nervous to upgrade to Digital..

[lucksin]

The title sums up the state of my mind. since the time i have stepped into the Hi-Fi world i have been using so to say the most cost effective solution as my source, a starting range DVD player from samsung to feed my amplifier. I have been content so to say and sound has been apt.

Recently i got hold of my iPod after ages which i seemed to have lost and i started playing music through ipod directly feeding my amp's aux input. i have anticipated the sound to be better since its a dedicated music device or atleast at par with my DVD playback. but to surprise the sound from ipod wasn't anywhere near to my current source. it was muddy and it lacked separation of instrument.

CD's being played in a so to say 'cheap' DVD player which costed a fraction of my iPod was way fluidic, cleaner and enjoyable than ripping the same CD's with lossless format in itunes to ipod. i tried with many CDs and high bit rate MP3s but it was a complete waste.

off recently i have been contemplating(i have been planning for long but now i am sure what i want) an upgrade to a dedicated DAC-pre(Naim v1) and PA(NAP100) and sell of my integrated but i seriously am nervous if complete digital solution will be an upgrade since its not possible to get an audition at home with my setup they way i have been used to listing to music.

 

[Sawyer]

CD's being played in a so to say 'cheap' DVD player which costed a fraction of my iPod was way fluidic, cleaner and enjoyable than ripping the same CD's with lossless format in itunes to ipod. i tried with many CDs and high bit rate MP3s but it was a complete waste.

off recently i have been contemplating(i have been planning for long but now i am sure what i want) an upgrade to a dedicated DAC-pre(Naim v1) and PA(NAP100) and sell of my integrated but i seriously am nervous if complete digital solution will be an upgrade since its not possible to get an audition at home with my setup they way i have been used to listing to music.

A digital solution will not be an upgrade to sound quality, but it will add a lot of features and convenience.

Before buying any new kit, make sure it has a made for iPod/Iphone USB socket that takes digital signals from the I device. And test that to see if the I pod plugged into it, sounds of the same quality as a CDP. I have used this solution for many years, and in my case, the sound quality is exactly the same. This test should be possible at the dealer with your i Pod and your music on it in lossless rips.

 

[apk]

CD's being played in a so to say 'cheap' DVD player which costed a fraction of my iPod was way fluidic, cleaner and enjoyable than ripping the same CD's with lossless format in itunes to ipod. i tried with many CDs and high bit rate MP3s but it was a complete waste.

One of the reasons that you could be getting poor quality from the iPod is because you are playing music through the iPod's built in DAC - so by the time the music is fed to the amplifier, your music has already lost it's hi-fidility. It's the same effect as playing music through the headphone out of your laptop.

Even though I am not a digital guy (my source is primarly a CD player), I do believe that digital music has it's advantages and conveniences when done right. The key here is 'when done right'. For that you will need at-least a decent DAC to start with.

There are many FMs who have gone completely the digital way and are very happy with their source setup (mostly Music PC feeding DACs, digital files ripped in lossless format). You could get in touch with some of them and give their systems a listen to get an idea

Best,
APK

 

[lucksin]

@sawyer : thanks, but isnt a 100k worth DAC should be an upgrade comparative to a common class DVD player or ipod when you say digital solution will not be an upgrade?

@apk : but isnt ipod suppose to be better at music i mean at least comparative to a DVD player which is like very cheap and ipod is at least four times the cost? i am hard pressed to think iPod must be having a much better DAC compared to dvd player ? if i put it, the ipod was harsh or is digital sounds harsh ?

i agree the chain has to be good at all links and i believe a naim DAC is comparatively one of the best withen its price point. i started this thread to get in touch with all who have moved completely to digital sources.

 

[Sawyer]

@sawyer : thanks, but isnt a 100k worth DAC should be an upgrade comparative to a common class DVD player or ipod when you say digital solution will not be an upgrade?

@apk : but isnt ipod suppose to be better at music i mean at least comparative to a DVD player which is like very cheap and ipod is at least four times the cost? i am hard pressed to think iPod must be having a much better DAC compared to dvd player ? if i put it, the ipod was harsh or is digital sounds harsh ?

i agree the chain has to be good at all links and i believe a naim DAC is comparatively one of the best withen its price point. i started this thread to get in touch with all who have moved completely to digital sources.

In digital tech, throwing more money doesn't often translate to better audible sound quality. In theory it may be better, but the test is: can you make this out in a precision level matched blind test? If not, why pay for improvements you won't hear?
Marketers will want you to, of course.
My move to all digital has given me a lot more convenience, and a whole lot more access to music, with no loss of sound quality.

 

[lucksin]

I Totally agree that throwing more money doesnt 'always' translate to better sound quality. but in my case i am comparing with the gear that i currently have. i have stopped myself from spending more money on source(CD player) since i always wanted to move to digital saved sources on computer) but now that i have saved enough to make a purchase i am thinking shall i upgrade the CD player or move to Independent DAC.

unfortunately in India there is no scope of home audition to compare and under all circumstances it will be equivalent to blind purchase.

