Norge 1000 vs Marantz 5004 (Now that price diff is just 3.5k)

[chinu_hark]

Don't worry, I have searched the entire forum and have probably read every thread with the word 'Norge' in it before starting a new one. I have an Onkyo HTS3400 but for music, it is abysmal. Hence entering the world of 2Ch Audio.
I have finalized on Wharfedale Diamond 121 (they replaced the 10.1s) after lots of research and would like to keep it fixed and build the rest of the system around it. I need an amp upto 20k max and these are the 2 in that range. Both are good when paired with Wharf so that's not an issue.
Now Norge generally costed half of Marantz and so always won on VFM. But now the difference has shrunk, a lot!
Norge 1000 - ~16.5k
Marantz PM5004 - ~19.5k
Questions:
1) Which is better without considering price?
2) With so little power (35wpc @ 8Ohm) can pm5004 drive 121s to get reference volume without distortion?<---IMP
I'm inclined towards Marantz but don't want to end up with something costlier (due to brand name) but actually weaker.
I'm from Nagpur and an audition is not an option. People who have heard both, Please help.
P.S. Room size 11x13ft, Speakers will be on DIY stands placed wherever they want.

 

[alpha1]

Norge 1000 for 16K ??
Wow, the prices have increased that much!!

You should realize that you should be comparing Norge 2060 with Marantz PM5004 (because of wattage). In fact even then Norge 2060 will beat Marantz.
But then consider this: your Wharfdales will have a sensitivity of about 86 dB/W at 1m with 1000 Hz tone. Which means even 1 W amp will be able to produce 86 dB from the speakers at a distance of 1 meter with 1000 Hz tone.

HOWEVER the the perceived loudness also decreases by 6 dB with doubling of distance from speakers.
-6 dB at 2 m, -12 dB at 4 m, -18 dB at 8 m, and so on ...

***

With each doubling of power, you increase the dB by 3.
So 1 W = 86 dB, 2 W = 89 dB, 4 W = 92 dB, 8 W = 95 dB, 16 W = 98 dB, 32 W = 101 dB, 64 W = 104 dB, 128 W = 107 dB, and so on

So you see a pattern? Doubling the wattage results in 3dB increase.
Doubling the distance results in 6dB decrease.


So where do you sit? At that distance you want to perceive about 90 dB of loudness.
Lets say you sit 4 m away. 90 dB at that distance means 102 dB should be produced at source. How do I get 102 dB at source? By using 32 W amplifier.

So a 32 W amp (Marantz) should be able to produce the desired levels of loudness.
However, 128 W amp (Norge) will allow you to hit 6 dB more sound levels ...

To be frank, I would get Norge. The Wharfdales are too low in sensitivity. Something like Klipsch with >90 dB sensitivity would have suited the Marantz more ...

 

[spirovious]

With wharfedale perhaps Norge will pair better.Norge has better power also.But if you say,you liked both amps with wharfedale,try some variety of music & check which amp has better control on wharfedale(which sounds better with good power).

 

[chinu_hark]

Ok I called Norge directly. I'm sorry for posting wrong prices (that I saw on a site called Technoguru.in which we can safely assume is overpriced).
Norge 2060 9500+650(shipping) = 10,150/-
Norge 1000 12500+800(shipping) = 13,300/-
Marantz pm5004 19,500/-
I also think Norge would be safer. But 2060 or 1000. I've read that the only difference between these 2 is a bigger transformer. Should I pull the trigger on Norge 2060?

 

[denom]

From an erstwhile Norge owner, my advise would be to buy the 2060. Personally found it to be their best amp.
It was paired with their TWR125 Tower Speakers.

 

[spirovious]

Norge 1000 is more warmer,but 2060 is not far behind.Norge 2000 is laid back though.

 

[rpanand25]

Norge 1000 for 16K ??
Wow, the prices have increased that much!!


***


Lets say you sit 4 m away. 90 dB at that distance means 102 dB should be produced at source. How do I get 102 dB at source? By using 32 W amplifier.

So a 32 W amp (Marantz) should be able to produce the desired levels of loudness.


Do you mean to say that full 32 watts is to be used for producing around 90db at 4m using a 86db speaker? is it prudent to run at full volume? In that case how Marantz 5004 fits the bill? since it is 35w/ch maybe u are talking about both channels taken together

 

[alpha1]

Norge 1000 for 16K ??
Wow, the prices have increased that much!!


***


Lets say you sit 4 m away. 90 dB at that distance means 102 dB should be produced at source. How do I get 102 dB at source? By using 32 W amplifier.

So a 32 W amp (Marantz) should be able to produce the desired levels of loudness.

Do you mean to say that full 32 watts is to be used for producing around 90db at 4m using a 86db speaker? is it prudent to run at full volume? In that case how Marantz 5004 fits the bill? since it is 35w/ch maybe u are talking about both channels taken together

If I add both channels together - I will get additional 3dB at my ears ...
So in my case the Marantz will be able to deliver ~93 dB to my ears at 4 m distance.

An amp's rated wattage is usually per channel at distortion free levels.
Otherwise with distortion a 100 W amp can deliver up to 500 W !


