My intro and request for guidance and advice

[Analogous]

Hi Dev. Each of those experimental changes can potentially lead to improvements in sound, but it can be a long journey. I am still not clear what’s the ‘magic’ you are missing. Is it the openness? The floating of higher frequencies? Or the microtones and hence nuances in the singing? Or the timing (faster bass)? Or the immediacy? Any or all of these (and some other aspects) can be magical to the ears. And depending on which of these you find missing, you could carefully narrow down on the speaker cable, ICs and power supply to try out. I’d also add the jumper cable (from woofer to tweeter if not biwired) as well as equipment isolations to the list. Over the last couple of years I have been through all these, with gradual and sometimes spectacular improvements, finally reaching the point where I feel eager and delighted to put in each CD in the system. Your journey might not be as long, and it may be just one or two of these things that could do the magic for you.

Another factor here could also be your choice of amplifier. The Primare sound is very peculiar. I have tried the A30.2 in my system and found it to be what I’d call a very correct (nothing is really suppressed), but cold sound. It didn’t warm my heart like my (much cheaper) Audiolab 8200A does for me. I missed the emotionality significantly. Also on subsequent reading on the net, I realised that is a characteristic of Primare sound. Some love it, while others, though maintaining high respect for what it does (like I do), don’t go for it. I do not know how your speakers are. But I’ve heard the Primare played with Energy speakers, which were very bright and energetic and they kind of complemented better.

It’s quite possible that the Primare sound is perfect for your listening preference. But may be you could reconfirm that before you embark on the long journey of optimising your rig. By trying your speakers with other comparable amplifiers with different signature if you could borrow them from friends/fellow FMs?

Hi Sachin,
Thanks!
I think you are right. I have struggled to describe what’s missing in my set u. The word “magical” is imprecise and confusin. But I am less eager to listen than I was before I started with the Primare+Triton 3 combination. Also my listening sessions are much shorter. I did take some days off in between, but it was the same when I returned.
I am going the speaker power cables, power supply upgrade route now.

Since you have been down this path, In your experience which of these helped make a noticeable difference?

i am putting off the conclusion that it’s the Primare sound that may not be to my liking for now As I got the i32 recently.
I still have my old Peachtree Nova and will try it out.

 

[rikhav]

Hi Sachin,
I think you are right. I have struggled to describe what’s missing in my set u. The word “magical” is imprecise and confusin. But I am less eager to listen than I was before I started with the Primare+Triton 3 combination. Also my listening sessions are much shorter. I did take some days off in between, but it was the same when I returned.
I am

At times more accurate and clinical setup leads to listening fatigue due to various reasons.
Basically it's not easy on the ears.

There are many high end setups which will throw all the details but still not be difficult on the ears. But that's a discussion for future

So can you relate that to your setup?
Which is sort of making you just listen to music for less duration?

 

[aeroash]

I still have my old Peachtree Nova and will try it out.

1. Try your Peachtree, first.
2. Borrow cables from your friendly neighbourhood FMs, if possible, and see if the sound is to your liking.
3. Remove the Speaker Screen and see if that makes a difference.

Is it possible that the LS50 projected sound better into the room, and that is what you're missing? When you say underwhelming, could it mean that it sounds 'tied-in', 'recessed'?

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Hi Sachin,
Thanks!
I think you are right. I have struggled to describe what’s missing in my set u. The word “magical” is imprecise and confusin. But I am less eager to listen than I was before I started with the Primare+Triton 3 combination. Also my listening sessions are much shorter. I did take some days off in between, but it was the same when I returned.
I am going the speaker power cables, power supply upgrade route now.

Since you have been down this path, In your experience which of these helped make a noticeable difference?

i am putting off the conclusion that it’s the Primare sound that may not be to my liking for now As I got the i32 recently.
I still have my old Peachtree Nova and will try it out.