 

[Sawyer]

now that i have saved enough to make a purchase i am thinking shall i upgrade the CD player or move to Independent DAC.

Not sure I understand what you want to accomplish - by the way, CD/DVD players are digital too.
What is your end objective in terms of sound quality/features/convenience as compared to what you have today?

 

[apk]

@apk : but isnt ipod suppose to be better at music i mean at least comparative to a DVD player which is like very cheap and ipod is at least four times the cost? i am hard pressed to think iPod must be having a much better DAC compared to dvd player ? if i put it, the ipod was harsh or is digital sounds harsh ?

Disclamer: I do not own an iPod - have only heard it on a few occations with the stock earphones.

I don't think the iPod is aimed at the average 'hi-fi' enthusiast. It is meant for people who want to easily and quickly listen to music on a portable device. Most often than not, the music is played in MP3 format, at a compressed bitrate. The earphones used are ordinary, and are not meant to satisfy the 'audiophile' in you. Having said that, it is a great 'consumer' device, and re-defined the portable music player market; but it is far from being an 'audiophile' device. In fact, RWA (red wine audio) offers a mod on the iPod to provide a digital output from the iPod, thus allowing you to connect the iPod to a DAC and get 'high-end' sound. Used this way, the iPod becomes a pure transport providing digital output into your DAC.

Before buying my CD player, I was using a run of the mill LG DVD player as a source. I found the quality of music from this LG DVD player to be better than the output from both my laptop and creative zen MP3 player (both playing lossless files through the headphone socket).

Best,
APK

 

[sidvee]

Recently i got hold of my iPod after ages which i seemed to have lost and i started playing music through ipod directly feeding my amp's aux input. i have anticipated the sound to be better since its a dedicated music device or atleast at par with my DVD playback. but to surprise the sound from ipod wasn't anywhere near to my current source. it was muddy and it lacked separation of instrument.
.

@lucksin,
I am not an expert (India being the tech/outsourcing capital of the world there are so many gurus on everything digital including sound quality etc., hope they chime in here as well), but in my humble opinion this is not the best way to connect the ipod. You need a device which will take the internal dac of the ipod out of the equation, as it does not sound the best.
I have been using a wadia dock (and there are others as well at various price points) with great results, of-course you will need an external dac, but once you bypass the ipod internal dac, it sounds great - at-least to my ears. So you need to get a dock that will have a digital out, which you connect to an external DAC, and you should hear greatly improved SQ.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Sawyer]

it is far from being an 'audiophile' device. In fact, RWA (red wine audio) offers a mod on the iPod to provide a digital output from the iPod, thus allowing you to connect the iPod to a DAC and get 'high-end' sound. Used this way, the iPod becomes a pure transport providing digital output into your DAC.

If used right, it is very much an audiophile device. And you don't need any mods now to extract digital signals, those days are gone. A Marantz with a made for iPod USB socket does exactly that, and does the conversion on its DAC. With lossless files, it cannot be distinguished from the CD which was ripped when played in the Marantz - and in my unit, it is a SACDP.

 

[apk]

If used right, it is very much an audiophile device. And you don't need any mods now to extract digital signals, those days are gone. A Marantz with a made for iPod USB socket does exactly that, and does the conversion on its DAC. With lossless files, it cannot be distinguished from the CD which was ripped when played in the Marantz - and in my unit, it is a SACDP.

Oops....my bad. Good to know that it is a lot easier to get a digital signal out of the iPod than in the earlier days. Any idea how much one of these digital docks would cost? (am talking about a pure digital dock that can connect to an iPod and provide either a coaxial or toslink output)

Best,
APK

 

[Sawyer]

Any idea how much one of these digital docks would cost? (am talking about a pure digital dock that can connect to an iPod and provide either a coaxial or toslink output)

When I was looking for one in 2011, there were just a few - Onkyo had one, and Pure Digital or Cambridge Audio. About 6-7K then I think. But once I got the Marantz SACDP, I stopped looking, it wasn't needed any more.
No idea of the situation today, but I would not be surprised if they are rare. A lot of devices sold today are Dock speakers to a market that doesn't know what a DAC is, and doesn't care. Many new separates have the Marantz kind of socket. And most audiophiles won't look at it because they can't believe that an I pod can be good enough for them in any circumstances. Sum all of that, and you are looking at a shrinking market for such a device.

 

[sidvee]

Any idea how much one of these digital docks would cost? (am talking about a pure digital dock that can connect to an iPod and provide either a coaxial or toslink output)

Well sawyer is right in a way - these docks have evolved to include DAC's etc.
iPod Docks at Music Direct
Above is a link for some options, not sure how many of these are available in India.
I am using a Wadia 170i in a second system that I bought back in '08. It sounds superb, in fact I had 2, but sold one after I moved to computer based transport.
Cheers,
Sid

 

[Sawyer]

Above is a link for some options, not sure how many of these are available in India.

