My Audio gear dilemma

[firearm12]

1) I hope you switched the amp to Speaker A+B when you connected sub to B. Sometimes we can overlook these things.

Yes, I switched to A+B but felt bass became weaker than before or maybe my ears made this up.

2) only one rca will send only one channel's bass to the sub. That's very wrong for stereo. Y-cable is the correct way if using pre outs. Remember integrated is not sending a summed LFE like an avr.

Just read out your other reply and now I also think its not possible to sum up the L and R preouts. Only option remaining is to add a new sub to R preout. But I dont think I need that much bass. I look only to fill up music, so subtle bass is needed, maybe will revert back to high level outputs from terminal B to sub.

Against common opinion, I will advise you to once place the sub in the middle of two speakers out in the room (away from walls). See how it goes.

I can try this but my wife can kill me if she finds subwoofer in the middle of room.

 

[aashish351]

Some posts on the point in doubt:
http://www.hifivision.com/amplifiers/12353-connecting-subwoofer-2-channel-integrated-pre-out-2.html

A direct reply on another forum post: "when these right and left inputs are fed into a powered sub, before they are fed to the crossover and power amp, they go through a special* circuit that combines the two channels into a mono signal for the sub and still maintains isolation for the the two channels for the rest of the signal chain. It's a bit more complex than a simple "Y" connector." from here: Connecting RCA out from amp to LFE input on Sub ?

 

[aashish351]

I can try this but my wife can kill me if she finds subwoofer in the middle of room.

It's a risk worth taking!

On a serious note, it's just a trial. You can then also try it close to the wall but keep it somewhere between the two speakers, if that is more conducive to your well-being , and sounds better than a corner.

 

[firearm12]

Some posts on the point in doubt:
http://www.hifivision.com/amplifiers/12353-connecting-subwoofer-2-channel-integrated-pre-out-2.html

A direct reply on another forum post: "when these right and left inputs are fed into a powered sub, before they are fed to the crossover and power amp, they go through a special* circuit that combines the two channels into a mono signal for the sub and still maintains isolation for the the two channels for the rest of the signal chain. It's a bit more complex than a simple "Y" connector." from here: Connecting RCA out from amp to LFE input on Sub ?

Looks confusing, someone says that a Y cable can be used, other says it will short and cause everything to go to mono. Below reply from above link says he has connected single pre out and its hard to find anything missing. I also felt the same way when I connected a single pre-out.

"If I take a L-R into one (y-cable) to the sub, it somehow shorts all output regardless of the source or whether it's pre out 1 or 2. My mains turn mono and 1 volume pot controls both. With my sub, I am forced to just run a single pre out L or R to the sub. You would be hard pressed to tell me anything is missing."

 

[mpw]

my sub is in in the middle of the room near my right speaker..

also check the phase switch on the sub.... flip it and try.. there is no right or wrong with the phase switch... just what works for your room.

do try the interconnects if you can or maybe a dedicated dac..

 

[firearm12]

I did a couple of changes after which I can feel that sound is improved. I ran the arcam rlink from 6V battery and it really made a difference in sound quality. I also set the phase switch to negative (earlier it was positive), and it now supplements the main speakers much better than before. Upgrading my dac will be next step. I am also thinking on getting dedicated stands for the speakers. Does anyone have idea how much difference can stands make? Currents both speakers are kept on a long wooden cabinet.

 

[mpw]

firearm12,

stands - why didnt you mention this before ?? Please put them on stands - this will make a lot of difference. I have been thru 3 different stands with 3 different standmounts and i can feel the difference.

phase on negative - good move. dont worry about it as long as it sounds good to your ears.

DAC - thats a personal choice based on budget and taste. I suggest get the stands done and then take a call..

For speaker stands - FM Magma can be contacted at Home - SoundFoundations

the Menuets are light speakers so they dont need too heavy a stand - go for something that compliments your decor as well - from the various available.

There was a pair on sale in delhi too if i remember.

PS ; Thats one reason i asked for a picture and not a drawing..