Trying the Peachtree (is it’s powerful enough to drive the new speakers) couid be a useful start. At least you can get the equipment out of the way (one way or another) and then focus upon the accessories.

Since you asked, my biggest differences came from the speaker cable (but then I was lucky to get a truly awesome cable), the equipment isolations, and power cables in that order. The IC changes brought about smaller changes in comparison (in fact I actually went down from well known brands to simpler but more open ICs). But I’d be wary in suggesting that the same would apply to other systems. Different changes might work out for you. Also let me point out that the essential character of my set of equipment remained the same, it was just the quality of sound that kept improving with these changes. I’d in fact say that these changes (I call them optimisations) actually helped the inherent potential in my equipment chain to manifest better.

 

[ravikumar-rotel]

Hi, I am Dev. I live in Bangalore. I am interested in good quality audio and music.

I I have recently upgraded to the Primare i32 integrated amp and Goldenear Triton 3 Towers. The magic I was expecting has not happene. I am feeding hi res (FLAC) using a AK70 DAP and my listening/sitting room is @ 30’x30’. The speakers are about 2’ from the back wall, 6’ apart and slightly toed in. i would be grateful for any suggestions and guidance on ways to improve the SQ.
I live in Bangalore (near Belandur signal and Sarjapur road) If you live nearby, you are most welcome to visit for a chat and chai.
Thanks in advance

the amp/speaker match isn't great. You are trying to power your speakers which are rated at 400watts @ 8 Ohms, with an integrated amp thats rated at 120w @ 8Ohms.

Please remember to understand the nature of the speakers and amp in terms of the sound signature, thats where matching happens, not to forget the DAC in this chain.

Am not sure on what basis you choose the speakers and the amp/DAC/CD PLAYER. if you could elaborate on that we could help you and figure out what else could have gone wrong.

 

[Analogous]

Hi Ravi Kumar,
yes it’s possible I made a mistake in matching. The manual says “Recommended amplification 20-400 watts”
in your calculations did you factor in the SW section of each speaker is powered independently?
in use it seems to drive them easily.I use a AK70 DAP as Transport and occasionally add my Chord Mojo in the chain.
thanks for asking the question on matching the amp and speakers. I just went by the recommended amplification of the speakers. I am confused by the number of variables that seem to go into calculating this. I understand having some extra Power on tap is good, but too much power can damage, as also too little power for the rated impedance of the speakers.

Trying the Peachtree (is it’s powerful enough to drive the new speakers) couid be a useful start. At least you can get the equipment out of the way (one way or another) and then focus upon the accessories.

Since you asked, my biggest differences came from the speaker cable (but then I was lucky to get a truly awesome cable), the equipment isolations, and power cables in that order. The IC changes brought about smaller changes in comparison (in fact I actually went down from well known brands to simpler but more open ICs). But I’d be wary in suggesting that the same would apply to other systems. Different changes might work out for you. Also let me point out that the essential character of my set of equipment remained the same, it was just the quality of sound that kept improving with these changes. I’d in fact say that these changes (I call them optimisations) actually helped the inherent potential in my equipment chain to manifest better.

Thanks Sachin.
i am starting with better power cables followed by a balanced power supply unit. I am using Chord speaker cables (£20/ mete) terminated with banana plugs. They are not expensive but have some sort of shielding. Hopefully with the additions mentioned above I will start seeing some incremental changes too.
it is a interesting journey.

 

[aeroash]

the amp/speaker match isn't great. You are trying to power your speakers which are rated at 400watts @ 8 Ohms, with an integrated amp thats rated at 120w @ 8Ohms.

Please remember to understand the nature of the speakers and amp in terms of the sound signature, thats where matching happens, not to forget the DAC in this chain.

Am not sure on what basis you choose the speakers and the amp/DAC/CD PLAYER. if you could elaborate on that we could help you and figure out what else could have gone wrong.