LUXMAN D-100R iPOD DOCK-DAC DOCKING STATION at Music Direct
When they see Luxman housing it, some audiophiles may change their mind about the "lowly" I pod!
Most certainly not the most VFM at USD 500. On the other hand, seen as replacement for a mid level CD player, this kind of device is perfect for someone that wants to use an existing amp that does not have a iPod socket on it. Built in DAC means that there isn't a need for another expense on another box. Pop in an I device with wifi, and one can have high quality, very close to CD quality from internet radio as well.
Very nice. I just wish it also came with digital inputs, to be used as just a DAC, without the iPod.

 

[Sawyer]

PRO-JECT DOCK BOX DIGITAL S at Music Direct
From the same site, this one is a much better deal, at USD 250. Well specified DAC built in. If this one had digital inputs to the DAC, it would be a steal!
These kind of devices make CD players obsolete, and this is bound to happen over time.
PS for the OP: Why would you want to spend a lot of money on the digital equipment you have referred to? These devices perfectly illustrate what I said - digital tech now is such that allied to modern manufacturing tech, throwing more money will give you only bragging rights and psychological satisfaction. Save the money for better speakers - still no digital solution for that.

 

[Sawyer]

Review: Pure i-20 and Pro-Ject Dock Box S Digital
See the above for an even cheaper USD 99 solution, in a review comparing it to the "expensive" USD 250 Project solution.
I am still looking for something like this that also has digital inputs to access the built in high quality DAC, if anyone knows of such a I device dock, do let me know.
I devices have always been audiophile components in disguise. It is just that the disguise has worked too well.

 

[manoj.p]

The title sums up the state of my mind. since the time i have stepped into the Hi-Fi world i have been using so to say the most cost effective solution as my source, a starting range DVD player from samsung to feed my amplifier. I have been content so to say and sound has been apt.

Recently i got hold of my iPod after ages which i seemed to have lost and i started playing music through ipod directly feeding my amp's aux input. i have anticipated the sound to be better since its a dedicated music device or atleast at par with my DVD playback. but to surprise the sound from ipod wasn't anywhere near to my current source. it was muddy and it lacked separation of instrument.

CD's being played in a so to say 'cheap' DVD player which costed a fraction of my iPod was way fluidic, cleaner and enjoyable than ripping the same CD's with lossless format in itunes to ipod. i tried with many CDs and high bit rate MP3s but it was a complete waste.

off recently i have been contemplating(i have been planning for long but now i am sure what i want) an upgrade to a dedicated DAC-pre(Naim v1) and PA(NAP100) and sell of my integrated but i seriously am nervous if complete digital solution will be an upgrade since its not possible to get an audition at home with my setup they way i have been used to listing to music.

Well, I went through your post couple of times. I do understand that you find iPod quality not so good compared to the DVD player. But what I fail to understand is what you find in your current setup with DVD player lacking and what is it that you want to improve by upgrading to another equipment. Without knowing these two - you will be wandering and trying out different equipment to no end. Because you don't have a target to achieve.

So, please take a moment and find out what you find lacking and decide what you want to achieve. Your equipment purchase will depend upon that. Who knows - what you see may be improved by better speakers or placement or completely different thing.

 

[Sawyer]

I fail to understand is what you find in your current setup with DVD player lacking and what is it that you want to improve by upgrading to another equipment. Without knowing these two - you will be wandering and trying out different equipment to no end. Because you don't have a target to achieve.

Excellent advice. In management talk - being busy and being effective are two very different things.

 

[Sawyer]

Any idea how much one of these digital docks would cost? (am talking about a pure digital dock that can connect to an iPod and provide either a coaxial or toslink output)

Another little known but effective/elegant solution is to use Airport Express - another audiophile component in good disguise. Stream from a wifi capable I device to AEX wired to the amp, and you get as much quality as in the file sitting in the handheld, wirelessly. And for those that subscribe to the size matters thinking that frowns on the possible quality of the DAC in the AEX, that can be addressed easily too, if you have enough money to try. Use an optical wire from the same output socket of the AEX, and you get toslink output from it - works if your DAC/amp has optical inputs. The way AEX has one output socket with both analog and digital output capability is ingenious, and unique, afaik. AEX costs about USD 100, another example of how cheap digital tech is today. My experience is that unless you have a very resolving high end system, and are listening carefully late at night, the analog output from AEX cannot be distinguished from that of DACs that are usually bought. A dedicated DAC costing more than Rs 100k may throw up a difference...maybe...that can be discerned audibly in a blind test.
This route eats up battery charge in the handheld at a rapid rate, but that can be addressed by leaving the device connected to the mains.