last chance to stop me. Sorry to be imposing on you!
<snip>

Cool. It'll work fine don't worry.
Cheers,
Raghu

 

[Nitin K]

What! No suggestions for the noob?! Come on people, save me from myself!
Jokes apart, dearest friends, finally moving in, by the way. D Please wish us well.

And as of today, I am favouring a horizontal set up (TV and LCR on long wall) in a small room.

@prateekatasniya @Decadent_Spectre Horizontal set up seems to give me an openness in overall sound after room correction (crisper dialogues at seating position, and greater ambient sound), while allowing me to sit where I want to sit in front of the TV.
This was never the case with the vertical position. So, what are the trade-offs per you?

@Nitin K @amrutmhatre90 Am moving closer to you all bros> Please come over and critique the set up soonest.

@raghupb @mbhangui what would I do without you two elders! I am not gonna do anything but put some two-core polycab cables only...This is your last chance to stop me. Sorry to be imposing on you!

For wellwishers only:
Plan being:
1. TV and LCRs on the long wall.
2. That means the side surrounds are gonna be far out (4 feet on each side from the ear at the least) and I am thinking the dipole/bipole monitor bronze is better than a focused MA45 or 90).
3. Ceiling speakers: C165 (Cheapest MA speakers with pivoting tweeters.)
4. So I am very sure that in my room I can't follow Dolby guidelines.
But I can definitely twist the MA tweeter to listening position. I think the angles don't matter as long as we can pivot the tweeter? Please tell me it is so, @RajithKumar[/USER

Hi K-pad,

If you are liking the horizontal layout better than the vertical then better to settle for this kind of arrangement. The clarity may be due to lesser reflections from the side walls. You only need to ensure the horizontal dispersion on the the off axis is also good if other family members are sitting next to the mlp for movies or music.
This link from Erin's is a good link and pertains to the center channel only. But nevertheless a good watch for understanding.

Happy listening.

Regards,
Nitin

 

[imagineer]

Woofer angle or tweeter angle?

Few in ceiling speakers will give ability to tilt tweeter. There are even fewer which allow woofer to be angled.
Tweeters are highly directional as their frequencies are higher and focussed.
So, you should be good with in ceiling speakers with aimable tweeters. Just check max angle supported and does it come close to your setup.

 

[Donivlapog]

In general horizontal line up is better I think in HT sound-stage. As an Atmos enabled decoder in AVRs are pricey and likelywood of disturbing your upper floor neighbour plus false ceiling costs are avoided.

 

[amrutmhatre90]

+1 @Nitin K with horizontal setup the reflections are less.

@k-pad will be glad to visit you, I too have a horizontal setup and I agree there is a openness with the sound. This is due to less reflections.

I have a 5.1.2 setup at my place, if you want to listen to atmos you can head over. Also how the surrounds are placed, they are 6 feet away. Might clear some of your doubts too.

 

[Nitin K]

+1 @Nitin K with horizontal setup the reflections are less.

@k-pad will be glad to visit you, I too have a horizontal setup and I agree there is a openness with the sound. This is due to less reflections.

I have a 5.1.2 setup at my place, if you want to listen to atmos you can head over. Also how the surrounds are placed, they are 6 feet away. Might clear some of your doubts too.

Unfortunately Amrut, in my case the room has a glass dining table and a fridge in the same room. Hence reflecting a lot of sound and blocking them too.

 

[amrutmhatre90]

Unfortunately Amrut, in my case the room has a glass dining table and a fridge in the same room. Hence reflecting a lot of sound and blocking them too.

Cannot make changes for us wild ones, else house ministers can throw us out. People with dedicated rooms are happy animals

I too have glass tables and stuff.

 

[Love4sound]

Even Rajitjh's set up I have not seen.
Much as you are warning me, two days from now, I gotta be drilling my top wall and putting gypsum ceiling.
You recommend or not in a 12x10x9 room? Plus: - @ankitbhargava @Love4sound '

Ankit has overheads, in-ceilings and L4S has heights.

Mine is not heights but installed in ceilings. I would prefer overheads any day compared to heights.

 

[Decadent_Spectre]

What! No suggestions for the noob?! Come on people, save me from myself!
Jokes apart, dearest friends, finally moving in, by the way. D Please wish us well.

And as of today, I am favouring a horizontal set up (TV and LCR on long wall) in a small room.

@prateekatasniya @Decadent_Spectre Horizontal set up seems to give me an openness in overall sound after room correction (crisper dialogues at seating position, and greater ambient sound), while allowing me to sit where I want to sit in front of the TV.
This was never the case with the vertical position. So, what are the trade-offs per you?

What do you mean by horizontal? Do you mean using the center horizontally rather than vertically?

I say if it works for you then there are no issues, use whatever sounds best to you.