 

[jls001]

3) Listening at low volume does not sound enriching. I need to step up volume to make the sound better whereas I like to listen in low volumes. I dont know why its like that.

This is typical of most audio setups - there is a minimum threshold of volume below which the music doesn't sound good.

There are just a handful of speakers that don't lose resolution and musicality even at low volume. One that comes to mind is Quad ESLs. Another is the Dynaudio Evidence Signature.

Try listening nearfield and you may be new surprised at the new-found intimacy and improved resolution even at lower volume.

Also please try repositioning your speakers. Try, try again. You'll get the greatest gains from it.

 

[firearm12]

Pulled the trigger and ordered a pair of soundfoundations nemisis stands. These will be shipped on Monday. Lets see how it goes. Fingers crossed.

 

[krishtrinity]

Hello Guys,


I didn't have much experience in hifi and prepared my first setup about a year ago. Much of the gear I got was sourced used/second hand. I have listened to this setup extensively for an year but now I am in a big dilemma to find the weakest link in this setup to upgrade. My gear and audio flow is as follows.

Foobar (PC usb) -> Asus Xonar U7 (SPDIF out) -> Arcam rlink DAC (analog Line out)-> Marantz PM8003

Then Marantz amp is connected to Dali Mentor Menuet bookshelf Speakers. Due to lack of bass, I added later an Elac SUB 111.2 ESP subwoofer (speaker level input).


My collection is all FLAC/mp3 files. I listen to folk/rock songs of 60s-70s and Bollywood songs old and new, also some classical Indian music

The sound signature is generally warm,dark and with a good staging and airy sound. Its as per my like. Below are my my concerns


1) sometimes the bass is just non-existent in songs, especially bollywood 90s songs. For same songs, my bose sounddock produces good bass.
2) the setup sounds fine if the song has less instruments in it e.g. folk/instrumental songs, but becomes all muddled up as I move it to more rock based songs. All the bass/vocals/instuments gets mixed.
3) Listening at low volume does not sound enriching. I need to step up volume to make the sound better whereas I like to listen in low volumes. I dont know why its like that.

Considering my lack of hifi knowledge, can anyone please guide me and suggest if I can get some relief by upgrading DAC/speaker/amp. Can this be a result of these different hardware not gelling together. I am ready to upgrade but dont know what to upgrade in the chain and if it would benefit me or not. Can these issues be solved by using a higher grade DAC than arcam rlink. What DAC is recommended for upgradation. Or shall I attribute these issues are to low quality recordings.

i have used xonar u7 soundcard and it's definitely an average soundcard mainly intended for gaming,i sold mine a long time ago because i was not statisfied even for headphone use.I suggest you go for schiit modi DAC which i am using with marantz pm5004.It is well known and the only DAC you ever need.

 

[firearm12]

i have used xonar u7 soundcard and it's definitely an average soundcard mainly intended for gaming,i sold mine a long time ago because i was not statisfied even for headphone use.I suggest you go for schiit modi DAC which i am using with marantz pm5004.It is well known and the only DAC you ever need.

I know U7 is average, I am using is as USB-spdif converter and then using Arcam rlink as actual DAC which is connected to the amp. I am not sure how much value will Schiit Modi add as replacement for rlink though I am considering to get a DAC which can be directly connected to amp through USB (thus bypassing U7)

 

[krishtrinity]

I know U7 is average, I am using is as USB-spdif converter and then using Arcam rlink as actual DAC which is connected to the amp. I am not sure how much value will Schiit Modi add as replacement for rlink though I am considering to get a DAC which can be directly connected to amp through USB (thus bypassing U7)

I think removing the U7 from the setup is good choice,my suggestion is that you go direct DAC to computer by usb.I highly recommend schiit modi or it's higher end models,it's cheap too for about 7000rs you can ship it from USA by post.The benifit of higher end DAC according to experts is up for debate and it's always best to give more importance to speakers and amplifier.Also recommend you checkout jriver media center i prever jriver over foobar.