What should the amplifier rating be when the recommended speaker amplification is 20-400w? please enlighten

 

[ravikumar-rotel]

atleast something at 500 watts @ 8 ohms with a head room of 50 watts..
or monoblocks.. Though their sensitivity is 91 db, powerful amps are necessary to get what u r missing..
Did you choose 400w based on your room or any other specific reason?

 

[jls001]

But I’d be wary in suggesting that the same would apply to other systems. Different changes might work out for you.

This is a great piece of advice. System matching, sonic preference, etc matters more.

 

[Analogous]

Hi Ravi Kumar,
yes it’s possible I made a mistake in matching. The manual says “Recommended amplification 20-400 watts”
in your calculations did you factor in the SW section of each speaker is powered independently?
in use it seems to drive them easily.

Sorry, forgot to add: I use a AK70 DAP as Transport and occasionally add my Chord Mojo in the chain.
thanks for asking the question on matching the amp and speakers. I just went by the recommended amplification of the speakers. I am confused by the number of variables that seem to go into calculating this. I understand having some extra Power on tap is good, but too much power can damage, as also too little power for the rated impedance of the speakers.

atleast something at 500 watts @ 8 ohms with a head room of 50 watts..
or monoblocks.. Though their sensitivity is 91 db, powerful amps are necessary to get what u r missing..
Did you choose 400w based on your room or any other specific reason?

Actually, when I chose these speakers I noticed the 20-400 w range and the 91 dB sensitivity in the specs and thought this will do. Was this a mistake? would 400 watts power in my living room which is 30x30’ be too much? Would a amp with more output wattage make this speaker sound better?

 

[ravikumar-rotel]

Sorry, forgot to add: I use a AK70 DAP as Transport and occasionally add my Chord Mojo in the chain.
thanks for asking the question on matching the amp and speakers. I just went by the recommended amplification of the speakers. I am confused by the number of variables that seem to go into calculating this. I understand having some extra Power on tap is good, but too much power can damage, as also too little power for the rated impedance of the speakers.

Actually, when I chose these speakers I noticed the 20-400 w range and the 91 dB sensitivity in the specs and thought this will do. Was this a mistake? would 400 watts power in my living room which is 30x30’ be too much? Would a amp with more output wattage make this speaker sound better?

The biggest challenge is hifi is mixing and matching gear maintaining synergy and finally achieving what your ears have been craving for. You have absolutely not done a mistake and this is a natural process most of us have gone through in this journey.

Room acoustics in my personal opinion is the first and the foremost import thing, which is why gears that sound extremely good at the dealers audition room, might most of the times will sound different/unsatisfying when you played it at your place.
There are lots of discussions on that available.

The thumb rule in choosing an amp to drive your speakers is normally(its subjective again) is to have more power in the amp section than your speaker wattage/load, to address and serve the music peak demands of the speaker which results in sweet quality even at low volumes...
Having more power is always safe and better since you have control your volume levels, than having a low powered amp trying to power your speakers which are power hungry resulting is sending out distortion when u turn that volume high due to the lack of that sweetness..
Less power is more dangerous than more power.
Some amp manufactures rate their amps very low on wattage, but are very high current and can drive any speakers with varied low impedance.

Specs are one side of it, the other side is matching amps and speakers. For example, If your amp is on the brighter side and you add a brighter amp, its gonna not provide you favourable results..

At a later stage speaker Cables, power cables and interconnects matter when you have a very good revealing system. any small changes to thme will show up in the output..

These are my personal opinions and its difficult to post everything i know here too, and of course there are many experts more knowledgeable than me here in hifi vision who could through more information on this.

 

[Analogous]

The biggest challenge is hifi is mixing and matching gear maintaining synergy and finally achieving what your ears have been craving for. You have absolutely not done a mistake and this is a natural process most of us have gone through in this journey.