Of course when I am drunk, I would want to crank that volume knob to 11/10 ;-), because I want 110 dB at my ears! The Marantz will not be able to deliver this distortion free ... and this lead to speaker damage.

 

[echo77]

From a 2060 owner: For those speaker specs and your room size, go for 2060. Should be perfect for your price range. 1000 will be overkill IMO and it also runs hotter.

The Marantz looks under powered. I have heard it once and didn't find anything extraordinary over the 2060, but that's my ears.

 

[shanindia]

I have 2060 paired with Aviano 2s and the volume knob hardly goes beyond 10 o'clock mark, so it has plenty of power. The savings with 2060 over 1000 could be used for ICs etc.

 

[cha_indian]

In one of our audio meets in Hyderabad, we had a chance to listen to Norge gear. It was second to none when it was compared to very very expensive stuff. I say go for Norge and with the money saved use it for better speakers. Remember, speakers are the ones that make the maximum difference

Norge has launched Pre-power combo ... why don't you try out at Mr Shyam's store ?? I read it some where that it is in a league of its own.

 

[ukjeyaraj]

Norge 1000 for 16K ??
Wow, the prices have increased that much!!

You should realize that you should be comparing Norge 2060 with Marantz PM5004 (because of wattage). In fact even then Norge 2060 will beat Marantz.
But then consider this: your Wharfdales will have a sensitivity of about 86 dB/W at 1m with 1000 Hz tone. Which means even 1 W amp will be able to produce 86 dB from the speakers at a distance of 1 meter with 1000 Hz tone.

HOWEVER the the perceived loudness also decreases by 6 dB with doubling of distance from speakers.
-6 dB at 2 m, -12 dB at 4 m, -18 dB at 8 m, and so on ...

***

With each doubling of power, you increase the dB by 3.
So 1 W = 86 dB, 2 W = 89 dB, 4 W = 92 dB, 8 W = 95 dB, 16 W = 98 dB, 32 W = 101 dB, 64 W = 104 dB, 128 W = 107 dB, and so on

So you see a pattern? Doubling the wattage results in 3dB increase.
Doubling the distance results in 6dB decrease.


So where do you sit? At that distance you want to perceive about 90 dB of loudness.
Lets say you sit 4 m away. 90 dB at that distance means 102 dB should be produced at source. How do I get 102 dB at source? By using 32 W amplifier.

So a 32 W amp (Marantz) should be able to produce the desired levels of loudness.
However, 128 W amp (Norge) will allow you to hit 6 dB more sound levels ...

To be frank, I would get Norge. The Wharfdales are too low in sensitivity. Something like Klipsch with >90 dB sensitivity would have suited the Marantz more ...

Thanks for the detailed information in layman language. This information is very generic and will be helpful.

Though OT, just one doubt. To achieve 89db at 4M distance with an amp if we need 32W, does it mean marantz need to pump in its full volume (since its 32W per channel).

 

[alpha1]

Thanks for the detailed information in layman language. This information is very generic and will be helpful.

Though OT, just one doubt. To achieve 89db at 4M distance with an amp if we need 32W, does it mean marantz need to pump in its full volume (since its 32W per channel).

It is not as easy as that.
Amp will try to deliver what the load demands. The same amp can deliver greater power to a smaller impedance.

That's why we have two distortion free ratings for an amp: like 100W for 8Ohm speakers, and 150W for 4 Ohm speakers.

Now since Marantz is rated as
Output Power 35W (8 ohms), 45W (4 ohms) (20Hz - 20kHz)

And since Wharf speakers impedance will be somewhere around 6 Ohms, the Marantz can actually deliver slightly higher power (distortion free) than 35W.
But it is running close to being out of breath.

Now do you want to know the volume knob position?
Not possible since the volume knob position depends on the logarithm of ratio of output to input (=gain).

If your input signal is already hot (means loud), the amplifier gain needs to be small to reach 35W output. This means low reading on the volume knob.

If your input signal is weak, the amplifier gain needs to be large to reach 35W output. This may require you to turn the knob to full.

There can be cases where the input signal is so weak that in spite of you turning the volume knob to full, you still get low output!

 

[ukjeyaraj]

Thanks once again for the detailed reply.

 

[sonosphere]

.....
I'm from Nagpur and an audition is not an option. People who have heard both, Please help.

I haven't heard both... If you like warm presentation, you won't regret Norge 1000 + Wharfe bookshelf combo (I used to have Norge 1000 + wharfe 9.2).

Wharfe bookshelves have a bottom end heft that few bookshelf speakers have at that price. However it's woofer can't be driven well by a weak amp. A weak amp will make it sound hollow. The Norge 1000 can sure drive these wharfe's well. As Denom said in earlier post, even Norge 2060 can sound good with these. Reg PM5004 you may have to judge performance by web-reviews since you can't audition.

regds,
Sonosphere

 

[gadgetcrazy]

I have been tinkering with the idea of getting an amp myself. Had bought Norge Millenium M2k speakers last year from a fellow Hifier. What would be the recommendation? Norge 2060?
I listen to all kinds of music (doesnt mean I am an expert but just that I like all kinds of music).

 

[Deleted member 45006]

Norge 2060 is good bang for buck!