My New TT : The Cello from Scheu Analog

[Asit]

Bluu,
Just because based on my experience and/or reasoning (scientific or otherwise) I have an opinion on something does not mean that my opinion is correct. You know what Galileo said? He said if you find the results of your observation to tally with your reasoning or belief, test it again and again until it is beyond doubt. I am obviously not good enough to even tie shoelaces for Galileo, but every time I have a new audio equipment or a cable, I keep an ear for any change I hear as time passes.

The reason I do not want arguments over it, is because there is a chance of derailment of this thread where some of the discussion is quite charming, and secondly there is a danger that very soon somebody's feelings get hurt (I have seen in the past that discussion on cables and burn-in somehow ignites the fire in everybody). This should be a happy thread, and one where all of us can learn from each other.

I of course do not take it seriously when you say you are jealous. Believe me, when I went to the US as graduate student in 1981, I bought myself a USD30 GE cassette player to play a few cassettes I brought along from India, and I was so happy to have my own personal little machine. Ultimately, it's music and our happiness with whatever we have (more spiritually than materially).

Let's get back to the Cello and all the interesting discussion on string theory or whatever else .

Regards.

 

[gee_john]

Pics please !

 

[Asit]

Pictures are on page 5, John.
Regards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Burn in is not something I'd argue against. I have absolutely no idea of the physics of it. I have no problem with the "burn in" of moving parts.

Let's get back to the Cello and all the interesting discussion on string theory or whatever else

Indeed

Just thought I'd answer your question, but won't stray further from the topic as it applies to turntables. Am I right about the cartridge, whichever terminology one chooses?

 

[Bluu]

I keep an ear for any change I hear as time passes.

The reason I do not want arguments over it, is because there is a chance of derailment of this thread where some of the discussion is quite charming, and secondly there is a danger that very soon somebody's feelings get hurt.

Very well said sir!

Believe me, when I went to the US as graduate student in 1981.

Whoa. My parents met in 1981.

Let's get back to the Cello and all the interesting discussion on string theory or whatever else

I had read a thread on a different forum where a member updated the ownership thread regularly for more than two years. I request you do the same with this thread. Especially as the cart wears in and also on how the Cello sounds over time.

 

[prem]

Hi Asit

1942 Love Story, Dil To Paagal Hai, Hum Aapke Hain Kaun, Mohabatein, Darr and Dilwale Dulhaniya from Saregama are decent to good. The rest you can avoid. For Silsila, get the original old issue

 

[venkatcr]

I am surprised that such a well regarded and expensive TT should depend on a loosely hand knotted string for basic transportation. I am quite sure the tension on the string will affect the speed of the platter. I am also sure a nylon thread can be fabricated of high quality that will keep it's tension and diameter for some time, and then need to be replaced. A better method would be a geared nylon belt very similar to what is used for radiators in cars. That would guarantee a perfect speed as the gears would decide the rotation speed of the platter.

I don't remember ever having seen such a method used in TTs. It is either direct drive or string driven.

Cheers

 

[dillihifi]

Many expensive and well regarded TTs are belt driven and in the instant case a nylon string replaces the belt as some argue that the belt is more prone to expansion and contraction. Using gears in the belt will tend to transfer the vibrations of the motor and platter vice versa. Either it is a direct drive where the platter is coupled to the platter (generally used where pitch control is required e.g for Djaying) or it is belt driven or idler driven. I do not think this is bad as only one knot is required to be tied in a string length of 1100mm and a whole bobbin is given so that you can experiment and adjust after all TTs are meant to be tinkered with lovingly for the ultimate sound.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I am surprised that such a well regarded and expensive TT should depend on a loosely hand knotted string for basic transportation.

I'm surprised too --- but the knot is not going to be loose, and the bottom line is that it either slips, or it doesn't slip, and if it doesn't, then the speed will be constant.

I'm sure there is a whole engineering science of drive belts covering material, shape, form, elasticity. For a turntable, the transmission of vibration from the motor would be a factor.

I seem to remember vaguely that a rubber band has some "stick" and the perpetual stick/release/stick/release introduces a tiny variation in speed. A toothed belt might have similar problems. ("fan belts" were, in my experience, flat, not toothed. Now car radiator fans are driven by independent electric motors, but the remaining function of that belt is to drive the alternator. Mine is not toothed, but longitudinally grooved, functioning I suppose to increase area of grip* --- but we are talking about drive belts doing real work there. A better example might be the "timing chain" which serves to maintain an exact and precise alignment of components. This one has to cope with both load and precision)

Anyway, nylon (so long as this is not just being used as a synonym for synthetic) has some elasticity.

It seems like a hassle for a customer who has just spent a lot of money on a device. This time next year, Asit may be able to tell us that it turned out to be a tie-once-and-forget method.