 

[magma]

preth if you can hear the sub as a differnet entity
youre already one step ahead of most beginners

now youre playing a differnt game

its very difficult to integrate a sub (or a couple )
its easier to buy speakers that you are happy with the bass

sealed subs are sometimes easier to interate
i normally run them at only under 10% and crossover only below 60Hz

the elac has a nice sub that autocalibirates with the room
not cheap
but its really good and has some good tricks up its sleeeve

 

[firearm12]

Does adding a sub help in music? I tried, but I had to keep changing the cross over frequency settings for different songs, otherwise the bass goes in one direction and the other frequencies goes another way. The only sub that does music very well is the the Bose Am5 IMHO. Dali is notorious for its no bass attitude. I bought a Dali Ikon 2 and had to sell off at a loss because of no bass.

I believe adding a sub to your system helps if one is willing to search for the advantages of adding it instead of having a list of expectations from sub. What I mean to say is that we may not hear what we expect from a sub but that's not that very bad. Key is to know what to listen from a sub.

True sometimes it feels that the crossover/volume depends on the song that is playing and there cannot be one set crossover frequency for whole range of songs. One big factor to be mentioned here is the recording quality of the song that is being played. No two songs are recorded equally, so no speaker/subwoofer can render all the songs equal. Bass being low frequency is most affected by this.

I try to set up my sub so that if I try to trun off the speakers and run only sub, then vocals are not heard. What is heard is the real low bass frequencies that can only be electronically produced. thats what a subwoofer is for. Its not made for producing drum beats clinically. e.g. Just hear to the fine bass lines in the songs of "Drishyam" movie. Thats what a sub should do in my opinion, the thumping and pumping is not that much important. It should just fill the vacuum like filling in the blanks. Hearing by ear is more important than going by speaker manufacturer crossover rating. I just found out that 40 hz was more suitable to my liking. A sub should not be heard, but it certainly should be felt if its turned off. Thats the key for me. Other then that, a good sub should be fast enough to catch up with speakers. Surely there are disadvantages, but I have found some advantages also with it. Maybe my thinking will change with time, who knows. It also depends on one's musical preferences, like I prefer soft notes with soft bass which is easy on ears rather hard bass hitting my head every time. Menuets are such a gem for easy listening.

PS: These are only my opinions (no audiophile kind) for a sub and many fellow members may disagree. Maybe I am now used to hearing my sub

 

[firearm12]

Yesterday, I replaced the U7 with an old M-audio Fast track Pro (a USB recorder that can also act as USB->spdif converter) and wow, it was a drastic change. Suddenly decay of instruments got more rounded and bass more attacking and controlled. Soundstage and overall clarity also improved. All music is just sounding more analog now. Seems like Fast track pro has much better electronics than Asus U7 to convert to spdif. I never thought that changing digital source like an spdif converter can make so much effect. I am still wondering how could this kind of change can affect sound quality when the signal output is supposed to be digital from both U7 and Fast Track pro. Certainly finding a dedicated USB DAC will be next step for me.

 

[mpw]

it is the source all along...

keep trying..

and the stands will do their bit as well..

 

[firearm12]

Finally, the stands arrived today Have set them up. As warned by an FM, these are a little big for menuets, but I am ok. The stands are very heavy and well made to last for decades. Yet to experiment with position but initial observations show that sound stage has suddenly got improved dramatically, certainly more deeper and wider than before. Good going for now.

 

[aashish351]

Is your subwoofer without any feet or does it just look like that in the photo?

If they are without feet, please add some isolation immediately!

 

[mpw]

hang up a nice big canvas painting on the wall behind the laptop or use some absorption panels.

Canvas painting will be nice... do not cover the frame with glass

you are among the lucky ones to not have a TV in-between the speakers.

Magma should be able to help you with the rubber feet for the subwoofer.

The stands look nice. I used to have these before.

If you are happy with the sound with these 2 things suggested - done try to stretch too far as the law of diminishing returns sets in.

wish you many hours of good music !

PS : do check if your amp gets enough ventilation. You may consider placing the amp on the top shelf too.

 

[firearm12]

Is your subwoofer without any feet or does it just look like that in the photo?

If they are without feet, please add some isolation immediately!

Sub is standing on 4 rubber feet which came with it.