Room acoustics in my personal opinion is the first and the foremost import thing, which is why gears that sound extremely good at the dealers audition room, might most of the times will sound different/unsatisfying when you played it at your place.
There are lots of discussions on that available.

The thumb rule in choosing an amp to drive your speakers is normally(its subjective again) is to have more power in the amp section than your speaker wattage/load, to address and serve the music peak demands of the speaker which results in sweet quality even at low volumes...
Having more power is always safe and better since you have control your volume levels, than having a low powered amp trying to power your speakers which are power hungry resulting is sending out distortion when u turn that volume high due to the lack of that sweetness..
Less power is more dangerous than more power.
Some amp manufactures rate their amps very low on wattage, but are very high current and can drive any speakers with varied low impedance.

Specs are one side of it, the other side is matching amps and speakers. For example, If your amp is on the brighter side and you add a brighter amp, its gonna not provide you favourable results..

At a later stage speaker Cables, power cables and interconnects matter when you have a very good revealing system. any small changes to thme will show up in the output..

These are my personal opinions and its difficult to post everything i know here too, and of course there are many experts more knowledgeable than me here in hifi vision who could through more information on this.

Thanks Ravi. Lots of good information and food for thought.

Hi Dev. Each of those experimental changes can potentially lead to improvements in sound, but it can be a long journey. I am still not clear what’s the ‘magic’ you are missing. Is it the openness? The floating of higher frequencies? Or the microtones and hence nuances in the singing? Or the timing (faster bass)? Or the immediacy? Any or all of these (and some other aspects) can be magical to the ears. And depending on which of these you find missing, you could carefully narrow down on the speaker cable, ICs and power supply to try out. I’d also add the jumper cable (from woofer to tweeter if not biwired) as well as equipment isolations to the list. Over the last couple of years I have been through all these, with gradual and sometimes spectacular improvements, finally reaching the point where I feel eager and delighted to put in each CD in the system. Your journey might not be as long, and it may be just one or two of these things that could do the magic for you.

Another factor here could also be your choice of amplifier. The Primare sound is very peculiar. I have tried the A30.2 in my system and found it to be what I’d call a very correct (nothing is really suppressed), but cold sound. It didn’t warm my heart like my (much cheaper) Audiolab 8200A does for me. I missed the emotionality significantly. Also on subsequent reading on the net, I realised that is a characteristic of Primare sound. Some love it, while others, though maintaining high respect for what it does (like I do), don’t go for it. I do not know how your speakers are. But I’ve heard the Primare played with Energy speakers, which were very bright and energetic and they kind of complemented better.

It’s quite possible that the Primare sound is perfect for your listening preference. But may be you could reconfirm that before you embark on the long journey of optimising your rig. By trying your speakers with other comparable amplifiers with different signature if you could borrow them from friends/fellow FMs?

Hi Ravi,
I was going through your post again, particularly your description of the Primare house sound. I think you are right. It's technically correct, but unemotional. I will have to reconsider my choice of the Primare. It's not even 2 months old. Any suggestions on what would be a better match (within 1 lakh) for the Triton 3?

 

[Deleted member 15865]

Hi Ravi,
I was going through your post again, particularly your description of the Primare house sound. I think you are right. It's technically correct, but unemotional. I will have to reconsider my choice of the Primare. It's not even 2 months old. Any suggestions on what would be a better match (within 1 lakh) for the Triton 3?

That was me. Glad that you were able to locate the issue. FMs who know these speakers well might have better suggestions on capable amplifier that matches them. But ensure that you shortlist musical/emotional sounding amplifiers (than merely detailed and analytical) as that’s your preference. Also, as a possible salvaging strategy, would you like to check if adding a tube interference with the Primare helps bring back some emotionality/magic (if the power isn’t an issue)? You could borrow from a FM in your Bangalore to try out before putting down the money.

 

[Analogous]

Thank you. I will definitely keep these suggestions in mind.