Best wishes

 

[viveshsahu]

May become a long one soliciting suggestions and advice.

Dear all,
Been passively reading this forum ever since I decided to set up an HT. Trust me I have read so much in the last three months, and now I am left with more questions than when I knew nothing and started over. So, I thought I would share my thoughts here and request suggestions and opinion from the veterans.
Quick details: Room size: 10x12; Aiming to build: 5.1.2; Budget: 3.5L-4L, all incl.

The space:
Like I said, it's a 10x12 room, with concrete floor, and block concrete walls, the long (12') sides of which will be shared with the living room on the one side, and the main bedroom on the other side. Flats above and below.
Have attached drawings of a few options. (Behind the recliners is a small work area. Also, I just saw one of those drawings say Gear Cabinet. It is not to house A/V gear, but motorcycle gear. )

1. The first is a horizontal set up and almost everyone says it is not advisable.
2. The second is a vertical set up, and I did not like the problem the room door was posing.
3. So, got the okay from the home minister for the repositioning the door to open into the living room, so that the TV-LCR wall can be fully utilised. (I have drawn extra rear and ceiling speakers, which will be a later upgrade. So kindly ignore them)

Questions about space:
1. Can I go ahead with the speakers, set up the place and take a leap of faith that the sound will not leave the room - either to the main bedroom or to the neighbour downstairs. (Am a bit of an owl and, besides some 30 minutes of music in the afternoons, mostly play movies late in the night -- not loud, generally at 60ish dB with dynamic sounds touching around 75 dB) The sub I most likely will pick up is the SB Pro 1000.

2. Or should I just blindly spend the first money on sound-proofing the room and then start building the sound system as and when money is available. If I go down this route, could FMs suggest some good, affordable people?
I live in Mumbai, and currently have a rough verbal quote of Rs 550 per square feet including the window and door. (At 636 sq-ft of wall area, the cost comes to 3.5L)

Speakers:
So, I hope to set up a 5.1.2 within a budget of 3.5L with the following rough break-up: 1L for L-R, 30-50K for the centre channel, and 30K each for a pair of surrounds and ceilings, 75K for the sub, and hopefully 80K for the Denon X2700 if I settle on the Klipsch. If the final speaker demands it, then may have to bump up to the X3700.

I decided to go with floorstanders for their obvious advantages and also because commonly available stands bump up the price of any good bookshelf to that of an equivalent floorstander.

The rains have been bonkers in Bombay this month, and with the Covid restrictions, I have only so far listened to the Klipsch RP-4000F and 5000F so far. I quite like them. The main thing I noticed was that when I heard them I did not feel they were as bright as many say. The mid-range and bass were a world better than the RP-4000F. I really liked the RP-5000F. So, it's a definite option.

Once the rains abate and restrictions are lifted, I plan to request demos from sellers in both Bombay and Pune for the following speakers in my budget:
Dali Oberon 5, Paradigm Monitor SE 6000F, the Q Acoustics 3050i, Emotiva T1+, KEF Q550s, and the Focal Chorus 716s. And though it will shred my budget, I also hope to listen to the Martin Logan Motion 20i.

Questions about speakers:
1. Would you all suggest anything else that you personally like in this budget?

Finally, a couple of general questions:
1. Will this set up be an overkill for this room?
2. And, of course, the room sound-proofing, the cost of which will push back the project by a few months. But if it is the only way to ensure peaceful nights for the missus and no complaints from the downstairs neighbours, I will spend this first and look at the rest later.

Thanks in advance and look forward to what I know will be good advice from this forum.

If your budget allows you try to go for 5.1.4 or even better 7.1.4 speaker configuration. I have seen few videos on youtube where experts recommend for atleast 4 atmos speaker as all the atmos mixing is done for 7.1.4 configuration as base.

 

[k-pad]

Actually, it's what Dolby say: https://www.dolby.com/siteassets/te...atmos-installation-guidelines-121318_r3.1.pdf (Page 7 of 60)

Thank you so much for this. This was exactly what I was looking for.

 

[k-pad]

Four is better than two.



Of course.



I'm not saying that. Please re-read what I wrote. I specifically said that the size of the room doesn't matter, only the elevation angles of where you can put your overhead speakers does. And that only matters in your case if you're installing 4 speakers. If you're installing only 2, just put them just ahead of your seating, point the tweeters towards your MLP (or not) and call it a day. Enjoy Atmos. If you're installing 4, see where they end up on your ceiling based on a 45 degree elevation (forward and back) and if you can accommodate it. If not, find the smallest elevation angle that will work in your room and check to see if that is within Dolby specs. If it is, put your overheads there and enjoy Atmos.

@ankitbhargava @liverpool_for_life What's the consensus on having one overhead and one height (9ft)?
Ankit, did you finish your set up?