One thing is sure: in twenty years, when the model might be long since obsolete, he is never going to be frustrated by the hunt for a specific, no-longer-made drive belt.



*EDIT... and alignment

 

[malvai]

I am surprised that such a well regarded and expensive TT should depend on a loosely hand knotted string for basic transportation.
I don't remember ever having seen such a method used in TTs. It is either direct drive or string driven.

Cheers

Venkat a lot of people that i know use dental floss as string for their VPI turntables... reportedly, it works beautifully!

 

[dillihifi]

High end TTs are meant to be tinkered with. Only the low end ones are fill it shut it forget it kind with even the stylus is automatic you press a button the platter rotates, the stylus moves to the record rim, lowers itself, plays the side and on reaching the end it automatically raises itself and returns to base. (I also have one of that kind btw it is a portable stereo with inbuilt amp and speakers and also battery powered). Many adjustments are done by tools etc but finally it is tuned by ear.

 

[Asit]

Thad,

Why and how a cartridge should break in? I was thinking about this and frankly could not understand it at all: the needle is made of diamond and it is very hard. How would a diamond reshape itself in a vinyl groove which is not as hard and quite brittle? This was the question I needed an answer to. I was expecting somebody to come up with a satisfactory answer to your question (mine too), but since no one came forward, I have done a bit of search on my own.

Everybody on the net (people at sites like audiokarma, audiogon and the like) agrees to a man that all cartridges do break in a gradual manner. Some do it rather quickly, i.e., in the first 20 hours, some like Koetsu take a longer time, up to 100 hours or even beyond, some show less sonic change, some show more, the usual stuff, I'd say.

Then I found something more interesting. Some member in a forum (probably audiogon) proclaims that the cart break-in is due to the cantilever suspension becoming more flexible for the cantilever to move as desired. I searched more with the suspension and break-in and found more support for this scenario. Here is the summary.

A cartridge basically has 4 parts: the stylus tip (in our case the diamond), the stylus cantilever, the stylus suspension, and the cartridge body which houses the magnets and ultimately responsible for transforming the mechanical signal into electromagnetic signal (something similar to a microphone). Now the cantilever suspension is the support from where the cantilever hangs, it is made of rubber (actually some polymer) and is initially stiff and cannot function smoothly resulting in a less than ideal transmission of the mechanical signal. The suspension can also become stiff if a cartridge is left unused for a long time, in this case it may be beyond anything to revive the cartridge for proper operation.

I am producing a link from Green Mountain Audio Green Mountain Audio - how-to-choose-a-turntable . Please scroll down quite a bit until you find a section on "The Suspension". It is described there.

Regards.

 

[Asit]

While I was busy thinking about and looking for a physical explanation of a TT cart break-in, I am now pleasantly finding that there has been an interesting discussion on the string being used as a belt.

Well, operationally, from an user point of view, I do not see any difference between a rubber belt, a nylon string or a dental floss, except that in the latter 2 cases, one has to measure the length and tie a small knot with 2 open ends. But as I see, it is a rather trivial job. Neither the rubber nor the nylon string (or the floss) is a fix-it-forget-it thing. Rubber belts need to be changed periodically, so are these strings. No vendor gives a lifetime supply of belts along with the table, in this case I have 200m bobbin-length of this string, no need to order extra length for a long time. In addition to other sonic disadvantages, the rubber can be sticky, as mentioned by Thad, especially in a hot, moist and humid country like India.

The string tension is important, but not as crucial. The key is, as Thad says,

the bottom line is that it either slips, or it doesn't slip, and if it doesn't, then the speed will be constant.

and it should not be loose (in that case, tension = 0). That's all. There is quite a bit of tolerance with usable value of the tension for proper operation. One also has to take into account the surface smoothness/roughness properties of the side of the platter and a great portion of the string is actually physically in contact with the platter. The portion of the string that is not in contact with anything is actually quite small and this is the only portion where the tension has to be maintained. It is of course much easier to maintain a desired tension over a shorter length of the string, and as a result elasticity/rigidity properties of the string become less important.

Regards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

I am producing a link from Green Mountain Audio Green Mountain Audio - how-to-choose-a-turntable . Please scroll down quite a bit until you find a section on "The Suspension". It is described there.

That is exactly the sort of thing I had in my un-informed mind about wearing in. Also, a very interesting article.

 

[Hiten]

I am surprised that such a well regarded and expensive TT should depend on a loosely hand knotted string for basic transportation. I am quite sure the tension on the string will affect the speed of the platter. I am also sure a nylon thread can be fabricated of high quality that will keep it's tension and diameter for some time, and then need to be replaced. A better method would be a geared nylon belt very similar to what is used for radiators in cars. That would guarantee a perfect speed as the gears would decide the rotation speed of the platter.

I don't remember ever having seen such a method used in TTs. It is either direct drive or string driven.