I will post a question on the forum to ask other Triton 3 owners about amp matching

 

[Analogous]

Hi everone,
Hope you all are keeping safe and making the most of this period.
I am enjoying my music, rediscovering and grateful that I have this in my life.
i was wondering: is it just me or has something changed audio playback quality since the lockdown began?
less noise all around....industry shutdown and hence cleaner power...Fewer distractions for better attention and focus on the music...

 

[firearm12]

Hi everone,
Hope you all are keeping safe and making the most of this period.
I am enjoying my music, rediscovering and grateful that I have this in my life.
i was wondering: is it just me or has something changed audio playback quality since the lockdown began?
less noise all around....industry shutdown and hence cleaner power...Fewer distractions for better attention and focus on the music...

I thinks its more to do with mind. Dont know if its true for you but people now dont have pressures of going to office next day these days and they feel more cozy and comfortable at home, ofcourse less outside traffic noise having most effect. I am not sure about electricity effect.

 

[raptor77]

@Goldenears, you seem to have a fairly large room at 30' x 30' - compared to the typical apartment life I have been used to! And if I can take the liberty, I think you need more power or larger speakers. Power because your speakers can handle about twice what you're feeding them right now. This is a pure guess but maybe the magic you're referring to is a large soundstage and presence? Could it be that the tweeters and mid/bass drivers are not high enough for your listening position?

Plus, these are things that you can test - by borrowing a different amp from someone or raising the height of your speakers? This might be a quicker (and cheaper) first step than buying new components.

Let us know how it goes...

 

[Analogous]

Hi Raptor77,
the dimensions of the room are problematic as I understand square shaped rooms are not good acoustically.
Other FMs have also suggested several solutions inclu more power, upgrade of cables, power supply and speaker placeme. I did upgrade the power cables, added spikes and experimented with placement (a lot)
I am happy to say I have some very good improvement in the sound
unfortunately I can’t afford to buy new more powerful amplification at the moment

I will see if it’s possible to borrow a different amp Locally
Thanks for the suggestions
Edit:
I came across this:

snake oil or some truth to this?

 

[firearm12]

I came across this:

snake oil or some truth to this?

Yea, i dont know if Paul over exaggerates in the video to sell his stuff but its true factually. @mpw once said to me electricity is the blood of the system, and more experience i have more i seem to acknowledge the same. Personally i feel my system starts to sound really better at about 11pm in the night. 6pm to 10pm is the worse time.

 

[Analogous]

Hello everyone,
Hope you are all keeping healthy and happy.
I thought I should share an update, as this thread is three pages and you have generously shared your time and suggestions.

To make a long story short:
i sold the Primare and Tritons and am now using a Hegel H300 and a pair of Adam Audio Pencil mk3.
i have my music on a HDD playing through Swara DAC (Acoustic Portrait) using Runeaudio.
The cable upgrades, positioning, spikes, power and other very practical suggestions I got from you all have helped. Thank you again.

I now have the best sound I ever had (in my home). Long enjoyable listening sessions, No listening fatigue and a great feeling getting reacquainted with my music collection. Some very poorly recorded or very compressed music does sound bad (as it should?) But overall, I am very happy.

looking back, I this is what I think I learned:
Amp and speaker matching is a matter of luck, though some knowledge of technicalities involved can help shortlist better- (Sensitivity, output Power, impedance matching etc)
I learnt Auditioning and listening for myself in my listening space, (alone) is the best way to decide (though this is rarely practical, unfortunately).
i learnt if I am careful but take calculated risks, it’s possible to get fantastic value from preowned audio components. There are far more honest people than dishonest ones around.
I learnt I love the ease and convenience of browsing through my music collection and playback using my iPad or phone.
I learnt short signal paths are simpler and good.
I learnt Raspberry Pi based music playback can be with very good audio quality. I am glad I took a leap of faith even though I am not a computer or electronics expert.
I am grateful for the music, everyday.

Thank you for reading and your patience.