Cheers

It is/was very obvious to be little apprehensive about 'the knot' (including me). But the nylon thread in discussion is 1/10th of the mm and knot is very small and all the gyan I gathered from scheu tells me this negligible knot (which I guess one imagines to be big twisting and turning of thick rope) out weighs sound degradation caused by speed variations+vibrations of rubber belt deformation caused by speed adjusting circuit and motor. If one thinks of everything in microscale it is not a problem.
On the other hand geared nylon belt will give you more torque than required which instead of being good will transmit vibrations easily, think of it as platter connected directly to the motor. Nylon thread being thin gives accurate speed at negligible transmission of unwanted motor noise and vibration.

As said in my earlier post not nitpicking just sharing some fun information.

 

[Asit]

Folks,
More on the strings.

Last night I tried a string which is about 2 cms longer from knot to knot (the one Jochen made for me was about 94 cms knot-to-knot). This new one produced quite a bit of improvement. The clarity, tonality, soundstage and dynamics all improved. It seemed that the motor had an easier time driving the platter with this new string, because when I switched off the motor, the platter still kept on rotating for a considerable time more than with the previous string (only drawback is that it takes now perhaps a couple of seconds for the platter to lock the speed). The 6moons review actually mentions that Scheu insists that the string should be just tight enough, rather than being on the tight side; the best sonics are obtained that way. That's why I think they recommend a length of 110 cm to start with, then keeping 6cmx2=12cm for ease of tying the knot, one is left with just about 98cm for the effective length of the string-belt. We settled for about 97cm, and found the results quite fantastic. The player now has about 13-14 hours on it. This is definitely another reason for the sound to really open up. Thanks for everybody's concerns and valuable inputs.

Regards.

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Pitch and rhythm are the essence of music, and both are factors of time. The rotation of a turntable or the movement of a tape both have great potential to get this wrong. Of course, the turntable mechanism also has potential to transfer factors of motor vibration into the "mix" too.

My turntable is a very ordinary and very imperfect, consumer-level Dual (and seldom used these days) and I don't have any experience with higher-level equipment. Just opinion (I can be dogmatic about certain aspects of computers, but not about turntables ) but it seems much more likely, at this stage, that wearing-in is responsible for changes. Who can tell? But if you repeat the string-length experiment after several months of use, I think it will be a more reliable experiment, with the most-important other variable of the cartridge being less relevant.

On the topic of wearing in, as well as the cartridge, I suspect that there must be some settling of the motor bearings, even of the platter bearing itself too.

Probably, on this most analogue of analogue recorded-music sources, everything counts!

Way outside the world of hifi, but we bought a new motor pump a few months ago, and were disappointed at how noisy it was. Now, after a few months, it is considerably less noisy. Have to wonder, though, how much of the change is mechanical and how much is psycho-acoustic!

 

[Thad E Ginathom]

Thinking about this thread, yesterday, Asit's experiences, and the whole thing of above-consumer-level turntables, it occurred to me that, for the non-musician music listener, the experience of a turntable is more akin to the experience of a musical instrument, whereas the rest of the audio chain, however exotic, remains within the realm of electronics.

Perhaps a violin maker would readily appreciate the design and material considerations, even down to a piece of string, that go into making a turntable

 

[prem]

In a direct drive or idler drive table, life is a lot simpler. Most of them are pretty much simple plug and play.

 

[Asit]

Thad and prem,

I do not completely agree. Firstly, belt-drive TTs have their advantages too. I am far from an expert, but I expect some support for my statement here from the experts, including you two. I suppose this has been discussed before in this forum, though.

Secondly, the only tweak I had to do (may be that too I did not have to, but did it any way) was the string length, and that too only once. It was a pretty simple tweak to actually implement and took a maximum of 5 minutes. The TT was all set up firstly at the Scheu factory and then by Jochen. I didn't even have to worry about cart alignment, tone arm balancing with counterweight, anti-skating force etc.

Thridly, believe me it's a lot simpler than tweaking with an instrument. A sitar or a violin is a completely different domain. I am a musician myself, and have to work at times pretty hard to keep as simple things as my tamburas and tablas in order. I lived 14 years abroad, and had to learn a bit about how to maintain these things in top condition when no other help was available.

Fourthly, a 1L total system (including speakers at 40K, and amp+CDP 60K) which is not considered high end also needs to be tuned and tweaked to give optimal results. Things like speaker placement with respect to the room, speaker stands, system matching including cables (however budget products they may be), proper stable power management, regular cleaning of all terminals and connectors, cleaning of the speakers etc etc are to be done, and if done properly this 1L system can most likely be made to sound better than a 2L system which is ill-conceived and poorly maintained. Very little in this world from equipments to human relationships is fix-it-forget-it type.

I hope you guys agree with my views .

Regards.